Pollster says he can't find Christianity transforming lives

Los Angeles Times | Published Sep 28, 2002 | William Lobdell

[RnMomof7]

Ya know Mack you suffer from the Stockholm Syndrome

[PayNoAttentionManBehindCurtain]

Ya know Mack you suffer from the Stockholm Syndrome

Hey, I just asked you a straight question, are ya gonna answer? Do you consider your family that is catholic saved? And if not do you tell them they are deceieved and goin to hell?

BigMack

[ksen]

I see what you are saying now.

Personally, I don't think Calvinism acts as a block to evangelization. I was asked by theAmbassador what about Calvinism could people say precludes evangelism.

I gave him an example of someone taking Irresistable Grace to an unreasonable extreme in order to make a charge against Calvinism.

[xzins]

Was your Presbyterian Church a calvinist variety?

[JHavard]

Gen 49:14 Issachar is a strong ass couching down between two burdens:M
V-15 And he saw that rest was good, and the land that it was pleasant; and bowed his shoulder to bear, and became a servant unto tribute.

Ok, I won't call him fake anymore, but his claim to have "thorough" knowledge of the Holy Torah I am calling fake until he proves otherwise. This question about one of the twelve tribes is basic knowledge. Perhaps it will provoke him to jealousy to actually study the Word, something that he should have a true passion for already. For my money, I'll say that the calvinist Woody finds it first.

My handy dandy "Stone Edition of the Chumash" tells me this.

This reflects Issachars spiritual role as bearer of the yoke of Torrah and cultivating of the spiritual treasures of the people. Rashi

He rest between two boundaries. The Torah Sages toil day and night in their studies without formal rest, but they are spiritually tranquil (Shaaeri Aharron).

Does this make me a Jew? Poor angelo, he missed out because he didn’t have the right commentary.

(^g^) JH

[PayNoAttentionManBehindCurtain]

How ya doing bud?

BigMack

[SoothingDave]

I gave him an example of someone taking Irresistable Grace to an unreasonable extreme in order to make a charge against Calvinism.

We must remember, grasshopper, that to the unreasonable extremist the unreasonable extreme is the middle of the road.

(Now what the hell am I talking about?) LOL

SD

[theAmbassador]

I think that Irresistable Grace, if taken to a ridiculous extreme, would cause some to say, "If God's Grace is Irresistable, then why should I bother witnessing to my neighbor. Either they are Elect or they are not, nothing I do can change that."

Yeah, it is called hyper-Calvinism and it is just as bad as Arminianism.

But that does absolutely nothing to show why Calvinism is inconsistent with the preaching of the gospel. The problem here is that you know that there are inconsistent Arminians that preach the gospel as if God is sovereign over salvation, even praying that God would move upon them, but you can't find any Calvinists who have any confidence in man's "free-will". Thank God for such Arminians. Are you one of these?

The closest you will get to a "free-will" Calvinist are those Baptist Calminians (if I remember the term correctly) who are just cowardly Arminians and like to believe in the Preservation and Perserverance of the saints for all the wrong reasons. I have even heard one with my own ears after preaching something resembling the gospel say: "all you have to do is say the words and you are saved."

We Calvinists happen to actually believe in the concept of "instant conversion (if I remember John Calvin correctly)" and so we have faith in God that our own eyes can see the regeneration of dry bones as we preach the gospel. Its that whole faith comes by hearing the Word kind of thing.

[JHavard]

How ya doing bud?

JH to you, and how's dad today?

(^g^) JH

[ponyespresso]

Would you say that the experiential aspect of Christianity is more important than the doctrinal aspect?

Absolutely not. We need to know who exactly we are worshiping, lest we become like the Athenians who put up statues to An Unknown God. Or we become like the Mormons who worship a false Christ.

Listen, God have us brains for a reason. For hundreds and hundreds of years Theology was taught in Universities, not as a philosophy but as a science. Right along with all the other natural sciences as well. I used to think that becoming a Christian meant committing intellectual suicide; now I know that nothing is further from the truth (literally).

Now, with all that being said, while I do not think that the experiential aspect of Christianity is more important than the doctrinal aspect, what I do know is that we could know all the docrine in the world, but we really do need the experiential aspects of Christianity for us to truly know something about God. They really do work hand in hand. You can study all the maps of the ocean you want, but nothing will prepare you for actually seeing it (or better, actually swimming in it) for yourself (and, yes, I did steal that example from Mere Christianity by C.S. Lewis)

Unfortunatly, what has happened is that hugely important experiential traditions, Judeo-Christian traditions like meditation have been usurped over the centuries by other religions, cults, various movements and just plain non-believers. To such an extent that today, for me to even mention "Christian meditation" suddenly labels me as some kind of New-Agey-mistaken-heretic sorely in need of some "serious" Bible study.

This, of course flies directly in the face of many of the Psalms: "Blessed is the man who does not walk in the counsel of the wicked...But his delight is in the law of the Lord, and on his law he mediates day and night. (1:1,2)
"Oh how I love your law, I meditate on it all day long" (119:97)
c.f. 63:6, 119:148, Genesis 24:63, 1 Sam 3:1-18

I can't tell you the positive impact Celebration of Discipline by Richard Foster has had on my life. If you want a really good primer on real experiential aspects of Christianity (something waaaay more substantial that just the typical speaking-in-tounges-then-falling-down sillyness) I highly recommend it.

[theAmbassador]

You believe your own self-flattering interpretation of the Bible. And that this is a great comfort to those who used to be terrified of doing something wrong is testified to by several of the Calvinists here. They were afraid that God would punish them if they did something wrong, so they embraced a philosophy whereby their salvation is arbitrary, yet assured, and that their actions are guranteed to be exactly what God desires. It is a very attractive theology and it is no wonder that many people cling to it.

Now, you are just lying about Calvinism in addition to throwning your venom my way.

Phl 1:29 For unto you it is given in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for his sake;

Read that verse real close.

[ksen]

I'm heading home now, but I'll answer your post tonight.

[ponyespresso]

I still do not agree with you that natural man is looking for the one true God BTW :>)

All people have a God-sized hole in them, and we all are struggling to fill it with something, anything; spiritual or physical, healthy or detructive, whatever we can do to try to fill that void, that emptiness within us. Unfortunately anything other than the one true God, the God of Abraham, Issac and Jacob will not fill that hole.

Keep that in mind the next time you drive past any mosque, temple or mall. You do know that shopping malls are the new temples right? The next time you are wandering around your local mall, try looking at it in terms of merely being a large temple, something akin to what the Egyptians or Greeks would have built, devoted to the god of commerce.

Shopping is the new religion, and the mall is where the faithful go to worship.

[fortheDeclaration]

Abimelech spoke with God and pled his case with God, this from a man who was 'spiritually dead'. He did not have to be regenerated first, in order to understand what God was saying. That is a pathetic twisting of scripture guys and you know it. The "dead " comment was a reference to physical death not spiritual death..

What comment are you referring to?

Abimelech is spiritually dead and is still talking with God!

Now, when I or Xzins bring up the fact that God can shed light into the spiritually dead so they can understand the Gospel, your retort is 'can a corpse understand anything'?

Here is a man with a 'dead' spirit 'understanding' what God wants him to understand.

That is our contention that the light of the Gospel can be understood by the unbeliever because God wants him to understand it.

It is your contention that the man must be regenerated first because 'corpses' cannot understand anything.

A surprise that God chose to directly speak to him...no God was acting to protect his elect..after all God once talked through a donkey. He is God and can use His creation as He wishes..

Well, that is what myself and Xzins (and others) have told you, that God can give the truth of His gospel and it can reach spiritually dead men so that they understand it and can make a choice to accept it or reject it.

I hope that next month we will not here about Lazarus coming forth as an analogy of the spiritually dead man!

But we will! :>)

There is no indication that he became an observant Jew from that encounter...

Ugh? So what?

He was spiritually dead and communicated with God (without being regenerated first) and did as God commanded him to do (he feared God) something that Calvinists say is not possible to a spiritually dead man.

It is you who limit God when you say that God has to regenerate first before the man can respond to the Gospel, since a spiritually dead man cannot understand God.

That spiritually dead man understood God and obeyed him!

[PayNoAttentionManBehindCurtain]

JH to you, and how's dad today?

He better now, after we got him home from the hospital from the cigarette burns you put on him, that he got when he came to visit you.

BigMack

[RnMomof7]

My Catholic family is lost ..yes they will go to hell unless they are converted ..

They know my thoughts on it Mack it has been discussed frequently over 26 years ...but ya know what that is Gods business not mine..I am not leaving tracts around the house I am trusting the Justice and Mercy of God .

So do you think Beckys family is saved? Or do you prefer to pretend they are so as not to offend?

BTW 5 of my 7 Chhildren are out of the Catholic church (only one is "actively" RC and he reject half of their doctrine )..My sisters and nieces and nephew are also out

Kairos

[RnMomof7]

Could you give me some scripture on that God sized hole that men seek to fill ?

[RnMomof7]

See OP's answer...He is right

[Wrigley]

Actually rest, I like your handle of itsfreewill better anyway. Its closer to what you believe. But I will still call you rest.

[Wrigley]

It sure does. Many lessons to be learned. One important one is that on my own I'll never save myself. And since you brought it up, are you sure it's translated correctly?