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Oldest Remains of Modern Humans Are Identified by Scientists
New York Times (AP Wire) ^ | February 16, 2005 | AP Wire

Posted on 02/16/2005 11:01:16 AM PST by Alter Kaker

NEW YORK (AP) -- A new analysis of bones unearthed nearly 40 years ago in Ethiopia has pushed the fossil record of modern humans back to nearly 200,000 years ago -- perhaps close to the dawn of the species.

Researchers determined that the specimens are around 195,000 years old. Previously, the oldest known fossils of Homo sapiens were Ethiopian skulls dated to about 160,000 years ago.

Genetic studies estimate that Homo sapiens arose about 200,000 years ago, so the new research brings the fossil record more in line with that, said John Fleagle of Stony Brook University in New York, an author of the study.

The fossils were found in 1967 near the Omo River in southwestern Ethiopia. One location yielded Omo I, which includes part of a skull plus skeletal bones. Another site produced Omo II, which has more of a skull but no skeletal bones. Neither specimen has a complete face.

Although Omo II shows more primitive characteristics than Omo I, scientists called both specimens Homo sapiens and assigned a tentative age of 130,000 years.

Now, after visiting the discovery sites, analyzing their geology and testing rock samples with more modern dating techniques, Fleagle and colleagues report in Thursday's issue of the journal Nature that both specimens are 195,000 years old, give or take 5,000 years.

Fleagle said the more primitive traits of Omo II may mean the two specimens came from different but overlapping Homo sapiens populations, or that they just represent natural variation within a single population.

To find the age of the skulls, the researchers determined that volcanic rock lying just below the sediment that contained the fossils was about 196,000 years old. They then found evidence that the fossil-bearing sediment was deposited soon after that time.

Paul Renne, director of the Berkeley Geochronology Center, which specializes in dating rocks, said the researchers made "a reasonably good argument" to support their dating of the fossils.

"It's more likely than not," he said, calling the work "very exciting and important."

Rick Potts, director of the Human Origins Program at the Smithsonian Institution's National Museum of Natural History, said he considered the case for the new fossil ages "very strong." The work suggests that "we're right on the cusp of where the genetic evidence says the origin of modern humans ... should be," he said.

G. Philip Rightmire, a paleoanthropologist at Binghamton University in New York, said he believes the Omo fossils show Homo sapiens plus a more primitive ancestor. The find appears to represent the aftermath of the birth of Homo sapiens, when it was still living alongside its ancestral species, he said.


TOPICS: Culture/Society; Miscellaneous; News/Current Events
KEYWORDS: barrysetterfield; biblehaters; carbondating; cdk; commondescent; creation; creationism; crevolist; design; dolphin; ethiopia; evolution; fossils; godsgravesglyphs; homosapiens; humanorigins; intelligentdesign; lambertdolphin; ldolphin; lightspeeddecay; oldearth; origins; paleontology; pioneer; radiometric; radiometry; remains; setterfield; sitchin; smithsonian; speedoflight; vsl; youngearth
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To: Messianic Jews Net

If you had lived a few hundred years ago, you would be arguing that the earth was the center of the solar system. You do not still cling to that old belief, do you?


41 posted on 02/16/2005 12:37:03 PM PST by WildTurkey (When will CBS Retract and Apologize?)
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To: furball4paws
Haven't I heard somewhere that Ethiopia was the site of the Garden of Eden? From what I've seen, it doesn't too appetizing now.

Things change over time. There were once Hippos in the Thames river in England. The Sahara used to be a lush savana. Weather patterns change, continents move around, seas become lakes and vice-versa, nothing is truly static.

42 posted on 02/16/2005 12:40:24 PM PST by wyattearp (The best weapon to have in a gunfight is a shotgun - preferably from ambush.)
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To: Alter Kaker
Given that no scientist worth his degree would believe that C14 dating could even give an age of 200,000 years or thereabouts, I would think not.

Seems to be a bit of creationist distraction to me.
43 posted on 02/16/2005 12:55:27 PM PST by Dimensio (http://angryflower.com/bobsqu.gif <-- required reading before you use your next apostrophe!)
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To: furball4paws
Do you have a visual link of the current status of the Homo ancestry?

These aren't up-to-the-minute, but it's what I've got:
Human Ancestors.
Comparison of all Hominid skulls.

44 posted on 02/16/2005 12:58:54 PM PST by PatrickHenry (<-- Click on my name. The List-O-Links for evolution threads is at my freeper homepage.)
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To: Alter Kaker
That's all very interesting, LightCrusader, but was Carbon 14 dating used in the study cited here?

Everybody's chuckling at you because carbon dating can only be used back to about 50,000 years.

PatrickHenry may have a link on his homepage to radiometric dating. It was a fairly simple article to follow for non-scientists. Or you can google on your own.

45 posted on 02/16/2005 12:59:10 PM PST by <1/1,000,000th%
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To: <1/1,000,000th%
Everybody's chuckling at you because carbon dating can only be used back to about 50,000 years.

No, nobody's chuckling at me, because the question was rhetorical. It's patently obvious that radiometric dating isn't at issue here, which is why the (spurious) attack on its validity is totally irrelevent.

46 posted on 02/16/2005 1:04:24 PM PST by Alter Kaker (Whatever tears one may shed, in the end one always blows one’s nose.-Heine)
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To: <1/1,000,000th%
PatrickHenry may have a link on his homepage to radiometric dating.

This may suffice for the purpose:
Radiometric Dating: A Christian Perspective. A Bible-believing Christian's viewpoint

47 posted on 02/16/2005 1:04:45 PM PST by PatrickHenry (<-- Click on my name. The List-O-Links for evolution threads is at my freeper homepage.)
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To: PatrickHenry

Wow! That was quick!

Do you do home delivery? ;)


48 posted on 02/16/2005 1:10:24 PM PST by <1/1,000,000th%
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To: Alter Kaker; LightCrusader

All are free to mention their links or personal details. The purpose of Free Republic is to persuade by expression of facts, logic, opinion, and belief. Those who reject persuasion in areas of religion or philosophy will be uncomfortable here. Alter Kaker has chosen to place religious symbols on his own homepage (i.e., the Israeli flag), but rejects my use of religious symbols in my identity, so may be one of the uncomfortable.


49 posted on 02/16/2005 1:13:14 PM PST by Messianic Jews Net
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To: Alter Kaker

I apologize. I misread your earlier post.

That's what I get for trying to sneak in some FR time while watching the clock between meetings.

I take back all my chuckling. ;)


50 posted on 02/16/2005 1:13:26 PM PST by <1/1,000,000th%
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To: Messianic Jews Net
1. FreeRepublic is a site devoted to conservative commentary and opinion. It is not a venue for prostelyzation or advertising. Your handle attempts at both.

2. The Israeli flag is no more of an attempt at religious conversion than the Norwegian flag is. It's a statement of nationality. Have I ever tried to convert you to my religion? No? Then please afford me the same courtesy and refrain from using a political forum to try to convert me to yours.

51 posted on 02/16/2005 1:19:00 PM PST by Alter Kaker (Whatever tears one may shed, in the end one always blows one’s nose.-Heine)
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To: <1/1,000,000th%
Do you do home delivery?

Darwin Central has a Domino's Pizza place in the lobby. If the question comes in at the right time, no problem.

52 posted on 02/16/2005 1:23:55 PM PST by PatrickHenry (<-- Click on my name. The List-O-Links for evolution threads is at my freeper homepage.)
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To: PatrickHenry

LOL!

Pizzaaaaaaaa...


53 posted on 02/16/2005 1:25:33 PM PST by <1/1,000,000th%
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To: Messianic Jews Net
So funny. The evolutionists dated the fossils by the rocks. They also like to date rocks by the fossils. Who wants to try to prove they didn't?

When you get a chance to read Radiometric Dating: A Christian Perspective which PatrickHenry linked to in #47, please come back & tell us what you think. Seriously.

54 posted on 02/16/2005 1:37:00 PM PST by jennyp (WHAT I'M READING NOW: Debugging Windows Programs by McKay & Woodring)
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To: WildTurkey
You mean like the YEC's do when they say evolution is junk science because the earth is only 6000 years old ...

Well, are we arguing evidence for evolution or trying to construct a defense of "everyone else does it". I don't much care what YEC's do for the moment. Their arguments stand or fall on their merits same as evolution's. If you're surrendering the point and assenting to the fact that the evidence isn't what it's claimed to be, then we're finished and it may be time to move on. But, changing the subject when the chips are down ain't workin.

55 posted on 02/16/2005 1:38:42 PM PST by Havoc (Reagan was right and so was McKinley. Down with free trade. Hang the traitors high)
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To: PatrickHenry
I read the whole thing. Thanks for the link-it's very interesting.
56 posted on 02/16/2005 2:06:11 PM PST by Blowtorch
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To: Havoc

I was being sarcastic and referring to your argument which has no legs to stand on. Just false science propaganda.


57 posted on 02/16/2005 2:12:41 PM PST by WildTurkey (When will CBS Retract and Apologize?)
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To: Messianic Jews Net
Darwinism transformed "geologic systems" or zones into "geologic eras".

No it didn't. It didn't change their status one bit.

Since you admit geologic zones are compatible with creation and design,

Uh, no. As data they may be compatible or incompatible with any given theory, as the case may be. But I said nothing about that issue (yet). I was addressing myself to the manner in which geologic systems are recognized and defined, and how fossils are used generally in identifying rock units (i.e. the practice of biostratigraphy) in response to your suggestion that circular reasoning is involved.

they cannot prove evolution independently.

They can be used to test evolution (common descent in any case) precisely because the methods used to organize these data are logically independent of and not based on evolution in any way.

Biostratigraphy, as the name suggests, correlates biological remains (bio) with rock sequences (stratigraphy). This is an empirical methodology, possible because of the fact that particular fossils or fossil assemblages are unique to particular rock units or sequences of rock units. Thus fossils do not, in truth, date rocks, though rocks are sometimes used to date other rocks by means of the fossils they contain. I'll explain that statement below.

Biostratigraphy is based upon lithostratigraphy. Lithostratigraphy involves determining the relative sequence of rock units simply by physically tracing them cross country. You might observe, for instance, that unit B overlies unit A at one local, then trace out unit B to another local where it underlies unit C. Having developed a lithostratigraphy for a region, you collect fossils from the various rock units and determine which fossil types, or assemblages of fossil types, are unique to which rock units or sequences of rock units.

Indeed, the biostratigraphic zonation that you have thus worked out may be applied to clarify things in a region were the geology is less clear or more complex than the one in which you worked out your original lithostratigraphy and biozonation, or may be used by someone (as, for instance, a petroleum geologist) who wants to quickly identify a particular rock unit. But note in such cases that the rocks (in the region where you have constructed lithostratigraphies and then biozonations) are dating the rocks (in the cases were you using your biozonations), by means of the fossils, as stated above.

Let me repeat that: Fossils are NOT dating rocks. ROCKS are dating ROCKS, via empirically determined characters (fossils) they happen to share. What we think or believe about the origin of those fossils, or their phylogenetic relationships one to another, and anything of the sort, is irrelevant to the application of this method. As I said before, the fossils might be anything. They could be replaced by some inorganic substitute, like the numbered coins, and the methods would work just as well.

It should also be noted that situations where the geology is unclear are never used in the creation of biostratigraphical zonations. Only sequences of undisturbed strata are used, and the fossil sequences they contain are compared with those of other such instances to test and refine the biozonations, and to create biozones that are valid for larger and larger geographical areas.

Some creationists extend the "circular reasoning" argument by claiming that the geological column is necessarily based upon the idea of evolution, and then used in a circular manner to "prove" evolution. But as I've said the methods of biostratigraphy were used by creationist scientists prior to Darwin to identify and define the major elements of the geological column. The fact that the geological column was constructed entirely by creationists lays to rest this nonsense.

Again, biostratigraphy is independent of evolutionary theory, or of any theory about the origin of the fossilized forms. William Smith, the creationist who developed the method and used it to great benefit while building canals in England during the late 18th century, said as much. As to why the method was possible -- i.e., why fossil assemblages can be uniquely correlated with rock units in the way the method requires -- Smith said that his observations with respect to this phenomena were "unencumbered with theories, for I have none to support." (1817, _Stratigraphical System of Organized Fossils._)

Let me repeat, at the considerable risk of being tediously repetitive, that there is no circularity involved in biostratigraphy, because of the fact that biostratigraphy is _always_ based on lithostratigraphy. Rocks do date fossils, and in a straightforward and highly empirical manner: If undisturbed stratum B overlies undisturbed stratum A, then stratum B is younger, and so the fossils in B are also younger than those in A. Fossils only date rocks as a special (and highly verified) method where you are essentially using rocks to date other rocks.

58 posted on 02/16/2005 2:17:40 PM PST by Stultis
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To: DannyTN
There was nothing to prevent Australopithecines from co-existing with more advanced members of the human line. It is expected that as species proliferate they will compete and only then will predecessor species die out.

This find could date to a time early in the game.

59 posted on 02/16/2005 2:19:22 PM PST by muir_redwoods
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To: Havoc
If you're surrendering the point

Uh, pardon, but what "point" would WildTurkey be "surrendering"? You oracularly asserted "when you don't have a leg to stand on..." in reference to the article. What exactly it is you think is lacking in support you did not say or even hint at.

60 posted on 02/16/2005 2:23:18 PM PST by Stultis
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