Posted on 05/20/2003 4:18:33 PM PDT by RMrattlesnake
By Darren Morrison
When I got saved it was not in what I would call a spiritually grounded church. But I did get saved according to scriptures, I did repent of my sin turning toward GOD and believing in the lord Jesus Christ. But I was taught early on that all churches were Good as long as they taught about Jesus. I mean to say that they accepted most doctrines but not all. They were critical of Mormons and Jehovah’s Witnesses, but not much more than that. So I went to several churches. I wanted to get as much of Christ as I could. My church at the time met on Sundays and had a bible study on Thursday night. So on Wednesday I went to a Pentecostal church and on Tuesday there was a home church that had a bible study. At that time I was very lonely. I was recently divorced and so I wanted to go to church every day of the week. My desire to be in church as often as I did was a sign of my hunger as well as my loneliness and it was a good thing to desire for sure. But I was a babe in Christ and didn’t know any better. I had a non-inspired Bible, The NIV that kept me hungry.
Well after a while I would stumble and a fall. And get discouraged but I trudged forward because I knew that God was real and what was in my heart was real. The Church I started in was a little charismatic. I call it today charismatic lite. Because they were not obviously charismatic it was more a side line a thing that some people did and was accepted. The Vineyard runs the gambit. Some are very charismatic even to the point of insanity and others are almost like a southern Baptist church. I don’t know any better way to explain it. But when I left the Vineyard I began to go to a church called the Potters House. The Potters House was a tongue speaking Pentecostal church where they didn’t hide their tongue speaking.
To start out I will tell you where I first saw and heard the craziness. I was in California. I was still a babe in Christ, but I wanted to grow. But even though I was not well versed I know the things I saw were not right. I saw holy laughter, where people would whip them selves up in a euphoric state then someone would say something funny and people would start to laugh. As the mood grew people would laugh even more and silliness would arise. They said it was the holy sprit, so I would pray for the Holy Spirit to do it to me and nothing would happen. Sometimes I was the only one who was not laughing. One might think that I would feel something was wrong with me, but it wasn’t. Because I know I was saved and I know that GOD would hear my prayers, so somehow this was wrong. I remember that when I was a kid my brother and I would start laughing at things and as it escalated we would laugh at anything because we were in on of those child like moods and we could laugh at anything. Laughter is a wonderful thing and laughter makes you feel good. But this was not of the Holy Spirit.
Well then there was what followed this holy laughter it was drunk in the spirit. Now this was nonsense. I knew it. I could see through it event though I was so young in the lord. The folks at the California Vineyard may have been so called Christians. That means I think some were like me truly saved and some were not because they only did the 123 repeat after prayer. But these leaders and ones who have been believers longer than me were in fact not much, if at all, more mature than me. The Vineyard is a church of easy believism they only milk-feeds the flock. And they read uninspired watered down versions of the bible. So these were milk-fed Christians at best. Scripture could not back up this drunk in the spirit business. I asked my small group leader and he could not answer me.
But the most bizarre thing done in was the animal noises. There was a small group of people who would say that they were lead by the spirit to make Lion noises. They would roar like lions. Using bible verses that mentioned lions to somehow justify this. But when they got on all fours and roared some got on the ground and shook and there was even one that barked like a dog. Well this was not the spirit of GOD. It was frightening and my wife who had not been saved was frightened. I did the right thing. I walked out and never darkened the door of that church again. This was an eerie evil sound to hear and not what the Holy Spirit is about.
Well back in Colorado I wound up in a Pentecostal church called the Potters House. They wanted me to experience the Holy Spirit and I could not support that with scriptures so I let it pass. I heard their tongues and it was a bunch of noises that they would repent over and over again. I keep going because the people were nice to me and I was at a very lonely time in my life. I have always been a skeptical Christian I trusted the bible but I do not trust mankind. I ask about this tongues and I read the scriptures and what I could figure it was actual languages not this repeating nonsense. I took the pastor aside and asked where does the bible support what you are doing he pointed out Acts 2. Well I had to again leave another church because the tongues in Acts 2 was not what they were doing. You see Tongues is nothing more than an old word for languages. That is all the word means, not some gibber gabber as they do. The miracle of language was intelligible, orderly speech communication and expression in foreign tongues. Whole churches are built upon this misinterpretation of scriptures.
With all this silliness that you hear in the Charismatic churches. This really boils down to one thing. These people are seeking experiences. Thay want signs and wonders and so they make them up to make them feel as though they are close to GOD on their terms. They make demands of GOD in there prayers as if they have the power to tell GOD what to do. I have heard them pray and say “come holy sprit come” As if the Holy Spirit is their dog they can tell to heel. Then there is the mayhem of people feeling that the Holy Spirit is making them interrupt the service. I Corinthians 14:27. If any man speaks in an unknown tongue, let it be by two, or at the most by three, and that by course; and let one interpret. 28. But if there be no interpreter, let him keep silence in the church; and let him speak to himself, and to God.
Now I know that some of these people are sincere and most are very nice people and I think many of them are even saved. Many of them have been lea wrong and are really only trying to do what is right by the lord. I know this because I have fellowshipped with them. We must pray for are charismatic friends and co-workers and family members. Maybe the reason I didn’t fall for all this hokey pokey was that some one was praying for me. One thing if you have the Holy Spirit with you it is there always. You receive the Holy Spirit the moment you repent and believe not after. The Holy Spirit is not there for you to make it do what you want. It is there to make you do what GOD wants you to do. We need the Holy Spirit to help us understand the bible, GOD’s word. We need the Holy Spirit to help us since when something is not right like false doctrines.
And you believe you have to ability to infallible interpret scripture…
That last part could be construed as some gratuitous prod bashing.
Of course... It's missing a few books from the Old Testament... however, the KJV often suffers the same problem.
At least the KJ uses dignified language... and my copy includes the missing books in a separate section...
Actually, I always believed that Christ instituted the sacraments, and that the pope is His representative on earth. These things are supported by Scripture, even by protestant bibles. Now, the last thing, is a different story. The so-called "new mass" was the by-product of the Vatican II council. It may have made easier for people to worship since it was always in the local language, but it took away the true meaning behind the Mass: just as the Jews of the Old Testament had their own sacrificial rituals, the Church of the New Testament had to have something along those lines as well - after all, proper sacrifice is necessary to make worship truly pleasing to God.
There is a lot of symbolism in the Mass that the "new mass" took away. Not only that, the new theology which came from Vatican II de-emphasized true morality, introduced ideas not even some "liberal" Catholics would accept (like all religions are equal and can lead to salvation). . . and plenty of other stuff that may take volumes to write about. . . but basically, Vatican II really started a new religion which I couldn't be a part of any longer.
Fair enough. . . now, how do you discern whether or not the glosslalia is really from God? It's easy to be deceived by the enemy - who Scripture says can easily appear as an angel of light. Same for prophecies.
Just out of curiosity, does the Bible that you read now -- the "inspired Bible"-- have 1 Corinthians Chapter 12 through 14 in it?
1Co 14:39-40 So, my brethren, earnestly desire to prophesy, and do not forbid speaking in tongues;
but all things should be done decently and in order.
Were you in Corinth in AD 55?
And then tell me whether or not the spiritual gifts came to an end, and if so, then tell me when they came to an end and which ones came to an end and why they came to an end.
Make your best argument from scripture.
It is clear from Chapter 13 that these gifts would cease when Christ returned and not before. We still see in a glass darkly. We do not know in full. We need spritual gifts. We ought to covet them and not deny them.
But it wasn't perfect in 55 AD??????
no, perhaps pope piel - pocket fisher of man does though
Rather, I claim the discernment to see beyond the hyperliterism and extrabiblical nonsense that is grafted so neatly with symbolism this and symbolism that, observing that faith, not works or pretty churches, stained glass, bingo or Christs mother, is the cornertone of our salvation
You have a big problem here PF. If the church is perfect, then "that which is perfect" was already present on the earth and there was no need for the spiritual gifts in 55 AD when Paul penned the letter. So what was Paul talking about? By your own admission "that which is perfect" is Christ. And if it was yet to come, then clearly it refers to Christ's visible second coming. If it referred to the Church, it was already there.
This whole argument regarding Chapter 13 was clearly made out of whole cloth as an excuse for those who wish to deny the continued use of spiritual gifts. The burden is on those who deny the perpeturity of spiritual gifts to show exactly when they ceased. Are you one of those "70 AD return" people? If not, then you've got a problem.
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