Posted on 01/26/2005 9:46:21 AM PST by 7thson
When I pulled into the parking lot this morning, I saw a car covered with sacrilegious bumper stickers. It seemed obvious to me that the owner was craving attention. I’m sure he was also seeking to elicit anger from people of faith. The anger helps the atheist to justify his atheism. And, all too often, the atheist gets exactly what he is looking for.
(Excerpt) Read more at townhall.com ...
"Without God, there is no virtue, because there's no prompting of the conscience. Without God, we're mired in the material, that flat world that tells us only what the senses perceive. Without God, there is a coarsening of the society. And without God, democracy will not and cannot long endure. If we ever forget that we're one nation under God, then we will be a nation gone under." -- Ronald Reagan
We disagree on that. All the people in the world will prove you wrong, they are all sinners. You have it precisely backwards. Self interest is the reason people do wrong.
They don't behave themselves and do "right". And we have the inevitable chaos.
No it isn't. You would like it to be, but the issue is the question you cannot answer. I don't blame you for ducking the impossible task.
MineralMan, I have decided to reply at post 290.
I having been reading this thread from the beginning, and
I must say I do believe in a higher power. Don't
know exactly it's nature, can't quote the bible, nor
do I choose to argue all the details. However, it is
plain, that me or anyone else would be infinitely
safer, more respected and in better company with you
than any of the ?theologians? I have read so far.
In other words, chort vozmi, you're eloquent.
I lean towards the ruler nat wanting to give up the money, but I can't argue with you. Pride was probably mixed in there. I can definately see the "atta boy" expectation. But we are in total agreement with that the rich ruler needed to rely on mercy rather than his own goodness.
The church has done a good job of teaching us to be "good" or not "bad" at least. We know not to cuss or drink or smoke or call people names or hate our neighbor and we are good at charity. God-fearing Christians are pretty good at emulating the rich young ruler. The church has done a lousy job of teaching us to be reliant on Grace alone. We are too busy being good sometimes.
Good points. Unfortunately, today, too many churches are now failing in even what they were once successful in. I fully agree with you on the iddues about Christians being too busy being "good". I realized recently in my own walk that I was so busy battling against my fleshly desires, trying to be a "good" christian, that I had strayed from my relatiosnship with God.
Okay, I see where you're coming from. Thanks for explaining!
As long as you are in denial, the road won't change.
Did you have a point? If so, what was it?
LOL! You got that right! Every Christian religionary thinks his version is the only right one and condemns everyone else who disagrees with him. The wars of religion are still on, but are in their "Cold War" mode. Lots of hate disguised as love out there in the fractured Christian world. It's possible to get into a nasty argument over Biblical translations or inerrancy, but then we have more serious theological battles that go on all the time, these days about Jesus himself. Mama mia, it's tiring!
You are wrong, but, it doesn't matter, because to you, there is no right or wrong ultimately, so don't worry, be happy. LOL
I leave you with this question;
If there is no God, it doesn't matter. If there is a God, what could possibly matter more?
Sure they will! All you have to do is appeal to their reason, and point out how not acting like a barbarian will give them better returns than making themselves an outcast from other, more civilized folks. Appeal to their greed, if nothing else. That often works...and that's what I mean by self-interest.
With a screenname like yours, I guess I ought not be surprised that you like to argue. :)
When I die, my body will disintegrate into the various chemicals and molecules that make it up.
But see MM that is just an assumption right? not proof.
I watched a program of a man which is well documented who was a devout atheist, when he was in France on a Lecture about 20 years ago he had a fatal heart attack and was clinically dead, he had an outer body expereince which many people claim to have had,, but anyways when he died he had no vision of a bright light but he did have the most horrific pain from entities who were beating him pulling him literally apart he was in horrible pain a darkness he never had expereinced he yelled and screamed still the pain was there and he was in agony he finally yelled Jesus help me save me and at that point the pain started to go away and he started to see the light needless to say he was brought back to life and he is a Minister today,
I envision this is what you would do also if you experience temporay death as an Atheist.
Your point is well-taken. It is most likely a bias on my part (surprise! :-) since I tend to hugely admire and subscribe to the biblical viewpoint on many if not all subjects.
As some on the thread have mentioned before, one thing I may never understand is: On what do atheists base their concept of morality? For Christians the answer is very easy--God. But for atheists... ?
I think the answer to that question is probably the major barrier that makes the thinking of an atheist and a that of a Christian incompatible.
Fair enough, so you derive meaning from the here and now regardless of permanence.
"One has preached Christianity and has benefitted many lives."
Maybe I'm reading too much into that, but that sounds like an acknowledgement that Christianity has helped people. So it's not that you don't believe Christianity is good, you just don't believe or know how to determine whether it's absolute truth.
I haven't read any Dostoevsky other than that quote. So I'm hoping that doesn't come back to embarrass me.
"Do not make the mistake of believing that Judaims and Christianity have presented a single moral stance throughout its history. It has not. All morality is social. All morality is relative. "
I'm not sure that it hasn't. I think I know where you're going with this. A lot of people think that because the Bible made provisions for servants, slaves and multiple wives, that it sets a different standard. If you read the Old Testament text carefully, these things were exceptions to God's ideal. And the judgements spoken of by Jesus, Paul, Peter and John are every bit as harsh as some of the stuff in the Old Testament.
Both the Old and the New call us to love others as we do ourselves. Some morality may be social (dress, alcohol, etc) but certainly not all. Many are absolute, murder, adultery, theft, etc.
As a human, I value my own life, which leads me to value the lives of others. As a human, I can think and make decisions on morality.
And I hope for your sake that the Lord takes that into consideration on your behalf. But here is what I fear. Here is what I understand. When you stand before a perfect, holy, God who knows no sin, you may have been considerate of others many times. But there will be times that you were not considerate of others. And I know this, only because the scriptures say none are righteous. And without a pardon, you will be condemned for those times which you weren't considerate. Yes, the balance may be tilted more towards good than bad from a human viewpoint, but from a perfect holy God's viewpoint, it's not going to measure up to His expectation.
And that is one of the great differences between Christianity and the rest of the world's religions. They will tell you to improve yourself, so that you will be judged worthy to go to heaven. Christianity tells you to improve yourself, but that you aren't worthy and you better accept that pardon while the gettin is good. And that God will help you and transform you if you put your trust in Him.
The best way to protect my progeny is to save my own a$$ - not hide Jews from Nazis or run into burning buildings to save strangers. The gassed Jews or burned stranger I did nothing to save will have zero effect on the "propagation of [my] genes." To sit idly while Jews are gassed or babies burn in fires is immoral - or amoral at best.
To say that helping people while risking your own existence - and thus the existence of your progeny - is somehow "ingrained" in us through some quirk of evolution sounds about as "logical" as saying this sense of moral duty came from God.
You know, Satan is fine with you not believing in him. Just so long as you don't accept belief in God and reject the message of Christ, Satan chalks that up as a victory for his side.
I absolutely adore that quote, simply for the irony in the history of the reference. "Without God, we're mired in the material, that flat world that tells us..."
Without early Christians stoning those who professed that the world was round, where would we be? ;)
Neither Judaism or Islam ghave a man turned into a God. Prophets yes. The prophets of Israel did not do the things that a self promoted man would do. The prophet of Islam did.
Christianity has a God turned into a man. Not just a partner as Islam falsely claims of Christianity. But the Ancient of Days Himself, wrapped in Human Flesh, to redeem us from our sins.
The things that God has asked us to do boil down to walk humbly before Him and love your neighbor.
There is evidence. No religion has the kind of fulfilled prophecy that JudeoChristianity has. Our consciences speaks to the truth. The Spirit of God speaks the truth directly to our hearts. The miracles and eyewitnesses and secular accounts of those speak of God's confirmation of the prophets and Jesus.
I see that you are an ex-Muslim. I'm glad that you could see clearly enough to get out. But don't make the mistake of thinking all religions are man made. One is not.
Perhaps one clue that you should consider is this. If Islam is a false religion, then what religion did it most hate? And I realize that consideration of Judaism might be a little hard for you, but Christianity is the fulfillment of Judaism. And Islam has hated us both.
I disagree. I think sometimes you should just leave people alone.
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