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Locked on 04/24/2022 5:40:39 AM PDT by Religion Moderator, reason:
Childishness |
Posted on 03/06/2022 11:16:06 AM PST by CharlesOConnell
A man commits a serious crime, then he gets released. He has "paid his debt to society". But wait a minute, he's only ready for the half-way house. He's unlikely to get a prestigious job in his new prison suit coat, or any job at all; he has civil impediments, he can't vote or hold certain offices. His crime was serious enough that he won't be presumed to have been completely rehabilitated until he performs a notable service to society, or at least spends many years on the straight and narrow, so that his crime can be truly overlooked or forgotten.
In Catholic faith, your "debt to society" is paid by Jesus Christ on Calvary. It's called "eternal punishment", without Christ it keeps you from going to heaven. Supposing that you do take advantage of His sacrifice, you're truly sorry, have a firm purpose of amendment, if you relapse, you go again for forgiveness (to the Sacrament of Confession).
But your sin leaves a strong trace at another layer of impurity called "temporal punishment due to sin", like the civil impediments facing the half-way house prisoner. Because "nothing impure can enter heaven", there is a place or a state, a condition of purification to render you fit for heaven after Christ has finally saved you from hell. The Catholic Church calls it purgatory.
(Where is it in the bible? Where is the word Trinity in the bible? Where does it say that you only need a personal relationship with Jesus Christ? Many valid principles aren't stated explicitly in the bible, but it does say to "hold fast to the traditions you have learned, whether by word or by letter", because much of the Gospel wasn't written down, as Jesus only wrote in the sand, the majority of the Gospel was taught from word to ear to people who couldn't afford expensive books, the exceptions were what tended to get written down. But the implication that there is a purgatory, is contained in the bible--see the comments.)
The ex-con can receive a pardon or commutation of his probation from a Governor, if he performs some heroic deed, saving numerous lives, or, like Chuck Colson, performs a long-lasting, valuable community service helping numerous people who can't help themselves.
In the Catholic Church there are 2 ways for the residual, temporal effects due to sin to be expiated: suffering in this life, or after life, undergoing purifying suffering along with other people who will finally be saved, but have to suffer for long without the vision of God--that is what causes them their pain.
Their suffering isn't meritorious enough to grant their release, the saints in heaven and those on earth suffering and practicing virtue can pray for the suffering souls in purgatory. In no way is their release by slow transfer of suffering or practice of virtue, "buying heaven". It's a long, excruciating process.
How the misunderstanding arose that Catholics think they can buy their way into heaven, is involved with history more than 500 years old. For a millennium of Christendom between roughly 410 and 1410, there was a Medieval civilization with harmony between faith and government.
Many small farmers would cluster around the manor house of a military lord who would protect them, in exchange for a certain fixed obligation of labor and agricultural produce. In most cases, those "serfs" had much more leisure than factory workers of the industrial revolution; there were a large number of holy days without work, and except for planting and harvesting, there were long stretches of idle time.
Another large sector of the economy surrounded monasteries, where the monks developed most of the farming practices that stabilized the serfs and their manorial lords. The monks who worked those monastic lands were sworn to poverty, so that monasteries built up large accumulations of economic value over decades and centuries of labor.
At the beginning, when lands were being cleared and put into production there weren't prominent town fairs ruled by merchants and bankers. Money wasn't used for sustenance, not even much barter occurred, life was mostly agrarian.
Charity was woven into the economy of monasteries. It was estimated that you only need travel 12 miles in medieval England between monasteries, where you could get a meal and minimal lodging for free, based on need. And the charity was also spiritual, including the ancient Catholic principle of prayer for the dead, which is biblical. (See "prayer for the dead" in the original King James Bible in the comment.)
There were foundations and benefices for praying for the dead, that allowed a person of means to support monasteries' charitable works, and in proportional response the monks would pray for the souls of the donors.
It happened at the close of the middle ages, that militarily strong nobles cast their eyes on the labor value accumulated by the poverty-sworn monks of the monasteries, which those nobles perceived as monetary wealth, especially where gold and jewels had been donated by the devout to adorn churches.
(Protestant writer William Cobbett wrote in his 1824 "A History of the Protestant Reformation in England and Ireland", an anecdote, that an incredibly valuable, hand illustrated bible was stripped of it's bejeweled, gold cover, the much more valuable hand-illumined manuscript, thrown in the mud and trampled by horses hooves by raiders suppressing the monasteries in Henry VIII's England.)
A new religion growing up around this seizure of monastic lands and valuables, that sought to discredit the Catholic Church, spread the black legend that the "sale of indulgences" was abusive. But this was very exceptional. Today the stipend of a Mass said for the dead is $10.
Do you have Free Will?
Were his crimes sins? I don't doubt that. We are given with this scene a man of sin being cleansed of his sins by The Word of The Lord! THAT IS special indeed. However, you make a few assertions that are not accurate but rather are traditions of your religion.
As stated, the assigning of glorified to the thief in that scene is erroneous. Even the use of sanctification is erroneous since sanctification is a process EVER born again member of the Body of Christ undergo in their life following their spirit being redeemed and God's Spirit abiding in them (1 John 3:9), a poster's assertion otherwise not withstanding.
There is also a theme of mixing time stamps of the formation of The Church of all believers (not speaking of the Catholic Org here).
So there ya go, I just went back on my own decision to wash my hands of you. You are too deeply enthralled with catholiciism for me to reach you. I leave you to the Spirit work which God may or may not have in store for you. You may be one of that number coming out of the first part of the Tribulation years, a number so great John could not count them ... and he could count to 200 million, at least.
You have rejected at least two of the things I offered to you, so I do have those examples of your disbelief. ONLY through study would someone find the notion of soul and spirit being separated when the spirit is born again. It also requires reason, where God does not put His abiding spirit into the flesh. He abides in the spirit of the born agains (1 John 3:9). Since The Holy Spirit never leaves someone once he takes up abiding in their spirit that human redeemed spirit does not sleep in the dust because it is with The Lord after the death of the person. The refusals to even contemplate the issues is a sign of rejection of the notions, in other words, disbelief. I can read your posts and come to that conclusion.
Now that I have salvation, yes.
Before that, not a chance.
Doesn’t answer my question though. Why do you enjoy accusing and implying that we use our salvation as a license to sin?
Why yell at me for what MHGinTN said?
Why yell at him, for that matter?
Considering the kind of insults that you’ve thrown at me since we’ve known each other, I’m surprised that you’re not ashamed of yourself instead.
Why do you enjoy accusing and implying that we use our salvation as a license to sin?
Ravi
Carried over from post 834:
Do you believe God abides in the born again spirit?
Born again in the Spirit
Born again of the Spirit
NOT “a” born again spirit.
Born again humans are not spirits. The Holy Spirit resides in us. We are born OF THE SPIRIT.
John 3:6That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
Which two?
Does rejection REALLY equal disbelief in your mind?
He abides in the spirit of the born agains (1 John 3:9).
Well; if you think that 'seed' (sperma) equals the Holy Spirit, but a better match is made here: (John 14:16–17)
Since The Holy Spirit never leaves someone once he takes up abiding in their spirit that human redeemed spirit does not sleep in the dust because it is with The Lord after the death of the person.
Bad logic.
It is WITH the believer while he lives; awake or ASLEEP.
Why can't it still be with him as he sleeps in the dust, awaiting that trumpet sound?
David, a 'man after GOD's own heart' was a 'believer' yet he sinned.
He was remorseful and wrote:
He did NOT write, "retore your salvation to me", but...
...restore the joy of your salvation to me...
What about Judy, my next door neighbor?
Can a sexual indulgence against her be bought off by an indulgence to the church?
| 1471 The doctrine and practice of indulgences in the Church are closely linked to the effects of the sacrament of Penance. What is an indulgence? "An indulgence is a remission before God of the temporal punishment due to sins whose guilt has already been forgiven, which the faithful Christian who is duly disposed gains under certain prescribed conditions through the action of the Church which, as the minister of redemption, dispenses and applies with authority the treasury of the satisfactions of Christ and the saints." "An indulgence is partial or plenary according as it removes either part or all of the temporal punishment due to sin." The faithful can gain indulgences for themselves or apply them to the dead. |
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You might benefit from a study of the work of the Holy Spirit, in the Old Covenant relationship with man and the in the new covenant with man.
I might?
Why is that?
Got the quotation right this time, I see!
LOL, read your history my man.
What I wrote is 100% preaching by Catholic indulgence sellers. And said preaching was endorsed by the church itself.
Don’t blame me for quoting historical fact at you!
Unless, of course, you’re willing to admit that Roman Catholicism can be wrong.
Later
Later
Unproven. I could claim that YOU, Phil, have committed mass murder, but that doesn’t make it true.
Also, your obsession with the man is disturbing.
Also, that’s not license to sin.
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