Posted on 09/30/2002 9:19:01 AM PDT by PayNoAttentionManBehindCurtain
VENTURA, Calif. -- Pollster George Barna, known these days as the bearer of bad tidings about the state of Christianity in America, arrived in his office a few minutes late for a 10 a.m. appointment.
His hair was ruffled; his eyes puffy. Shoulders slouched. Being the George Gallup of the conservative evangelical world is a heavy burden for Barna, who often works into the early morning, deciphering numbers generated by his surveys to find church trends.
The 48-year-old author of 30 books, who describes himself as a raging introvert, is a popular national speaker. And he produces enough in-your-face statistics and blunt talk to irritate pastors, cost him business and earn a reputation for having, as one magazine put it, "the gift of discouragement."
His data undercut some of the core beliefs that should, by definition, set evangelicals apart from their more liberal brethren. Findings of his polls show, for example, that:
• The divorce rate is no different for born-again Christians than for those who do not consider themselves religious.
• Only a minority of born-again adults (44 percent) and a tiny proportion of born-again teenagers (9 percent) are certain that absolute moral truth exists.
• Most Christians' votes are influenced more by economic self-interest than by spiritual and moral values.
• Desiring to have a close, personal relationship with God ranks sixth among the 21 life goals tested among born-agains, trailing such desires as "living a comfortable lifestyle."
'Are people's lives being transformed" by Christianity? Barna has asked. "We can't find evidence of a transformation."
Even Barna's toughest critics concede that Barna Research Group's polls carry considerable weight because of his first-rate surveying techniques and his 17-year-long record of tracking church and cultural trends.
His work has been used by major companies (Ford Motor Co. and Walt Disney, for example) and religious organizations such as the Billy Graham Evangelistic Association and World Vision.
"He is the accepted authority on church trends," said Bob Cavin, director of the Texas Baptist Leadership Center. "He gives pastors insight, not only into the effectiveness of the church, but with trends in society that help the pastors with their strategic planning."
Because of his influence, many are watching with interest as Barna branches out from his usual business. He has been preoccupied with quantifying contemporary Christian beliefs, attitudes and practices; comparing them with biblical truths; and delivering the results to pastors, Christian leaders and laity. He said that he once hoped his analyses would be used as building blocks for more relevant churches.
But he decided this year to take a more active role by helping to identify and develop new and better church leaders who will boldly go where their predecessors haven't gone before: to radically revamp the church. He said he believes the process will take decades -- generations -- to complete.
"One of our challenges is to revisit the structures and means through which people experience Christ," Barna said. "People have been talking about developing the 'new church' for the past several decades, but nothing new has been forthcoming."
According to Barna, pastors are great teachers, but not necessarily adept at leadership. To back up his claim, he cited one of his own polls: It showed that only 12 percent of senior pastors say they have the spiritual gift of leadership and 8 percent say they have the gift of evangelism. In contrast, two-thirds say they have the gift of teaching or preaching.
"We, not God, have created a system that doesn't work and that we're reluctant to change."
Barna also is in the early stages of establishing a genuine and appealing Christian presence in secular entities: film, music, media and politics. He has identified these as the institutions that hold the most influence over Americans.
What's needed are "skilled professionals who love Christ and model his ways through their thoughts, words and behavior in enviable and biblically consistent ways," he said.
For Barna, the need for better leadership and better Christian role models in the secular world was underscored by a poll he released this month.
9/11 opportunity lost
The survey showed that the Sept. 11 attacks had virtually no lasting effects on America's faith, despite a 20 percent rise in church attendance during the first few weeks afterward.
"We missed a huge opportunity," he said, adding that, because of their own shallow faith, church regulars needed so much reassurance themselves that they couldn't minister to newcomers.
This kind of comment bothers evangelical Christians.
Mike Regele, author of "The Death of the Church," is one of many who believe the Barna Research Group's statistical work is excellent, but the conclusions drawn by the company's founder are too harsh.
The hypocrisy of Christians, Regele said, "has been a part of the church, probably since the day of Pentecost" and doesn't indicate its collapse.
"It sounds like he's very, very angry at the church," said Regele, a church critic himself who is ultimately an optimist. "There are reasons to be disappointed, but scripture never said we'd be perfect. We shouldn't view the whole institution as a failure."
With each new Barna poll or book, the attacks begin again: He's too negative; he has it in for pastors; he's arrogant.
The criticism "would affect any human being," said Barna, a husband and father of two. "We all want to be loved and accepted by others, but we also have a higher calling to which we each must be true."
Barna said he has learned painfully that giving advice on how to revitalize churches in America is a hugely complex proposition that doesn't fit well into sound bites. He has learned to be more guarded.
Although his statistics often show self-described Christians living lives no different from those of atheists, Barna's faith never has wavered.
"The issue isn't whether Jesus or Christianity is real," he said. "The issue is, are Americans willing to put Christ first in their lives?
I'll post whenever and to whoever I want.
He claims to have read the OT "thoroughly" and he claims that I have not. Therefore let him answer a simple question and "well known" answer about one of the 12 tribes. If that's slander, then he has slandered me and we're even.
angelo has not slandered you as you have him, he only questions your knowledge of the OT.
Here let me quote what you said: JesseShurun: "Maybe the fake Jew knows." that is slander bud.
BigMack
I said nothing of the sort.
All I said was that, to my perspective (having held both opinions at one time or another), I do not believe that the actions of Arminian evangelists are consistant with their beliefs. I never faulted Arminians for ANYTHING other than an inconsistancy that I perceive.
***
Wrigley you just needed drag in my faitih, this has nothing to do with my faith!
It has to do with your kind that stalking me in the name ofGod. No matter what forum I was on you were there to ostersize/blackball. I tried humor with you it did not work.
WRIGLEY get a grip!
one would think I rob a bank, or had a hit on someone life, or take bribes, steal an election.
WHAT I DID DO WAS ESCAPE FROM THOSE LIKE YOU WRIGLEY! AND YOUR TYRANT CONTROL!
I think that Irresistable Grace, if taken to a ridiculous extreme, would cause some to say, "If God's Grace is Irresistable, then why should I bother witnessing to my neighbor. Either they are Elect or they are not, nothing I do can change that."
I don't consider myself an Arminian or a Calvinist. I think the Truth lies somewhere in between.
Does "humanist" mean "not Calvinistic?" Cause our discussion was within our Christian experience, just not in the narrow bounds Calvinists restrict God to.
and then SD comes over here and tells me that I have to have some kind of mental or emotional disorder to be a Calvinist for actually believing the Bible over the humanistic ramblings of two non-Calvinists.
You believe your own self-flattering interpretation of the Bible. And that this is a great comfort to those who used to be terrified of doing something wrong is testified to by several of the Calvinists here. They were afraid that God would punish them if they did something wrong, so they embraced a philosophy whereby their salvation is arbitrary, yet assured, and that their actions are guranteed to be exactly what God desires. It is a very attractive theology and it is no wonder that many people cling to it.
Hey dave, aren't you the one who boasted on this thread that he gets pleasure watching the suffering of others? It does seem as if there is still actually a mental disease with that description.
Yes, thanks for bringing that up. The difference here is that I confessed it as a guilty pleasure, with a wink ;-) to indicate that I was speaking partly in jest. In any event, even if I am guilty I in no way considered my sinful acts to be "the Gospel." Which is entirely different from the mental coping mechanism that Calvinists construct, then cling to. They hold it to be "the Gospel."
SD
My point is that your perceptions are colored by your Calvinistic prejudices, just as an Arminian's perception of a Calvinist's actions, compared to Calvinistic beliefs as perceived by the Arminian, are colored by his Arminianist prejudices.
I think I just confused myself...
And I really think they just can't help it.
SD
Now it seems to me you denied that was your position earlier..
God has determined the method of regeneration and has allowed men to be His hands and voice here
Listen to one Calvinist ( One knocked down by the irrestible grace of God and he KNEW it )speak here ;
1Cr 1:21 For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.
That is why we give the gospel, not because WE save anyone..we simply obey the command of Jesus to go and tell..He does the rest..
1Cr 1:18 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.
read that verse real close
Yea it is almost like telling a Catholic they are deceived :>)
What am I denying?
BigMack
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