Posted on 05/16/2004 12:59:53 PM PDT by jmstein7
There is now a debate raging on FR about trolls, honest dissent, and the value of free speech. I would like to weigh in on this and then solicit opinions from all of you on the subject.
The First Amendment was a response to the English experience of viewpoint suppression by requiring licensing of the press – i.e. requiring pre-approval of books – the doctrine of construction treason, which held that writing can constitute treason, a capital offense, and the law of seditious libel, criminalizing unfavorable reporting of the government. However, the debate in the United States did not truly reach maturity until the early half of the 20th Century.
Justice Holmes (in, I believe, Abrams v. United States) famously averred that “[t]he best test of truth is the power of the thought to get itself accepted in the competition of the market.” Even opinions which we “loathe and believe to be fraught with death” should not be suppressed, “unless they so imminently threaten immediate interference with the lawful and pressing purposes of the law that an immediate check is required to save the country.”
Alternatively, the self governance rationale posits that, because the general welfare depends on the citizens making enlightened decisions, in a democratic society, free expression and discussion are essential to deciding matters of public policy. The autonomy rationale holds that for an individual to regard himself as autonomous, he must see himself as free to decide which beliefs to hold. The First Amendment is also justified on the basis that it checks the abuse of power by public officials, it diffuses dissent by creating an atmosphere of open discussion, and it fosters a tolerant society.
I am inclined to agree with Justice Holmes – and that is why I support, as I think most FReepers do – honest dissent. Although such expression of opinion may make us angry, as the Court insinuated in Terminiello v. Chicago, the most valuable expression may well be that which because it is provocative and challenging, produces these emotions. This type of debate aids us in our perpetual search for the truth.
There is no such thing as a false idea. However pernicious an opinion may seem, we depend for its correction not on the conscience of judges and juries, but on the competition of other ideas. However, what we are concerned with is false statement of fact – this type of speech, particularly speech that is intended to be deceptive, adds nothing to public debate. False statements of fact, e.g. intentionally deceptive or libelous utterances, are not within the area of constitutionally protected speech. Deceptive or defamatory speech is “low value speech,” and it adds nothing constructive to the marketplace of ideas. This is why trolls are prohibited – because they add nothing to the debate and exist only to deceive and distort the truth we are seeking.
In a nutshell, we at FR do not support viewpoint discrimination. However, what we do ask for, at a minimum, is open and honest debate as we, together search for the truth. That is, per se, the value of free speech in a Free Republic.
I think you ought to check with Jim.
Is there really a "debate raging on FR about trolls, honest dissent, and the value of free speech."?
Or did you just make that up?
The whole issue of patriotism, dissent, with-us-or-against-us mentality, etc. are especially sensitive these days because we are at war. Peace time issues are in a separate league, simply because there will be a winner and a loser in any given war.
If we lose to Islam, I don't even want to think about the consequences.
There seems to be quite an undercurrent of hostility toward Bush over the election and other domestic issues, and all that is understandable as the natural result of politics. But when it carries over into matters of national security and war time issues, the line must be drawn.
Undermining the security of America from within has become a plank of the Democrat platform, and many, many people are running around with an affinity for the destruction of America, insome cases unconsciously, in some cases not.
Truly, those who are not with us are against us. For example, some of the comments made by Sen. Kennedy just this week clearly provide aid and comfort to the enemy. Put yourself in the shoes of an AlQueda operative and imagine reading his comments. How encouraging would they be?
Mc Carthy was right!
So stifling debate has a lot to do with which debate. Debating a tax increase or a budget item, or a welfare bill is one thing, but war time politics are vastly different. There are people out there who want us dead. Dead! They aren't interested in debate, or having demands met. They want to kill as many of us as they can. They want us to not exist.
We are to defend the Constitution against all enemies, foreign and domestic. Include me in the defenders category.
Beats the hell out of me.
You should get a Purple Heart for that Tagline
Yup. But nothing like publicly posting freepmails to dispell that notion in the future.
The marine was my nephew posting from my computer and it happened as I stated.
I have some experience with banning personal and otherwise and I can tell you there have been some real quick triggers especially under the flag-a-mod system. If you get under the skin of the wrong person on the wrong day, you're toast.
BTTT!!!!!!!
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1135597/posts
You mean threads like the one above wherein great sport was made of a woman for trying to express an opinion about her inability to find a job in IT fresh out of college while the jobs still exist and are being given to foreign nationals - cutting her out of competition for jobs in her own country.
I've just highly generalized her stance and I won't redebate it here; but, she was "zotted" as a troll and abused endlessly for any excuse including her spelling rather than deal with her point. They put a muzzle on her and verbally beat her down.
I have a lot of thoughts on the subject. The more I think about it, the more angry I become. We hear that the difference between conservatives and liberals is that we have ideas. But from the actions of a number of jerks here, it appears that only certain people are allowed to have ideas and then only certain of them are allowed to be presented and only if it's ok with the elitists who will make no bones about trying to destroy you if your position threatens them. I've been the object of such attacks myself and have been here since '98. Some have called me a democrat troll. I voted for republicans and independants
Nationally since I became able to vote by law. I've a long history here speaking on conservative and religious issues.
But as soon as I say something that, though truthful, puts my president (yes MY president) in a bad light on a couple of issues, that is heresy and the elitists become the inquisitors.
People seem to either have forgotten the truism or are using it to great advantage that the Pen is mightier than the sword. A few precise words can do far more to destroy a person than burning them at the stake ever could.
The above thread is not an example of the free exchange of ideas, nor of letting a person be heard. There's no attempt to correct misperceptions. It is admitted that the person was possibly not understood; but, nobody tried. The thread is not an example of what we are supposed to be about. It is bread and circuses. Republicans believe that free trade is harming America at a very basic level. Elitists who are profitting from it in the same party have much to lose if the greater number of us finding fault with it, do away with it.
I have a great story in my life of constantly overcoming obstacles and rising to the occasion by pulling myself up by the bootstraps and relying on faith in God to help me overcome. I made it to a middle class lifestyle on the lower end of middle class after many years of struggle to find a way to do it. And now that I've reached that level in middle age, the government's policies have kicked me out of it. For daring to say such a thing regardless of my response in trying to maintain my middle class position in society, I am a heretic. I don't need anyone feeling sorry for me. I, like anyone else with any sense, just want the government to stop screwing with my life and get out of my way so I can live. I'd like the government not to pull the rug out from under me when I've worked hard to get where I am and under rough circumstances. I don't need jackasses here burning me at the stake for trying to make a point.
Look at the above thread. There are countless like it on FR and far worse. This is not the type of people we are supposed to be. This is the kind of crap that was being reviled as happening on DU when I first came here. Do I have thoughts, yes. There are Trolls at FR; but, they are the people making sport of those with ideas that they don't want to hear. Trolls are not naysayers. They, in the traditional sense of fantasy writing, are big ugly thug-like beings that carry huge clubs and kill humans for food or for sport. The Lord of the Rings shows them as mindless creatures bent on the destruction of men.
Our trolls beat on people when they say things that aren't popular with the ivory tower elitists. And to my mind after all this time, they give credibility to Ross Perot's claims which I heretofore never would have believed.. ever. Knowing the abuse I've taken for daring to speak on some subjects with a handicap and a chronic disease.. If they have no compunction in destroying people who are disadvantaged, how much less compunction do they have in going after people who aren't. It makes me sick. It paints Republicans as hypocrites and it needs to stop yesterday!
A couple of points to remember vis a vis weblogs is that "freedom of speech" only exists on the street corner and "freedom of the press" only exists for the guy that owns a press. This isn't directed at you in particular, but JR has every right to do whatever he wants relative to trolls or anything else for that matter and anybody that doesn't like it can find someplace else to post. The entitlement mentality that says "I should be able to post whatever I want on hardware, software, and bandwidth owned by somebody else" never ceases to amaze me.
Crying towels are portable, it seems.
This is a strange thread
Isnt it obvious? If the interests of the whole FR community arent considered, the website would suffer. The point I am making is that even if Jim Rob is running this website, this is bigger than one person.
I think it has been made clear that, for example, banning trolls that disrupt rather than inform is one way to make this a better experience for the whole community.
So, FreeRepublic is not 100% perfect? So unlike my world!
I'd advise not allowing someone to post to FR on your own computer. If they see two posters from the same ISP, they're liable to think that it's the same person posting under two different screennames. That gets dealt with very harshly around here. You're lucky you didn't get banned as well.
I've rarely had to hit abuse on other freepers except the rare instances where someone has insulted me publicly using foul language or when I get sent hostile freepmails. In that case, most of them are still around and I like that way since I never ask people to be banned. There are other threads where I've seen exchanges between people where the discussions is really vile, otherwise sometimes a 'cool it' will do.
This statement is arrant nonsense.
False idea: the Moon is made of green cheese.
False idea: Marxism is the ideal social order.
False idea: UFOs come from the center of the hollow earth, and are piloted by Chupacabras.
To be false an idea must be in conflict with nature; with observation, with logic. To be true an idea must be in agreement with nature, observation, logic.
I have many more examples.
--Boris
Reno investigated Clinton more than Bush did?..What a remark! The President could never have investigated the exPresident...think about it! It may be hard to take but ex President Clinton made out like a bandit and all he lost was the ability to present arguments to the Supreme Court!.... and a few bucks that he and Hillary can make up in book sales.
Request already submitted. That's the second request today. This morning I stubbed my toe getting the morning paper (which had about the Iraqi War on the cover so I think it's war-related). I've got a whole closet full of Purple Hearts so when I throw them over the wall in protest, I'll have plenty left over to run for president myself someday.
I support viewpoint discrimination, but try to maintain a civil level of discourse.
LOL again. Is there a low-carb beer I could buy you?
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