New Mass / Validity versus Scandal

EWTN ^

[Land of the Irish]

Question from R James on 04-02-2003:

Dear Father Levis:

On this expert forums, there is sometimes debate over the validity of the New ("Novus Ordo") Mass.

I would like to respond to this debate by noting that oftentimes the reason that many Catholics avoid the New Mass (and attend the traditional Latin Mass instead) is not out of concern over its validity (as most "traditional Catholics" I know believe that the New Mass is indeed valid), but rather out of a fear that by attending the New Mass, they would be immorally scandalizing their CHILDREN. Please allow me to explain.

The dramatic fall-off in Mass attendance, along with the dissipation of priestly vocations, can be clearly traced to the introduction of the New Mass. Similarly, decline in the belief in the Real Presence of Christ can be traced to the introduction of the New Mass. Thus, many Catholic parents fear that it would be immoral to subject their children to the New Mass out of concern that they would, among other things, (1) stop going to Mass, (2) less likely to be called to the priesthood / religious life, and (3) less likely to believe in the Real Presence.

And this is not simply a matter of "post hoc ergo propter hoc" (in other words, coincidence). There are simple, cogent reasons why the New Mass could be seen as detrimental to the Faith.

For instance, the Real Presence of Christ in the Latin Mass is undeniably confirmed by the fact that (1) the priest must not separate his fingers once he touches the Sacred Host, (2) laity receive the Host on their knees, (3) laity may not touch the Host, (4) a paten is placed under the chins of those receiving the Eucharist to guard against the chance that a crumb may fall to the ground. None of these safeguards are present in the New Mass.

The notion of Mass as a SACRIFICE is obscured by replacing altars with tables. Sure, they may still be called altars, and they may even be marble (although they're usually not), but they do indeed look much more like tables to children rather than something different and set apart -- like a Tridentine altar.

The fact that the priest faces the congregation throughout the New Mass makes it appear much more like the priest is talking to the congregation, rather than to God. Children see this.

In sum, children are quite perceptive, and they notice these little things. Catholic parents need all the help they can get in raising children in the Faith. Sadly, the New Mass is not that helpful -- indeed, it often undermines many of the key tenets of the Faith via practices that are inconsistent with the Truths of the Mass.

So please understand that many of us who avoid the New Mass do so not because we believe it's invalid (we don't), but rather because we are parents who believe that it would be immoral to subject our children to a liturgy that can confuse or undermine Church teaching.

(An obvious response to this would be: how can the Church do anything to undermine its own teaching? One need only look at "Catholic" colleges, and many "Catholic" high schools, to see that this sadly happens all the time. Or see how Catholic bishops have responded to the sex-abuse scandals; the Church is certainly infallible in matters of Faith and Morals, but is NOT infallible in matters of prudential judgment. In other words, the Church can make a mistake with regard to the best method of evangelization, safeguarding the Faith, etc.)

Answer by Fr. Robert J. Levis on 04-03-2003: R. James, Many thanks. Your arguments are very interesting; I am not sure I would use them like you do, but they have some strength. God bless. Fr. Bob Levis

[8mmMauser]

Two good and clear points...

[SoothingDave]

How about I teach my kids the faith, and you do the same, OK?

That's not the way it's supposed to work. That's Protestantism, not the Catholic Faith.

You misunderstand me.

The Catholic faith should be the same for every country, every parish, every family. Now there's hardly 2 parishes that believe the same and worship the same. Not to speak of families.

Of course, as you say, each father has a responsibility to be the spiritual head of his family. But the faith that we should be teaching our children should be the same faith, the same belief, the same worship.

You are under the impression that I don't agree? This is the problem. I see hwo you are doing what you think is best for your family. But you can't see that I am tryign to pass on the same faith. Except that my priest faces one direction and yours the other, so I must have a different faith? Please. Recognize the ally you have in the conservative Catholic who would prefer a proper NO Mass.

As was indicated above, that would include the ordinary responses in Latin, and the teaching and readings in English. Not clown Masses, no dancing girls. Just the Mass as Vatican II envisioned.

What I said was that it's presumptious to ignore known dangers. People die from accidents all the time, but those who are walking along the edge of a cliff are taking a much greater risk.

Says the schismatic.

As the original writer to EWTN said, the New Mass is a known danger to the faith of children. This is a fact as demonstrated by mountains of data.

And the dangers of schism aren't writ large as well?

Since you are willing to agree that not one single prayer of the traditional Catholic Mass remains untouched in the New Mass, then you must at least stop and consider whether it is true that they are "the same Mass."

I have conceded the point, for the time being. I have not studied to see if "every" prayer is different, but will grant you this for the debate.

I don't recall sayign they were "the same MaAss." The NO is a valid Mass, and inasmuch as any Mass is a participation in the One Sacrifice, then they are "the same."

But in general, they are both Masses. As similar as they are different. An Eastern Rite Mass is not the Tridentine either, but it is still a valid Mass.

Catholic philosophy has always been consistent with human reason. Two things that are utterly different cannot be the same.

Where did "utterly different" come from? In no way has that been shown. A validly ordained priest says the words of consecration over valid matter. The sacrament is valid.

If the New Mass is in fact NOT the same as the traditional Catholic Mass, then what kind of service are you attending?

Maybe a Mass accrding to the New Rite? The words and gestures and prayers are not all the same, but it is still a valid Mass. That is the point. Can you concede that?

SD

[SoothingDave]

I didn't say a word about schism. I'm talking about renewal from within. A return to the old ways of worship is not schism, it is going home.

OK. I was confused by your "supported by Rome" comment. Sorry.

SD

[TxBec]

ping

[Bigg Red]

Then I won't worry so much that the furniture or how the priest stands will destroy my children's faith.



Well, I am still fretting over how much the Mass I grew up with has been replaced by an orgy of casual regard, bordering on disrespect, for the Blessed Sacrament. Many of us are sick of being told to get with it.

[Bigg Red]

Thanks for the flag.

[SoothingDave]

Well, I am still fretting over how much the Mass I grew up with has been replaced by an orgy of casual regard, bordering on disrespect, for the Blessed Sacrament. Many of us are sick of being told to get with it.

The answer is to fight the abuse, to pray for an end to the hippies. Not to doubt the Mother Church in her ability to decide what is the liturgy.

I am not a fan of disrespect or nonsense in any manner. The NO does not have to be synonymous with such.

SD

[NYer]

If the New Mass is in fact NOT the same as the traditional Catholic Mass, then what kind of service are you attending?

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Tour of the New Mass

The Mass is made of two main parts:

• the Liturgy of the Word; and
• the Liturgy of the Eucharist.

The Entrance

Mass begins with the entrance of the Priest. On Sundays and Feast Days, an entrance hymn will be sung. Otherwise, a short passage (usually from Scripture) is recited called the "Entrance Antiphon".

Being our greatest prayer, the Mass begins by making the Sign of the Cross (the traditional way that Catholics "bless themselves" and begin and conclude "formal" prayers).

The Penitential Rite

The Priest greets the people and invites everyone to reflect briefly on their unworthiness and sinfulness to prepare for the celebration of the Mass. The People may recite the "Confiteor":

I confess to Almighty God,
and to you here present,
that I have sinned through my own fault,
["mea culpa, mea culpa, mea maxima culpa"]
in my thoughts and in my words,
in what I have done and in what I have failed to do.
And I ask Blessed Mary, ever Virgin,
all the Angels and Saints,
and you here present
to pray for me to the Lord, our God.

The Priest then leads the "Kyrie" -- "Lord have mercy", "Christ have mercy", "Lord have mercy" -- before giving a general absolution to prepare the People for reception of the Blessed Sacrament. (This does not apply to people in a state of Mortal Sin who must first receive absolution within the Sacrament of Penance before approaching the Blessed Sacrament.)

There is an then an opening prayer recited by the Priest. The prayers and the various readings chosen for the particular Mass follow a particular "theme".

The Liturgy of the Word

First, a passage from the Old Testament, the Acts of the Apostles or the Book of Revelation is read.

This is followed either by the singing or recitation of one of the Psalms. Usually a lector or cantor will recite or sing a verse, to which the People will respond with an antiphon from the Psalm.

Then, a passage from one of the Epistles (the New Testament "Letters") is read as the Second Reading.

At feria (weekday) Masses, only one reading and Psalm occurs. At some Masses, additional readings are also given -- at the Easter Vigil, the most important Mass of the year, celebrating the Resurrection, there can be up to 15 readings!

The First and Second Readings and Psalm are usually read by lay people, most properly by Lectors, lay people who have been formally commissioned to read the Readings in their parish.

The Readings are then followed by the Gospel Acclamation -- a great "Alleluia!" by the People welcoming the Word. The People stand for the Gospel Acclamation and remain standing while a Priest or Deacon reads a passage from the Gospel. On particularly special occasions, the Priest may chant the Gospel.

At the conclusion of the Gospel, the People sit to listen to the Priest's "Homily", a reflection on the various readings and their application to our lives.

Following the homily and a short time to reflect quietly on what Father has said, the People stand to rectie the Creed. Catholics, as do all Christians, recite together this formulation of our Faith.

Following the Creed, the People place the needs of the world before our Father in Heaven in the "General Intercessions" or "Prayers of the Faithful". A Lector will usually read a short intercession which the People make their own by responding, "Lord, Hear our Prayer". These prayers usually pray for the Pope and the Church, the Leaders of our Nation, for an increase in vocations to the priesthood, for those in difficulties, for the sick and infirm (especially those from the particular parish), for the dead.

This concludes the first part of the Mass.

The Offertory Rites

Some members of the congregation (quite often children or a family) then take up the "gifts": the candles that will sit on the altar to signal the presence of Christ, our Light, the bread which will beome the Body of Christ and the Wine which will become His Blood.

This is also when the first Collection is taken. The People are invited to give an offering which is forwarded to the Bishop or Archbishop to be used for the purposes of the Diocese.

The Liturgy of the Eucharist

The Priest receives these gifts and says a blessing over them, offering them to God, the work and fruit of our hands, highlighting the great mystery that God will take food and drink we have made and transform them into a Heavenly Meal, the Body and Blood of Our Lord Jesus.

After blessing the gifts, the Priest prays that God will cleanse him of all iniquity and symbolically washes his fingers which will touch the Lord.

The People then pray that God will accept the Priest's Sacrifice "for the Praise and Glory of His Name, for our good and the good of all His Church".

The Mass has its beginning in the Last Supper when Our Lord first changed bread and wine into His Body and Blood. But it also has its links in the great events of Good Friday. Each Mass is a continuation and a re-offering of Christ's sacrifice on Calvary. It takes the holocausts and burnt, bloody sacrifices of the Old Testament and transforms them into the Holy Sacrifice of the Lamb of God that redeemed all mankind.

After the Priest recites a short prayer of praise to God -- the "Preface" -- the People sing the Heavenly Chant of the "Sanctus" "with all the Angels and Saints":

Holy, Holy, Holy Lord,
God of Power and Might,
Heaven and Earth are full of Your glory
Hosanna in the Highest!
Blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord
Hosanna in the Highest!

The People then kneel in readiness for the moment when Jesus will become truly, physcically present on the altar.

The Priest begins to pray a great prayer of thanksgiving and supplication to God called the "Eucharistic Prayer". There are a number of Eucharistic Prayers for the Priest to choose from:

• The First Eucharistic Prayer is a translation of the Canon. The Canon was the only Eucharistic Prayer that was said in the Latin Rite from the time of the Counter-Reformation until Vatican II. It is rich in the history of the People of God, it calls on our Jewish heritage, it reminds us of our Heavenly goal, it calls on each of the Apostles and the Saints and the Martyrs of the Early Church, each by name, to intercede for us. (It is my personal favourite!)
• The Second Eucharistic Prayer (one of the new ones introduced by Pope Paul VI after Vatican II) is based on the Eucharistic Prayers in use in the very early Church. It is beautiful in its simplicity and many appreciate how it links us to the prayer of the early Church. Many also appreciate that it is so much shorter than the others! (It is certainly the most often used, the "default" Eucharistic Prayer, if you like!)
• The Third Eucharistic Prayer draws greatly on the liturgical traditions and imagery of the Eastern Church.
• There is also a Fourth Eucharistic Prayer and a number written especially for Masses with Children.

The common elements of the Eucharistic Prayers are:

• The Consecration -- the moment when the Priest transforms the bread and wine into the Body and Blood of Our Lord by repeating the words of consecration:

  This is my Body (hic est enim corpus meum)
  This is the cup of my Blood (hoc est calix sanguinis meus)

• Prayer for the Church
• Prayer for the Pope, the local Ordinary (Bishop), all priests and all the Faithful
• Prayer for the Faithful Departed (those Faithful who have died)
• Invocation of the Blessed Virgin, the Apostles and the Saints
• Finally, the Doxology of Praise by the Priest followed by the People's "Great Amen":

  Through Him, with Him, in Him, in the unity of the Holy Spirit, all glory and honour are Yours, Almighty Father, for ever and ever. Amen.

The People then stand to say the Lord's Prayer together and to share the Kiss of Peace with each other (usually a handshake or a nod of the head!)

The Priest then breaks the Body of Christ while the People pray, "Lamb of God, who takes away the sins of the world, have mercy on us." (Agnus Dei, qui tollis peccata mundi, miserere nobis).

The Priest then invites us again to acknowledge our unworthiness in the "Domine, non sum dignus":

"Lord, I am not worthy to receive you but only say the word, and I shall be healed."

The Priest then eats and drinks the Body and Blood of the Lord before proceeding to distribute the Sacrament to each of the People in turn who wish and are able to receive communion.

This is the great pinnacle of the Mass, of the Christian Life, of the Church, the moment when Jesus, truly present, Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity, enters into our very being, our bodies and souls, making us one together with Him and with each other, cleaving us to His Mystical Body, the Church.

Needless to say, a few moments' quiet refletion and then a song of great joy and praise follow this blessed moment!

At this stage, a second collection is usually taken. The proceeds of this collection are for the needs of the parish (maintenance of the Church buildings, paying for the electricity, funds for the Parish School, etc.) and to provide for the priests.

After consuming any remaining Precious Blood and placing any remaining hosts in the Tabernacle, the Priest cleans and purifies the sacred vessels and then sits quietly for a time in reflection and thanksgiving.

The concluding rites

Finally, the Priest blesses the People and "dismisses" them "The Mass is ended! Go in Peace to love and serve the Lord!" He sends us out into the World to take Christ with us in our hearts and make Him known to whoever we meet. The Priest then proceeds out of the Church while the People sing a final hymn.

[Canticle_of_Deborah]

Uh, yeah, I know. I've attended it. I've also attended the Tridentine. They are entirely different. If you don't think so then you need to go back to a Tridentine and refresh your memory.

[Romulus]

Everything you listed is an abuse, not a condition of the NO Mass.

Children also hear "When we eat this Bread and drink this cup, we proclaim..."

You and I know that our Lord also spoke of "Bread", and that to the properly catechized there's no scandal with respect to a potential contradiction of the Real Presence. But children -- and a great many others -- hear only "bread" and "cup". Moreover, to "proclaim" is not the point of the Eucharist. Its importance as an act of witness by the congregation is perhaps the least important thing about the Blessed Sacrament. To explain the point of the Eucharist as proclamation is to suggest that Eucharist is something commemoratiive and symbolic, done by the people and receiving its meaning and validity from us.

Even those who should know better can be affected subliminally by gratuitous imprecision in speech. It undermines a wholehearted appreciation of the Real Presence and muddies critical distinctions between Catholics and other Christian communions -- deliberately, some would say.

[NYer]

If you don't think so then you need to go back to a Tridentine and refresh your memory.

Grew up with the Latin Mass and, at the prompting of someone in this forum, returned for a visit last summer. Like a trip through a time machine. Didn't like it back then or now. It is a non participatory mass, where the priest performs the actions and the altar servers give the responses. I need to be a part of the mass, saying the responses, singing the music (NOT the contemporary stuff), and responding to Christ in the Eucharist.

The mass I most want to attend is the one on EWTN. It retains ALL of the reverance associated with the Tridentine mass, while following the format of the Novus Ordo.

[SoothingDave]

You and I know that our Lord also spoke of "Bread", and that to the properly catechized there's no scandal with respect to a potential contradiction of the Real Presence. But children -- and a great many others -- hear only "bread" and "cup".

Before this, children (or the attentive ones, anyway) will hear the priest say "let Your Spirit come upon these gifts, so that they may become the Body and Blood ..." (or equivalent).

Moreover, to "proclaim" is not the point of the Eucharist. Its importance as an act of witness by the congregation is perhaps the least important thing about the Blessed Sacrament. To explain the point of the Eucharist as proclamation is to suggest that Eucharist is something commemoratiive and symbolic, done by the people and receiving its meaning and validity from us.

Interesting point.

SD

[Romulus]

I am not a fan of disrespect or nonsense in any manner. The NO does not have to be synonymous with such.

But it almost has to, Dave. It's not the fact of the vernacular (though that too is harmful, IMO); it's the impoverished ICEL "translations" (relentlessly insipid and fanciful paraphrase is more like it). The very text of the liturgy is an "orgy of casual regard". Though valid, the NO is unholy. It evinces a comprehensive hatred for sanctity, of the unique regard, the latria that should characterise all of our dealings with God. On other forum I have criticised muslims for their servile relationship to a God who withholds intimacy. But it's also an error to conclude that God's our chum and comrade, a Big Buddy on our road to self-discovery.

Please keep in mind the essential communist tactic, employed especially by Mao, of cultural revolution, by which a people are made more malleable and open to radical change by stripping them of their culture and historical memory.

[SoothingDave]

But it almost has to, Dave. It's not the fact of the vernacular (though that too is harmful, IMO); it's the impoverished ICEL "translations" (relentlessly insipid and fanciful paraphrase is more like it). The very text of the liturgy is an "orgy of casual regard". Though valid, the NO is unholy. It evinces a comprehensive hatred for sanctity, of the unique regard, the latria that should characterise all of our dealings with God.

I am no fan of ICEL, to say the least. It is indeed, banal and devoid of any sense of awe. But that is not the entire NO.

I have said here several times, that the NO should be said with the Latin ordinary parts, and only the readings and such in the vernacular.

Like EWTN does.

That would do wonders for increasing the "holiness" of the NO Mass.

Another alternative would be the wholesale adoption of the Anglican Use, which manages to use a dignified and rarefied form of English.

In short, ICEL is being put out of its misery. One way or another.

SD

[Canticle_of_Deborah]

The mass I most want to attend is the one on EWTN

I hope you get what you want. But please don't denigrate or deny other Catholics' choice of Mass. Likewise, what doesn't work for you does work for others and they have just as much of a right to it as you do.

That being said, a day is coming when N.O. afficionados will have to travel for the Mass like Indult attendees do now. The numbers in the seminaries support this.

[SoothingDave]

That being said, a day is coming when N.O. afficionados will have to travel for the Mass like Indult attendees do now. The numbers in the seminaries support this.

Whose seminaries are you talking about, exactly?

SD

[Maximilian]

If the New Mass is in fact NOT the same as the traditional Catholic Mass, then what kind of service are you attending?

Thanks for the reminder. This is a religious service of a type, but it is not the Catholic Mass. Msgr. Klaus Gamber, who was the world's foremost liturgical expert at the time of Vatican II, and not considered a traditionalist or even conservative, states in his book "The Reform of the Roman Liturgy" that the changes made in the New Mass are more drastic than those made by either Luther in Germany or Cranmer in England when they designed their new services.

[SoothingDave]

But please don't denigrate or deny other Catholics' choice of Mass. Likewise, what doesn't work for you does work for others and they have just as much of a right to it as you do.

Just to be clear, I think that the Indult should be widely available and that those who prefer it should not be denied. This means that there should be more than one or two a month and in more than one location.

That being said, I don't recall any NO people saying that the Indult is a threat to their children, or that it is by its nature unholy.

It is the Latin-philes who accuse the NO of being dangerous and invalid. Not the other way around.

SD

[SoothingDave]

What makes a "Mass" a "Mass." What is your definition?

SD