[PFKEY]

First let us turn to 1 Corinthians 13: "Love never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall be done away; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall be done away. For we know in part, and we prophecy in part; but when that which is perfect is come, that which in part shall be done away. When I was a child, I spake as a child, I felt as a child, I thought as a child: now that I am become a man, I have put away childish things. For now we see in a mirror, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I be known fully even as also I was fully known. But know abideth faith, hope, love, these three; and the greatest of these is love" (vs. 8-13). In this passage Paul was definitely talking about the time when prophecies would be done away-spiritual gifts would cease. He mentions the time when prophecies would be done away, tongues would cease, and knowledge would be done away. It should be apparent to all that Paul was speaking of miraculous .powers, and the time when they would be no more. Prophecies, tongues and knowledge were miraculous gifts. It is absurd for a person to declare that if one teaches that miraculous gifts were done away there is no knowledge left in the earth. Note the specific knowledge that Paul had in mind: "For to one is given through the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge, according to the same Spirit" (1 Cor. 12:8). In this passage Paul was enumerating the spiritual gifts. One of them was the gift of knowledge. While I certainly believe that natural knowledge is yet in the world, I do not believe that any man today has supernatural power. The apostles were told to take no thought what they, should say, for it would be given to them of their Father who is in heaven (Matt. 10:19). If these men who claim to have miraculous gifts of divine knowledge have such power, I could ask them to quote any passage in the Bible and even though they may never have memorized it, by divine power they could recite it. Find such a person. We would like for him to be tested.

Furthermore, one says if you say that that "which is perfect" had not come in New Testament times, you are declaring that the church was then imperfect. Paul was speaking of the fact that the New Testament Scriptures had not all been given, and that when they were perfected, or completed, for that is the meaning of the word "perfect", then that which was in part, namely spiritual gifts or divine knowledge, prophecies, and tongues, were to be done away. Notice also that it is not I who says that that which is perfect had not come, but the apostle Paul: "...but when that which is perfect is come, that which is in part shall be done away."

Sorry to quote from articles but it saves time and typing.


You tell me.

And then tell me whether or not the spiritual gifts came to an end, and if not, then tell me when they will end and which ones will end and why they will end.

Make your best argument from scripture.

[P-Marlowe]

Sorry, but "That which is Perfect" refers to Christ. The Church has never been perfect. Just read Christs letters to the seven churches. The church was anything but perfect then and it is worse now.

It is clear from Chapter 13 that these gifts would cease when Christ returned and not before. We still see in a glass darkly. We do not know in full. We need spritual gifts. We ought to covet them and not deny them.

[Kyrie]

I am trying to understand and clarify the argument from I Corinthians 13. Please indulge me in some probing questions. (Should I purchase an indulgence?)

You quoted: "Love never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall be done away; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall be done away. For we know in part, and we prophecy in part; but when that which is perfect is come, that which in part shall be done away. When I was a child, I spake as a child, I felt as a child, I thought as a child: now that I am become a man, I have put away childish things. For now we see in a mirror, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I be known fully even as also I was fully known."

In this passage, Paul speaks of a "now" and a "then". The "now" would have to be the time (55 AD?) in which he wrote and the believers in Corinth read the epistle, wouldn't it? Or am I missing something?

But more importantly, when is the "then" supposed to be? Notice the two defining features:

• It involves a particular "event": ...when that which is perfect is come...
• There are interesting consequences: For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face; now I know in part, but then I will know fully just as I also have been fully known.

As far as I can tell, cessationists claim that the "event" was one of the following: (a) The formation of the church, or (b) the completion of the initial autographs of the canon of scripture--the Protestant or the Catholic Bible, whichever.

But to claim that the "perfect" was the formation of the "perfect" church, you must deal with the following pair of facts. First, the church was established somewhere about 30-34 AD. Paul was writing his first epistle to the Corinthians about 20 years later. If the "perfect" were the establishment of the "perfect" church, Paul would not write of "now" and "then"; he would write of "before" and "now." Second, the church had been established 20 years before Paul wrote, but Paul still considered tongues to be a valid manifestation of the Holy Spirit. They had not ceased by 55 AD.

Or are we to believe that the "perfect" church was established after 55 AD?

The trouble with both interpretations of "perfect" (both (a) and (b) above) is that we must also have a reasonable interpretation of the rest of the sentence. What does it mean to see "face to face" rather than "dimly"? What does it mean to "know fully just as I also have been fully known"?

The readers in Corinth, who were not diligently searching for scriptural evidence that tongues had already ceased, would have naturally interpreted these references as referring to a time following the return of Christ.

At any rate, if someone believes that the "perfect is come" already, it is incumbent upon them to explain

1. What this "perfect" was.
2. Roughly when the "perfect" arrived (to be consistent, it should be AFTER 50 AD), and
3. How things changed for someone like Paul who would have been seeing "dimly" before the event and "face to face" after. How did Paul experience the change of "now I know in part but then I will know fully just as I also have been fully known"?