New Mass / Validity versus Scandal

EWTN ^

[Canticle_of_Deborah]

Virtually all the Novus Ordo seminaries. The situation in California is beyond desperate. One popular one in Nebraska can't possibly fill the need for the entire US much less the world. This isn't simply my opinion, this is the prediction of Church officials in America. We have been hearing this for several years now. We do not have the numbers to replace the majority of priests who are middle aged and nearing retirement age.

[SoothingDave]

Virtually all the Novus Ordo seminaries.

OK. So whose seminaries were you talking about before, when you said:

Traditional seminaries on the other hand are bursting at the seams. Whether these seminaries are supported by Rome or not will determine the strength and scope of the future Church.

SD

[Maximilian]

But you can't see that I am tryign to pass on the same faith. Except that my priest faces one direction and yours the other, so I must have a different faith? Please.

I have spent many years in the church of the New Mass, and now I attend only the Latin Mass. I can say that it is NOT the same faith. Obviously you are well-intentioned and trying to be a faithful Catholic. But the reality is that the Catholic Faith you are being given is not the same.

And the dangers of schism aren't writ large as well?

Indeed they are. There are no easy answers in a time like this, just as there were no easy answers for Catholics in England at the time of Queen Elizabeth. My experience has been, and this has been verified by the experience of millions of Catholics who have voted with their feet, that the New Mass is a proximate danger to the faith, especially for children. The traditional Catholic Mass has its own danger of a schismatic spirit, but at least you have a fighting chance.

I don't recall saying they were "the same Mass."

To me, this is the whole argument in a nutshell. If it is not the same Mass, then it is a counterfeit. And it cannot be compared to an Eastern Rite liturgy because those, like the traditional Catholic Mass, are organic creations that can be traced back to the apostles. The same cannot be said of the committe headed by Bugnini that created the New Mass out of whole cloth, just like the Protestant reformers did.

[SoothingDave]

I have spent many years in the church of the New Mass, and now I attend only the Latin Mass. I can say that it is NOT the same faith. Obviously you are well-intentioned and trying to be a faithful Catholic. But the reality is that the Catholic Faith you are being given is not the same.

I would be fascinated to hear exactly how I am deficient. What "Reality" of the Faith do I not have? What tenet am I missing? What Truth am I not getting?

SD

[SoothingDave]

To me, this is the whole argument in a nutshell. If it is not the same Mass, then it is a counterfeit. And it cannot be compared to an Eastern Rite liturgy because those, like the traditional Catholic Mass, are organic creations that can be traced back to the apostles. The same cannot be said of the committe headed by Bugnini that created the New Mass out of whole cloth, just like the Protestant reformers did.

This is where you lose it. I looked at the side-by-side comparison of the liturgy, and while the NO is scaled back, I just don't see it as "inorganic" or "entirely different."

These things have not been shown. Maybe you look at the comparison to see what is different, but did you ever look to see what was the same?

What thing that is missing or different makes the NO Mass not valid as a Mass at all?

SD

[Maximilian]

Am I understanding what you are saying correctly here? When I go to Mass on Sunday, I am not going to Mass, but to a "religious service of a type?"

The point is that it is not the same Mass that has been said since at least the time of St. Gregory the Great. It is a different Mass. Every single prayer is different; either it was changed entirely, dropped outright, or mangled in the ICEL translation. BTW, the translations in other European languages are just as bad. It's not a problem specific to the ICEL.

So there has been one Roman Catholic Mass for almost 2,000 years. Now we have a so-called New Mass. They are not the same Mass. And the words that were changed include the words of consecration.

[Canticle_of_Deborah]

Places like the FSSP and a couple of others whose names I can't recall right now. The FSSP has more applicants than they can take. But yes, when the SSPX situation is resolved they will be a source too. That's when, not if. As much as people like to malign them if it wasn't for them the Indult would not exist and the Traditional Mass would have been eradicated.

[SoothingDave]

Places like the FSSP and a couple of others whose names I can't recall right now. The FSSP has more applicants than they can take.

And I think that's good.

But yes, when the SSPX situation is resolved they will be a source too. That's when, not if.

It's still an "if." As long as there are attitudes like we see here, that the NO is not a valid Mass, and must be eliminated, we will not have reconciliation.

As I said, I think that we should have both Masses, available for people to choose, and I would welcome the SSPX back. But they have to drop their attitude that they Church is not ultimately in charge of the liturgy.

As much as people like to malign them if it wasn't for them the Indult would not exist and the Traditional Mass would have been eradicated.

True.

SD

[SoothingDave]

And the words that were changed include the words of consecration.

Last time I checked "pro multis" still meant "pro multis."

SD

[WriteOn]

bogus. The thing that children notice the most, when they are most impressionable, is their parents. Parents believe, kids believe.

[attagirl]

In answer to your post #2--have you considered: that when many priests do the consecration, when it comes time to lift the host, they do so with ONE HAND (ditto the Wine). For all the world it looks to be that he is sharing bread with the congregation (most priests don't raise the host very high and they twirl around to get the far corners of the congregation). The consecration of the wine looks like a TOAST.

Furthermore, the mystery of faith is "Christ has died, Christ is risen..." as opposed to "My flesh is real food and My blood is real drink."

Also, the consecration of the Wine has a wrong translation for Jesus' words. Look it up if you don't believe me.

[attagirl]

Thanks for the ping. I answered Soothing Dave, but have to run. catholics do not get much of a choice though, because the Tridentine Mass is forbidden in places (on another post I saw Levada has done that) and is very scarce in others (such as in my diocese). When it is offered, it is at an inconvenient time (2pm Sun.) and the GOSPEL IS SAID IN LATIN! No sermon. So much for helping my daughter in the spiritual dept. Well, must run. And Egan of NY is a wolf in sheep's clothing, I might add.

[Aloysius]

Didn't like it back then or now. It is a non participatory mass

You don't consider praying "participatory"? Do you attend Mass in order to be entertained or amused?

[NYer]

I have spent many years in the church of the New Mass, and now I attend only the Latin Mass.

Tell me, is this a diocesan sanctioned Indult Tridentine Rite or an SSPX chapel?

[rmvh]

As an ND grad... I can't seem to get off this ridiculous thread of superistitous insanity!!!!!!...Help ...please...Just allow this person to go.

[Desdemona]

The mass I most want to attend is the one on EWTN. It retains ALL of the reverance associated with the Tridentine mass, while following the format of the Novus Ordo.

I like that one too, if you're talking about preferences.

[8mmMauser]

When I saw the New Mass posted by NYer, it shocked me back into reality. It has now been nearly seven years since I heard it and plain forgot how it went. The only one we know these last seven years is the canonized Mass of St. Pius V,

Have any of you seen the reasons offered up by some Diocese priests? Twenty five of them got together and made a list of problems they found with the NO. Maybe you would like to take a peek.

I just offer it up for what it is worth.

................................

The Problem with the New Mass

Why in good conscience we cannot attend the New Mass (also known as the Mass of Paul VI, Novus Ordo and the New Liturgy) either in the vernacular or the Latin, whether facing the people or facing the tabernacle. Thus, for the same reasons, we adhere faithfully to the Traditional Mass (also known as the Tridentine Mass--the Mass for all time). The following are based on the sixty reasons set forth by 25 Diocesan priests of the Diocese of Campos, Brazil.

1. Because the New Mass is not an unequivocal Profession of Faith (which the Traditional Mass is), it is ambiguous and Protestant. Therefore since we pray as we believe, it follows that we cannot pray with the New Mass in Protestant fashion and still believe as Catholics!

2. Because the changes were not Just slight ones but actually "deal with a fundamental renovation.., a total change.., a new creation." (Msgr. A. Bugnini, coauthor of the New Mass.)

3. Because the new Mass leads us to think "that the truths..... can be changed or ignored without infidelity to that sacred deposit of doctrine to which the Catholic Faith is bound forever."

4. Because the New Mass represents "a striking departure from the Catholic theology of the Mass as formulated in session XXII of the council of Tent" which in fixing the "Canons" provided an "insurmountable barrier to any heresy against the integrity of the Mystery."

5. Because the difference between the two is not simply one of mere detail or just modification of ceremony, but "all that is of perennial value finds only a minor place (in the Mass), if it subsists at all."

6. Because "Recent reforms have amply demonstrated that fresh changes in the Liturgy could lead to nothing but complete bewilderment in the faithful, who already show signs of uneasiness and lessening of faith."

7. Because in times of confusion such as now, we are guided by the words of Our Lord: "By their fruits you shall know them." Fruits of the New Mass are 30% decrease in Sunday Mass in the U.S. (NY Times 5/24/75), 43% decrease in France (Cardinal Marty), 50% decrease in Holland (NY Times 1/5/76).

8. Because in less than seven years after the introduction of the New Mass, priests in the world decreased from 413,438 to 243,307 Almost a 50% decrease (Holy See Statistics).

9. Because the New Mass does not manifest Faith in the Real Presence of Our Lord--the traditional Mass manifests it unmistakably.

10. Because the New Mass confuses the Real Presence of Christ in the Eucharist with the MYSTICAL Presence among us (proximating Protestant doctrine).

11. Because the New Mass blurs what ought to be a sharp difference between the HIERARCHIC Priesthood of the people (as does Protestantism).


12. Because the New Mess favors the heretical theory that it is the FAITH cf the people and not THE WORDS OF THE PRIEST which makes Christ present in the Eucharist.

13. Because six Protestant ministers collaborated in making up the New Mass: (Georges, Jasper, Shepherd, Konnith, Smith and Thurian).

14. Because just as Luther did away with the Offertory-since it very clearly expressed the sacrificial propitiatory character of the Mass-so also the New Mass did away with it, reducing it to a simple Preparation of the Gifts.

15. Because enough Catholic theology has been removed that Protestants can, while keeping their antipathy for the true Roman Catholic Church use the text of the New Mass without difficulty. Protestant minister Thurian said that a fruit of the New Mass "will perhaps be that non-Catholic communities will be able to celebrate the Last Supper using the same prayers as the Catholic Church.

16. Because the narrative manner of the Consecration in the New Mass infers that it is only a meal and not a true sacrifice (Protestant thesis).

17. Because by grave omissions, the New Mass leads us to believe that it is only a meal

(Protestant doctrine) and not a sacrifice for the remission of sins (Catholic Doctrine).

IS. Because the changes such as: table instead of altar, facing the people instead of tabernacle, communion in the hand, etc., emphasize Protestant doctrines (e.g. Mass is only a meal, priest is only a president of the assembly, etc. ).

19. Because we are faced with a dilemma; either we become Protestantized by worshiping with the New Mass, or else we preserve our Catholic Faith by adhering faithfully to the Traditional Mass of All Times.

20. Because the New Mass was made in accordance with the protestant definition of the Mass:" The Lord's Supper or Mass is a sacred synasix or assembly of the people of God which gathers together under the presidency of the priest to celebrate the memorial of the Lord."(Par. 7 Intro.. to the New Missal, defining the New Mass, 4/6/69).

21. Because beautiful, familiar Catholic hymns which have inspired people for centuries, have been thrown out and replaced with new hymns strongly Protestant in sentiment, along with new and old Protestant (Reformation hymns at that, headlining Martin Luther), which further deepens the already distinct impression that one is no longer attending a Catholic function.

22. Because the New Mass contains ambiguities favoring heresy, which is more dangerous than if it were clearly heretical since a half-heresy resembles the truth!

23. Because the New Mass follows the format of Cranmer's heretical Anglican Mass, and the methods of the English heretics.

24. Because Holy Mother Church canonized English martyrs who were killed because they refused to participate at a Mass such as the New Mass!

25. Because Protestants who once converted to Catholicism are scandalized to see that the New Mass is the same as the one they attended as Protestants. One of them, Julian Green asks "Why did we convert?

26. Because statistics show a great decrease in conversion to Catholicism following use of the New Mass, Conversions, which were up to 100,000 a year in the U.S. have decreased to less than 10,000!

27. Because the nature of the New Mass is such as to facilitate profanations of the Holy Eucharist, which occur with a frequency unheard of with the Traditional Mass.

28. Because the New Mass, despite appearances conveys a New faith, not the Catholic faith, it is modernism and follows exactly the tactics of modernism, using vague terminology in order to insinuate and advance error.

29. Because by introducing optional variations, the New Mass undermines the unity of the liturgy, with each priest liable to deviate as he fancies under the guise of creativity, Disorder inevitably results, accompanied by lack of respect and irreverence.

30. Because many good priests do not accept the Mass, and affirm that they are unable to celebrate it in good conscience.

31. Because the New Mass has eliminated such things as: genuflection (only three remain) purification of the priests's fingers in the chalice, preservation from all profane contact of the priest's fingers after Consecration, sacred altar stone and relics, three altar cloths. (reduced to one), all of which "only serve to emphasize how outrageously faith in the dogma of the real Presence is implicitly repudiated."

32. Because the Traditional Mass, enriched and matured by centuries of sacred Tradition, was codified (not invented) by a Pope who was a Saint, Plus V; whereas the New Mass was artificially fabricated.

33. Because the abolition of the Traditional Mass recalls the prophesy of Daniel 8:12 "And he was given power against the perpetual sacrifice because of the sins of the people" and the observation of St. Alphonsus de Liguori that because the Mass is the best and most beautiful thing which exists in the church here below, the devil has always tried by means of heretics to deprive us of it.

34. Because in places where the Traditional Mass is preserved, the faith and fervor of the people are greater, whereas the opposite is true where the New Mass reigns. (Report on the Mass; Diocese of Campos, Buenos Aires #69. 8/81).

35. Because along with the New Mass goes also a new catechism, a new morality, new prayers, new ideas, a new calender-in one word, a New Church,a complete revolution from the old. "The liturgical reform.., do not be deceived, this is where the revolution begins." (Msgr. Dwyer, Archbishop of Birmingham, spokesman of Episcopal Synod. )

36. Because the New Mass attempts to transform the Catholic Church into a new, ecumenical church embracing all Ideologies and all religions -- a goal long dreamt of by the enemies of the Catholic Church.

37. Because the altar and tabernacle are now separated marking a division between Christ in His priest-and-sacrifice-on-the-altar, from Christ in His Real Presence in the tabernacle, "two things which of their very nature must remain together." (Pius XII).

38. Because the New Mass no longer constitutes a vertical worship from man to God, but instead a horizontal worship between man and man.

39. Because the traditional Latin Mass of Pope St., Plus V has not, nor can it ever be legally abrogated; it therefore remains a true rite of the Catholic Church forever, by which Catholics may fulfill their Sunday obligation.

40. Because "in none of the three new Eucharistic Prayers (of the New Mass) is there any reference to the state of suffering of those who have died, in none the possibility of a particular memento, thus undermining faith in the redemption nature of the Sacrifice."

41. Because as stated in Vatican Council I, the Holy Ghost was not promised to the successors of Peter, that by his revelation they might make a new doctrine, but His assistance they might inviolably keep and faithfully expound the revelation or deposit of faith delivered through the Apostles." (D.S.3070)

42. Because heresy, or whatever clearly favors heresy, cannot be matter for disobedience Obedience is at the service of faith and not faith at the service of obedience! In this foregoing case then, "one must obey God before men." (Acts of the Apostles 5:29).

[Desdemona]

You don't consider praying "participatory"? Do you attend Mass in order to be entertained or amused?

There are people out there who honestly feel like they have to be doing something in order to participate. That will eventually even out. There will be those that do and those that don't, just like now.

As an under -35 post Vatican II brat, what I see as encouraging is that in every parish I go, the EEMs are al gray and there are no new volunteers. The folk music is NOT sung by congregations, by contast the traditional songs and chant are. They're a lot easier to sing, anyway (and as someone who does Beethoven, Mozart and Puccini weekly I can say that with a fair amount of confidence).

What people who were are 15-40 years older than me don't like to hear is that the many of us who are younger are not interested in being progressive, but more conservative. We had a talk about it the other night and my mother was appalled that my grandmother likes EWTN, Mother Angelica and company. My mother also like liturgical dance and OCP. (we butt heads a lot)

That being said, here in St. Louis, where we have a conservative "cold fish" for an archbishop, who wasted no time cleaning house last year, we have over 50 seminarians. This is not a big archdiocese and there is only one Latin Mass. It's that the orthodoxy in teaching is there. That's what we young people want.

[tiki]

I know that you all say that Catholics have fallen away like flies. I know there is a shortage of vocations but do you have statistics? I'd be interested in them if you know where to find them.

I did find a site that gives a lot of information but I couldn't find their sources. It shows Catholicism as a % of world population going up 1.76% from 1900 to 1970 and going down .65% from 1970 to mid-2000 and essentially remaining steady to mid 2002.