Tom, lick your fingers or be DAMNED!!
Posted on 11/05/2025 3:33:09 AM PST by CharlesOConnell
"Unless you eat my body and drink my blood, you have no life within you." — John 6:53 (The disciples who would turn against you, interpreted this as cannibalism. One of the plagues of Egypt had been the river turning into blood, because the Egyptians consumed the blood of sacrificial animals to gain their life strength, a kind of bodily idolatry, against your command. So the Lord God made that blood one of the plagues, to choke in their craws.) Then when you totally reversed that, Jesus, in the new dispensation, saying "unless you eat my body and drink my blood, you have no life within you", those disciples wouldn't allow you to do it. So many of them left you.
In my creation of my you as my little idol in my own image, Jesus, you never did turn to your apostles, (drawing a figurative line on the floor for them to have to cross), and you never did say, "Will you leave me also?" — John 6:67 (Implicitly, you, Jesus, were unwilling to go all the way to the bitter end, to 'go nuclear', with your saying, "Unless you eat my body and drink my blood…").
No, in my creation of the Jesus I want you to be, you only said, "Wait a minute, I was only speaking figuratively; it was just a symbol; when I say, 'This is my body, this is my blood, do this in remembrance of me', that is not literally true, it might as well be done with cheap cookies and cough-syrup tasting grape juice, because it is only a communal meal to prompt the people to have warm, rosy feelings about one another."
So in my creation of you, the Jesus I want you to be in my own image, you are not allowed to delegate to your mother, being the mediatrix of all graces—meaning, that all graces, all free goods not awarded because they are owed to us, but all totally free spiritual goods that are a pure gift merely out of your goodness without our deserving anything—I do not allow, you, the Jesus I make in my own image, to give your mother the absolute power to dispense all those graces totally according to her own judgment and will.
No, Jesus, you cannot give Mary that dignity. I restrict you, I deny you your omnipotence to make her free from sin the way you made Eve at the beginning before her fall with temptation from Satan. I deny you, Jesus, the all-power to make Mary totally pure, "macula non est in te", no stain is in you. — Song of Songs/Canticles 4:7
For you to make Mary the flawless, total human being, with the full integral value of 1 complete, perfect humanity the way you conceived the idea of her from before the beginning, a mirror of the infinity of God—for you to give her that dignity, "takes away from your dignity". You may not be so humble as to obey her because she asks only for what you would will—you may not make her the woman clothed with the sun, standing on the moon, with the twelve stars for a crown. (Revelation 12:1) Do not do that, Jesus, I forbid it.
I deny you, Jesus, the power to decide to do that, because my brethren of non-Catholic ecclesial communities, who reduced the sacraments from seven down to two, and threw out matrimony which is the image of your heavenly marriage with your people, will be offended if you do it.
I deny you the right to make marriage holy, because that restricts my freedom of carnal expression, and requires that I only have one wife, and not throw out my old wife for some new, young Barbie, because of the hardness of my heart. — Matthew 19:8
I deny you the right to make your mother immaculate, to make her womb to be a heaven above the seven heavens, the enclosed garden of your divine enjoyment of her, in which you reside in the incarnation of God made man at the annunciation of the angel Gabriel.
You are not being the god I create in my own image, you are straying off the reservation, you are defying my will, who is my own self-made god, who does not say with you, "Father … not what I will, but what you will". (Mark 14:36) No, Jesus, not what you will, but WHAT I WILL.
Excellent answer to the “Church of What’s Happening Now”.
Actually, reads like a stream of consciousness running with assertions to reinterpret scripture in man’s traditions as opposed to using scripture to interpret scripture.
Shouldn’t this be listed as a vanity since it is a self-post?
What a crock..
How does that make Him a sinless savior?
Don't eat the blood, the life is in the blood
Genesis 9:4 But you shall not eat flesh with its life , that is, its blood.
Leviticus 3:17 It shall be a statute forever throughout your generations, in all your dwelling places, that you eat neither fat nor blood.”
Leviticus 7:26-27 Moreover, you shall eat no blood whatever, whether of fowl or of animal, in any of your dwelling places. Whoever eats any blood, that person shall be cut off from his people.”
Leviticus 17:10-14 “If any one of the house of Israel or of the strangers who sojourn among them eats any blood, I will set my face against that person who eats blood and will cut him off from among his people. For the life of the flesh is in the blood, and I have given it for you on the altar to make atonement for your souls, for it is the blood that makes atonement by the life. Therefore I have said to the people of Israel, No person among you shall eat blood, neither shall any stranger who sojourns among you eat blood.
“Any one also of the people of Israel, or of the strangers who sojourn among them, who takes in hunting any beast or bird that may be eaten shall pour out its blood and cover it with earth. For the life of every creature is its blood: its blood is its life. Therefore I have said to the people of Israel, You shall not eat the blood of any creature, for the life of every creature is its blood. Whoever eats it shall be cut off.
Leviticus 19:26 “You shall not eat any flesh with the blood in it. You shall not interpret omens or tell fortunes.
Deuteronomy 12:16 Only you shall not eat the blood ; you shall pour it out on the earth like water.
Deuteronomy 12:23 Only be sure that you do not eat the blood, for the blood is the life , and you shall not eat the life with the flesh.
Deuteronomy 15:23 Only you shall not eat its blood; you shall pour it out on the ground like water.
Acts 15:12-29 And all the assembly fell silent, and they listened to Barnabas and Paul as they related what signs and wonders God had done through them among the Gentiles. After they finished speaking, James replied, “Brothers, listen to me. Simeon has related how God first visited the Gentiles, to take from them a people for his name. And with this the words of the prophets agree, just as it is written,
“‘After this I will return, and I will rebuild the tent of David that has fallen; I will rebuild its ruins, and I will restore it, that the remnant of mankind may seek the Lord, and all the Gentiles who are called by my name, says the Lord, who makes these things known from of old.’
Therefore my judgment is that we should not trouble those of the Gentiles who turn to God, but should write to them to abstain from the things polluted by idols, and from sexual immorality, and from what has been strangled, and from blood. For from ancient generations Moses has had in every city those who proclaim him, for he is read every Sabbath in the synagogues.”
Then it seemed good to the apostles and the elders, with the whole church, to choose men from among them and send them to Antioch with Paul and Barnabas. They sent Judas called Barsabbas, and Silas, leading men among the brothers, with the following letter:
“The brothers, both the apostles and the elders, to the brothers who are of the Gentiles in Antioch and Syria and Cilicia, greetings. Since we have heard that some persons have gone out from us and troubled you with words, unsettling your minds, although we gave them no instructions, it has seemed good to us, having come to one accord, to choose men and send them to you with our beloved Barnabas and Paul, men who have risked their lives for the name of our Lord Jesus Christ. We have therefore sent Judas and Silas, who themselves will tell you the same things by word of mouth. For it has seemed good to the Holy Spirit and to us to lay on you no greater burden than these requirements: that you abstain from what has been sacrificed to idols, and from blood, and from what has been strangled, and from sexual immorality. If you keep yourselves from these, you will do well. Farewell.”
And at the Last Supper, Jesus acknowledged that the cup was the fruit of the vine, not blood.
Matthew 26:29 I tell you I will not drink again of this fruit of the vine until that day when I drink it new with you in my Father’s kingdom.”
Mark 14:25 Truly, I say to you, I will not drink again of the fruit of the vine until that day when I drink it new in the kingdom of God.”
Luke 22:18 For I tell you that from now on I will not drink of the fruit of the vine until the kingdom of God comes.”
And FWIW, Jesus HIMSELF told His disciples that He had been speaking figuratively right here in John 6:63.
John 6:63 It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh is no help at all. The words that I have spoken to you are spirit and life.
Let’s begin with John 6:
“I am the bread of life. Your fathers did eat manna in the desert and are dead. This is the bread which cometh down from heaven: that if any man eat of it, he may not die. I am the living bread which came down from heaven. If any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, for the life of the world. The Jews therefore strove among themselves, saying: ‘How can this man give us his flesh to eat?’ Then Jesus said to them: ‘Amen, amen, I say unto you: except you eat the flesh of the Son of man and drink his blood, you shall not have life in you.’… But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that did not believe and who he was that would betray him. John 6: 48-54, 65
So here we see the first link between not believing in the real presence and betrayal. And then later:
"Because of this many of His disciples turned back and no longer went about with Him." (John 6:66)
This is the only place in Scripture where His followers left because of a teaching. Christ never said – “Hey – come back! It’s only a cookie!
Later in John 13:
When Jesus had said these things, he was troubled in spirit; and he testified, and said: ‘Amen, amen, I say to you, one of you shall betray me.’ The disciples therefore looked one upon another, doubting of whom he spoke. Now there was leaning on Jesus' bosom one of his disciples, whom Jesus loved. Simon Peter therefore beckoned to him and said to him: ‘Who is it of whom he speaketh?’ He therefore, leaning on the breast of Jesus, saith to him: Lord, who is it? Jesus answered: ‘He it is to whom I shall reach bread dipped.’ And when he had dipped the bread, he gave it to Judas Iscariot, the son of Simon.
And after the morsel, Satan entered into him.” John 13:21-27
The betrayal of Christ was now complete. To Judas, this was only bread and wine. Satan entered into the heart of Judas that he conquered with doubt about the word “IS”
Paul understood the real presence, and later talks about the dangers of not discerning the real presence of Christ’s in the bread:
“For I have received of the Lord that which also I delivered unto you, that the Lord Jesus, the same night in which he was betrayed, took bread, And giving thanks, broke and said: Take ye and eat: This is my body, which shall be delivered for you. This do for the commemoration of me. In like manner also the chalice, after he had supped, saying: This chalice is the new testament in my blood. This do ye, as often as you shall drink, for the commemoration of me. For as often as you shall eat this bread and drink the chalice, you shall show the death of the Lord, until he come. Therefore, whosoever shall eat this bread, or drink the chalice of the Lord unworthily, shall be guilty of the body and of the blood of the Lord. But let a man prove himself: and so let him eat of that bread and drink of the chalice. For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily eateth and drinketh judgment to himself, not discerning the body of the Lord. Therefore are there many infirm and weak among you: and many sleep. But if we would judge ourselves, we should not be judged.” 1 Cor 11:23-31
Many are weak, infirmed and dead in spirit for not believing. How in the world do you eat bread unworthily? What part of “not discerning the body of the Lord” is confusing?
Indeed, the devil is happy when people deny the real presence in the Eucharist.
"Who, but the devil, has granted such license of wresting the words of the holy Scripture? Who ever read in the Scriptures, that my body is the same as the sign of my body? or, that is is the same as it signifies? What language in the world ever spoke so? It is only then the devil, that imposes upon us by these fanatical men. Not one of the Fathers of the Church, though so numerous, ever spoke as the Sacramentarians: not one of them ever said, It is only bread and wine; or, the body and blood of Christ is not there present.
Surely, it is not credible, nor possible, since they often speak, and repeat their sentiments, that they should never (if they thought so) not so much as once, say, or let slip these words: It is bread only; or the body of Christ is not there, especially it being of great importance, that men should not be deceived. Certainly, in so many Fathers, and in so many writings, the negative might at least be found in one of them, had they thought the body and blood of Christ were not really present: but they are all of them unanimous.”
–Luther’s Collected Works, Wittenburg Edition, no. 7 p, 391
So Martin Luther says only the devil believes the bread is only bread. Where would he get such an idea? From Christ Himself!
definitely a vanity
Which is exactly what you are ignorant of, for the body not being discerned contextually refers to the body Christ, the "one loaf," "one bread" of saints bought by His sinless shed blood, which is what selfish Corinthians were not effectually recognizing, and does not refer to the nature of the elements, which is clearly contrary to the context.
In which the Corinthians were hypocritically supposing to be remembering the Lord's death, by which the the Corinthians had union with Christ and each other and were supposed to be declaring (1 Corinthians 11:26) by sharing bread as themselves being "one bread," (1 Corinthians 10:17)
yet some were eating independently and to the full (the Lord's supper was not a bit of bread and wine) and leaving others hungry, thus shaming other blood-bought members, utterly contrary to effectually remembering and thus proclaiming the Lord's death which bought them and made them one bread, because they were not recognizing/treating other blood-bought members of His body as being members,
And thus were told that they were not coming together to eat the Lord's supper, and with the solution being that of self-examination (1 Corinthians 11:28) and waiting for each other, and not coming hungry to that communal feast. (1 Corinthians 11:33)
The nature of the elements is not at issue here, and are referred to as "bread" and "cup," consuming which declares/preaches (kataggellō) the Lord’s death, (1 Corinthians 11:26) but as in the preceding snd proceeding chapters, the focus is on the body of Christ, which was bought by His death, with His sinless shed blood, (Acts 20:28) to the glory of God in Christ.
Even the notes in the official RC bible for Americans states concerning "not discerning the Lord’s body" states,
"It follows that the only proper way to celebrate the Eucharist is one that corresponds to Jesus' intention, which fits with the meaning of his command to reproduce his action in the proper spirit. If the Corinthians eat and drink unworthily, i.e., without having grasped and internalized the meaning of his death for them, they will have to answer for the body and blood, i.e., will be guilty of a sin against the Lord himself (cf ⇒ 1 Cor 8:12 [But when ye sin so against the brethren, and wound their weak conscience, ye sin against Christ. (1 Corinthians 8:12)]).
At length (pardon some redundancy),
Now in this that I declare unto you I praise you not, that ye come together not for the better, but for the worse. For first of all, when ye come together in the church, I hear that there be divisions among you; and I partly believe it. For there must be also heresies [sects] among you, that they which are approved may be made manifest among you. When ye come together therefore into one place, this is not to eat the Lord’s supper. For in eating every one taketh before other his own supper: and one is hungry, and another is drunken. What? have ye not houses to eat and to drink in? or despise ye the church of God, and shame them that have not? What shall I say to you? shall I praise you in this? I praise you not. (1 Corinthians 11:17-22)
Thus they failed to effectually remember the Lord's death, who bought them with His sinless shed blood (Acts 20;28) and made them one with the Lord and each other, and failed to show/declare/preach the Lord's death which Paul proceeds to state they where to do after repeating the Lord's words of consecration:
For I have received of the Lord that which also I delivered unto you, That the Lord Jesus the same night in which he was betrayed took bread: And when he had given thanks, he brake it, and said, Take, eat: this is my body, which is broken for you: this do in remembrance of me. After the same manner also he took the cup, when he had supped, saying, This cup is the new testament in my blood: this do ye, as oft as ye drink it, in remembrance of me. For as often as ye eat this bread, and drink this cup, ye do shew [kataggellō=preach, declare] the Lord’s death till he come. (1 Corinthians 11:23-26)And thus by independently and selfishly eating and to the full while ignoring members of the body of Christ they were supposed to be coming together as, to effectually remember the Lord's death which effected the unity they were to show, then they failed to discern the Lord's body (and which Paul majors on), contextually this being the church, and which body the adjoining chapters (10+11) elaborate on, and which problem is what the focus was on.
And therefore the solution to the issue is that of self-examination (as to how they are acting consistent with the death of Christ) and eating at home:
Wherefore whosoever shall eat this bread, and drink this cup of the Lord, unworthily, shall be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord. But let a man examine himself, and so let him eat of that bread, and drink of that cup. For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh damnation to himself, not discerning the Lord’s body....Wherefore, my brethren, when ye come together to eat, tarry one for another. And if any man hunger, let him eat at home; that ye come not together unto condemnation. And the rest will I set in order when I come. (1 Corinthians 11:27-29, 33-34)
Thus contextually, from beginning to end, "When ye come together therefore into one place, this is not to eat the Lord’s supper," (1 Corinthians 11:20) and "let him eat at home; that ye come not together unto condemnation" this all refers to their sin of how they were acting, utterly hypocritical by selfishly filling themselves, ignoring others, while they were supposed to be remembering the Lord's death which made them one, and were to manifest being one bread, and thus were unworthy to take part in this communal feast of charity.
And as seen in the previous chapter, to take part in religious dedicatory pagan feasts would mean they would have fellowship with devils (1 Corinthians 10:20) - not by consuming their flesh of devils, but by identifying with them in taking part in worship, like as the bread which believers break in the Lord’s supper is the communion of the body of Christ. (1 Corinthians 10:16)
In contrast, nowhere in 1 Co. 11 (nor anywhere interpretive of the gospels) is there any elaboration on the nature of the food being consumed and reproving them for not recognizing this, despite the Catholic attempts to read this into the simple reiterating of the Lord's words of consecration in 1 Co. 11.
Thus this section, as with the gospel accounts, must be interpreted in context, and related to this, in the rest of Scripture the word of God is the only spiritual food described which gives life, being "milk" (1Pt. 2:2) and "meat" Heb. 5:12-14 by which one is nourished (1Tim. 4:6) and built up, (Acts 20:32) and who are to let the word of God dwell in them richly, and thereby teach others, (Col. 3:16) and with the preaching of it the evident means of feeding the flock. (Acts 20:28; cf. 2 Timothy 4:2)
Even the notes in the official RC bible for Americans states concerning "not discerning the Lord’s body" states, "It follows that the only proper way to celebrate the Eucharist is one that corresponds to Jesus' intention, which fits with the meaning of his command to reproduce his action in the proper spirit. If the Corinthians eat and drink unworthily, i.e., without having grasped and internalized the meaning of his death for them, they will have to answer for the body and blood, i.e., will be guilty of a sin against the Lord himself (cf ⇒ 1 Cor 8:12 [But when ye sin so against the brethren, and wound their weak conscience, ye sin against Christ. (1 Corinthians 8:12)]).
To start however. now I will just post a collection of previous refutations by such in response to agent provocateurs, and first, a response as regards Catholic OConnell's sewage of sophistry in service to his earthly object of faith and security.
...son of man, hear what I say unto thee; Be not thou rebellious like that rebellious house: open thy mouth, and eat that I give thee....fill thy bowels with this roll that I give thee. Then did I eat it; and it was in my mouth as honey for sweetness. (Ezekiel 2:8, 3:3)
theLord's use of metaphor in relation to eating as correspondent to obtaining spiritual life was not new: Ho, every one that thirsteth, come ye to the waters, and he that hath no money; come ye, buy, and eat; yea, come, buy wine and milk without money and without price. Wherefore do ye spend money for that which is not bread? and your labour for that which satisfieth not? hearken diligently unto me, and eat ye that which is good, and let your soul delight itself in fatness. Incline your ear, and come unto me: hear, and your soul shall live; and I will make an everlasting covenant with you, even the sure mercies of David. (Isaiah 55:1-3) And such use for eating or drinking is what the apostles would have been familiar with, to which the Lord's representative use of bread and wine for His body and bread is correspondent to, versus the foreign concept of requiring physical consuming human flesh for spiritual purposes. A few more examples from Scripture pertinent to this are: And the three mighty men brake through the host of the Philistines, and drew water out of the well of Bethlehem, that was by the gate, and took it, and brought it to David: nevertheless he would not drink thereof, but poured it out unto the Lord. And he said, Be it far from me, O Lord, that I should do this: is not this the blood of the men that went in jeopardy of their lives? therefore he would not drink it. (2 Samuel 23:16-17) Here, David clearly calls drinking water human blood, and consistent with the command of Deuteronomy 12:16, 15:23 (cf. Lv. 17:10,11), he poured it on to the ground, and did so as an act of worship unto the Lord. What David did not do was contrive some metaphysical justification for drinking this, but to be consistent with the professed plain-language hermeneutic Catholics insist they hold to in regards to "this is my body," then they should also insist this was literal in this case. As well as when God clearly states that the Canaanites were “bread: • “Only rebel not ye against the LORD, neither fear ye the people of the land; for they are bread for us” (Num. 14:9) Other examples of the use of figurative language for eating and drinking include, • The Promised Land was “a land that eateth up the inhabitants thereof.” (Num. 13:32) • David said that his enemies came to “eat up my flesh.” (Ps. 27:2) • And complained that workers of iniquity ”eat up my people as they eat bread , and call not upon the Lord.” (Psalms 14:4) • And the Lord also said, “I will consume man and beast; I will consume the fowls of the heaven, and the fishes of the sea, and the stumblingblocks with the wicked; and I will cut off man from off the land, saith the Lord.” (Zephaniah 1:3) • While even arrows can drink: “I will make mine arrows drunk with blood, and my sword shall devour flesh ; and that with the blood of the slain and of the captives, from the beginning of revenges upon the enemy.' (Deuteronomy 32:42) • But David says the word of God (the Law) was “sweeter also than honey and the honeycomb. (Psalms 19:10) • Another psalmist also declared the word as “sweet:” “How sweet are thy words unto my taste! yea, sweeter than honey to my mouth!” (Psalms 119:103) • Jeremiah likewise proclaimed, “Your words were found. and I ate them. and your word was to me the joy and rejoicing of my heart” (Jer. 15:16) • Ezekiel was told to eat the words, “open thy mouth, and eat that I give thee...” “eat that thou findest; eat this scroll, and go, speak to the house of Israel.” (Ezek. 2:8, 3:1) • John is also commanded, “Take the scroll ... Take it and eat it.” (Rev. 10:8-9 ) And Scripture refers to Christ being spiritual food and drink which even OT believers consumed: • And did all eat the same spiritual meat; "And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ." (1 Corinthians 10:3-4) • And Christ's word in Jn. 6, "I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst," (John 6:35) are correspondent to, "Wherefore do ye spend money for that which is not bread? and your labour for that which satisfieth not? hearken diligently unto me, and eat ye that which is good, and let your soul delight itself in fatness. Incline your ear, and come unto me: hear, and your soul shall live; and I will make an everlasting covenant with you, even the sure mercies of David." (Isaiah 55:2-3) • Moreover, like as bread is broken, Is. 53:10 states that "it pleased the Lord to bruise him," and the word for "bruise" (da^ka^') basically means to crumble, to break, crush, etc. as well as bruise..., (Strong's). And like as wine is poured out, so Is. 53:12 also states of Christ, "he hath poured out his soul unto death," both of which are correspondent to the words of the Last Supper regarding bread and wine. And which use of figurative language for Christ and spiritual things abounds in John, using the physical to refer to the spiritual: • In John 1:29, Jesus is called “the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world” — but he does not have hoofs and literal physical wool. • In John 2:19 Jesus is the temple of God: “Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up” — but He is not made of literal stone. • In Jn. 3:3 one must be "born" anew, and with "wind" representing the Spirit; (Jn. 3:8) and in John 3:14, 15, Jesus is the likened to the serpent in the wilderness (Num. 21) but He is not made of literal bronze. • In John 4:14, Jesus provides living water, that “whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall be in him a well of water springing up into everlasting life,” — but which was not literally consumed by mouth. And "meat" is continually living by/obeying the will of the Father; (John 4:34; cf. Mt. 4:4) • And in chapter 5 John the baptizer was a "shining light;" (Jn. 5:35) • And in chapter 6 "eating" and drinking Jesus means receiving and living by every word of God as Jesus did, and whose words are Spirit and life; (Jn. 6:53, 57, 63) With this being what Scripture describes as spiritual food, ,as "milk" (1Pt. 2:2) and "meat" Heb. 5:12-14 by which one is nourished (1Tim. 4:6) and built up, (Acts 20:32) by which word (Scriptures) man is to live by, (Mt. 4:4) and who are to let the word of God dwell in them richly, and thereby teach others, (Col. 3:16) as Christ lived by the Father, (Jn. 6:57) doing His will being His �meat.� (Jn. 4:34) and with the preaching of it the evident means of feeding the flock? (Acts 20:28; cf. 2 Timothy 4:2) • In John 7:37 Jesus is the One who promises “He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water” — but believers were not water fountains, but He spoke ”of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive.” (John 7:38) • And in John chapter 8 one can "taste of death;" (Jn. 8:52) • In Jn. 9:5 Jesus is “the Light of the world” — but who is not blocked by an umbrella. •In John 10, Jesus is “the door of the sheep,” and “the good shepherd [who] giveth his life for the sheep”, “that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly” vs. 7, 10, 11) — but who again, is not literally an animal with cloven hoofs. • And in chapter eleven dead Lazarus is "sleeping;" (Jn. 11:11) • And in chapter 12 Jesus is the the Light and the "arm of the Lord;" (Jn. 12:36) • And in chapter 13 "washing" and being made clean is spiritual; (John 13:10) • And in chapter 14 Jesus is "the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me;" (John 14:6) • In John 15, Jesus is the true vine — but who does not physically grow from the ground nor whose fruit is literally physically consumed. And disciples are "branches" who abide in the Vine as His words abide in them; (Jn. 15:7 • And in chapter 16 the "Comforter" is the Spirit; (Jn. 16:7) Thus even a partial examination reveals that such use of figurative speech especially abounds in John, with over 35 instances of such being counted besides the use of "meat" and drink" in chapter 6. And which gospel characteristically contrasts the physical with the spiritual, as is the case contextually in chapter 6, in which the Lord feeds multitudes physically and in response to the demand for more, tells the supplicants labor not for the meat which does perish, but for that meat which endureth unto everlasting life, and which He then defines as believing on Him. (Jn. 6:27-29) And which is how He "lived by the Father," and said that we are to live by Him (Jn. 6:57) believing and thus doing His will, that being His "meat," (Jn. 4:34) and thus the Jn. 6 discourse ends with the Lord declaring that the flesh (as in consuming it) profits nothing, but His words they "are spirit and are life." (Jn. 6:63) 1. Where in all of Scripture did the incarnate Jesus Christ appear as an inanimate, static object, which by all tests of physicality would be just that? 0 2. Where in Scripture is the manifest physicality of Christ emphasized as establishing who the real Christ was, in contrast to one whose bodily appearance did not correspond to what He physically was? (Is. 53; Lk. 24:39; John 20:27; 1 John 4:2; 5:6,8) 3. Where in all of Scripture did the words of the Lord's supper necessarily teach that the body that "is broken" and the blood that is shed, appeared as bread and wine, rather than literally appearing as the manifestly physical flesh and blood that was bruised and shed? 0 4. Where in Scripture is actual water referred to as blood, and thus poured out unto the Lord, and bread referred to as bread for the people of God, and the body of Christ as the church being bread? (2 Samuel 23:16-17; Num. 14:9) 5. Where in all of Scripture is spiritual life obtained by literally physically consuming anything? 0 6. Where in Acts and the apostles teaching in the NT (these being interpretive of the gospels) is spiritual life obtained by hearing and effectually believing the gospel of the grace of God? Acts 10:43; 15:7-9; Eph. 1:13) 7. Where from Acts onward in the NT is communion/partakers with the object of religious feasts and each other realized by literally consuming the flesh of the object of worship? 0 8. Where from Acts onward in the NT is communion/partakers with the object of religious feasts and each other realized by sharing a meal together ("feast of charity") in a way that effectually evidences remembrance? (1 Cor. 10,11 ) 9. Where are distinctive Greek words for a separate class of sacerdotal believers (hiereus; archiereus; hieráteuma) distinctively used for NT pastors? 0 10. Where is a distinctive Greek word (hieráteuma) for a separate class of sacerdotal believers used for all believers? (1Pt. 2:5,9; Re 1:6; 5:10; 20:6). 11. Where from Acts onward in the NT are church pastors charged with or exampled uniquely conducting the Lord's supper and offering it up as a sacrifice for sins and dispensing it to the people as spiritual food, and with that being their primary active pastoral function? 0 12. Where from Acts onward in the NT are church pastors charged with or exampled as preaching the Word and feeding the flock with the Word which is called spiritual food ("milk," "meat") by which they are nourished, with that being their primary active pastoral function? ? (Acts 20:28; 1Pt. 5:2 ;1Co. 3:22; 1Pt. 1:22; Heb. 5:12-14; 1 Timothy 4:6; Acts 20:32, For the Catholic contrivance of the Lord's supper is just one of the distinctive Catholic teachings are not manifest in the only wholly inspired substantive authoritative record of what the NT church believed (which is Scripture, in particular Acts through Revelation, which best shows how the NT church understood the gospels). . http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/religion/3606071/posts?page=103#103 http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/religion/3605783/posts?page=241#241 http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/religion/3580616/posts?page=33#33 http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/religion/3569332/posts?page=78#78 http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/religion/3567012/posts?page=38#38 http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/religion/3528045/posts?page=23#23 http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/bloggers/3529271/posts?page=59#59 http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/religion/3496810/posts?page=128#128 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Logical fallacy: having the power to do something does not translate into a fact that it was done. Why not have Mary do as the Holy Spirit attests Paul did (Rm. 15:19) Just add to the word of God what you want. Rather, you should might learn from the apostles "not to think of men above that which is written," (1 Corinthians 4:6) In this case, nowhere in Scripture does any believer pray to anyone else but only to God, who only knowest the hearts of the children of men. (2 Chronicles 6:30)
And God directs souls to pray to Him directly in Christ, "Our Father in Heaven,: not "Our Mother."
Your oral tradition is not equal to Scripture, for unlike men like the apostles, your popes and prelates do not speak as wholly inspired of God, nor are infallible men necessary for the word of God to be established as being so.
The hyper-exaltation of the holy virtuous blessed virgin and mother the incarnated Lord Jesus, her creator, to whom she owes everything, is just one of the distinctive Catholic teachings that are not manifest in the only wholly God-inspired, substantive, authoritative record of what the NT church believed the only wholly inspired substantive authoritative record of what the NT church believed (which is Scripture, and with Acts through Revelation especially revealing how the NT church understood the gospels).
Ready for another flame war provoking thread?
How convenient. You skipped over verse 63 where Jesus HIMSELF tells His disciples that the flesh is no help at all, that it's the SPIRIT who gives life.
John 6:63 It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh is no help at all. The words that I have spoken to you are spirit and life.
Jesus is NOT going to tell people to sin by violating the Law.
Expected exposition from the “Church of I’m Right and that’s it!”
Tom, lick your fingers or be DAMNED!!
What brought on this core dump?
I’m up for it!
They produce LOTS of Scripturally correct replies.
So you are suggesting Jesus says “Jesus said to them, “Very truly I tell you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you.” And then a few verses later says, “Oh, never mind!” You need to read the entire Scripture, not cherry pick verses that support your position.
John 6:63 refers to a contrast between the Spirit's ability to enlighten our minds But the Advocate, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you. John 14:26 and human reason’s inability to comprehend revealed truths, apart from faith. You judge by human standards; I pass judgment on no one. John 8:15. It is this earthbound perspective that is profitless in the face of divine mysteries. Also, note that Jesus is not speaking about His “flesh”, which does indeed give life to the world. I am the living bread that came down from heaven. Whoever eats this bread will live forever. This bread is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.” John 6:51. But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near by the blood of Christ For he himself is our peace, who has made the two groups one and has destroyed the barrier, the dividing wall of hostility, by setting aside in his flesh the law with its commands and regulations. His purpose was to create in himself one new humanity out of the two, thus making peace, and in one body to reconcile both of them to God through the cross, by which he put to death their hostility. Eph 2:13-16, And by that will, we have been made holy through the sacrifice of the body of Jesus Christ once for all. Heb 10:10
Taken with what goes before and after 6:63, The words clearly refer to the unspiritual, carnal-minded disciples. It is the spiritual view inspired by faith that gives life; carnal understanding is pointless.
1 Cor 11:17-23 But in the following instructions I do not commend you, because when you come together it is not for the better but for the worse. For, in the first place, when you come together as a church, I hear that there are divisions among you. And I believe it in part, for there must be factions among you in order that those who are genuine among you may be recognized. When you come together, it is not the Lord’s supper that you eat. For in eating, each one goes ahead with his own meal. One goes hungry, another gets drunk. What! Do you not have houses to eat and drink in? Or do you despise the church of God and humiliate those who have nothing? What shall I say to you? Shall I commend you in this? No, I will not.
So, in CONTEXT, do the verses YOU quoted convey Paul's understanding of (in your view) the "real presence" OR as most everyone else properly interprets the passage to be a correction to the Corinthians regarding the manner they were celebrating the Lord's Supper?
As with THIS commentary:
The Corinthians were using their gatherings around the Lord’s Table as occasions to make social distinctions between rich and poor. Paul is profoundly troubled by this development and argues strongly against it.
Or this one:
The love feast and communion celebration had become so perverted that it was a sinful, selfish mockery. The Corinthian Christians could not legitimately say it was devoted to the Lord, since it was not honoring to Him.
Or this one:
The Lord’s Supper should have been the remembrance of a preeminently selfless act, Christ’s death on behalf of others. Instead the Corinthians had turned the memorial of selflessness into an experience of selfishness and had made a rite of unity a riotous disunity. While one brother went hungry because he lacked the means to eat well, another brother drank to excess.
Honestly, it would be hard to find any commentary that presents the view that FatherofFive described.
He really should follow the imperative of 2 Tim 2:15
Now I've go to go do leaves. Buh-Bye
You ought to get yourself a good study Bible instead of shootin’ from the hip like that.
Could you be more specific?
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