Posted on 11/02/2019 6:58:01 PM PDT by SeekAndFind
A lot of evangelicals are swimming these days. They’re slipping on their metaphorical fins and masks and churning their way across bodies of water to emerge on the other shore as members of a different faith community. Those that move from evangelicalism to Roman Catholicism are said to swim the Tiber; those that become Orthodox swim the Bosporus.
Reasons for their aquatic activities vary. Some like the art and architecture associated with the ancient faiths. Some like the ceremonial aspects–the liturgies, the veneration of icons, the Eucharist. Some like the history that oozes from Catholicism and Orthodoxy, a history that travels through great saints of yesteryear–through Augustine, Ambrose, Chrysostom, and Gregory of Nazianzus–but goes largely forgotten in contemporary evangelicalism.
Church-switching among evangelicals has always been popular. It’s become even more so now that so much of the conservative Protestant world has fled so purposely from symbolic architecture and time-honored aesthetics, and has chosen to worship in big boxy rooms with giant worship screens, all-enveloping sound systems, and Chris Tomlin-wannabes singing from the stage. Catholicism and Orthodoxy certainly offer something different from what goes on in that environment.
But evangelicals interested in “swimming” to a different tradition should consider traversing a body of water much closer to home: the Mississippi River, on which is located St. Louis, Missouri, and the headquarters of the premier conservative Lutheran church body in America, the Lutheran Church-Missouri Synod.
Evangelicals who value tradition and history may not know that in conservative Lutheranism they will find the same critical elements of Christianity for which the Roman Catholic and Orthodox churches are known. Retaining membership in the true church, celebrating baptism and the Lord’s Supper in all their power, singing the historic liturgy–the very things many evangelicals seek when they turn to the east–are all found in conservative Lutheranism.
First, though, a word about the idea that in adopting the new faith, evangelicals move from an inferior entity to the real thing. Converts to Roman Catholicism frequently cite their desire to return to “original” Christianity, the “mother” church, which they equate with Catholicism. The Church of Rome asserts that if one wishes to most correctly follow Christ’s intention for the church, one joins the Roman Church–this is the form of church Jesus wanted his followers to inhabit. It is and has been the “true” church from the Council of Jerusalem described in Acts 15 to Vatican II, from Peter to Paul VI, and on to the current pope, Francis. Luther and the other Reformers broke away and started their own apostate institutions. That’s the view from the Vatican.
But Jesus does not lay out a proper form for his church. A true church, as limned in the New Testament, is one whose ministers teach the gospel purely and administer baptism and the Lord’s Supper rightly, according to Christ’s institution and mandate. That’s all. If your church does that–and the Missouri Synod hangs its hat on this directive–you belong to the true church.
Martin Luther, a monk in the Catholic Church of the fifteenth century and an official in what was considered the holy, apostolic church, did not break away from that church but renewed it to its previous position. He reversed the heresies of the previous couple of centuries and brought the one holy church back in line. Rome chose not to heed the rediscovery of the biblical gospel.
Also appealing to evangelicals making the move east are the ceremonies of Catholicism and Orthodoxy. Lutheranism is sacramental as well; it narrowed the Catholic seven sacraments to two–the two instituted in Scripture, which are baptism and the Eucharist–but left intact their power to remove sins. Luther did not allow them to be interpreted representationally, as others in the Reform did. Thus, they are termed “means of grace”: spiritual vehicles whereby sins are forgiven. Like Catholics and Orthodox believers, we hold to the real presence in the Lord’s Supper, that Christ is physically present in the elements, and to the sacramental power of this means of grace–our sins are actually forgiven in the eating and drinking.
Other rituals were either retained or abandoned on the basis of Scripture. One such is the historic liturgy. You probably won’t find full-on smells and bells in conservative Lutheran churches, but our pastors wear robes and there’s plenty of stand-up-sit-down in our services. Luther kept the historic liturgy in his renewal of the church, both because it did not run counter to Scripture and because the people were accustomed to it, enriched by it, and comforted by it. It was their vehicle for accessing the gospel.
The hymnals used by conservative Lutheran churches feature this centuries-old historic liturgy, much of which harks back to the biblical witness. They also contain the millennia-old ecumenical creeds, one of which is confessed every Sunday, and the books are organized around the liturgical calendar–from Advent to Pentecost–which rehearses, yearly, the entire history of salvation.
Historically, Lutheranism has contributed significantly to the beautiful and meaningful music that makes up those hymnals. Luther himself wrote dozens of hymns; the most famous Lutheran hymn writer, Paul Gerhardt, is among the all-time great sacred poets. His hymns, as well as the best of Charles Wesley, Isaac Watts, Catherine Winkworth, among many others, highlight our worship. Many of the faith’s most inspirational and meaningful hymns were spawned by the Reformation, which period of church history is not exactly favored by Rome and Constantinople.
From Luther onward, Lutherans have boasted a history of congregational singing. In Roman Catholic churches, the hymnals stay in the pew racks while a cantor at a microphone dominates the sound. Orthodox parishioners chant and sing the liturgy, but don’t sing too many hymns. Congregational singing is such an uplifting part of the faith, and zesty singing by the people is an integral part of Lutheran worship.
When you swim the Tiber, you are not vacating an inadequate, imperfect form of Christianity for the true, historic version instituted by Christ himself. You are not switching teams; you are, at best, merely switching positions on the same team or, at worst, trading a biblical iteration of church for a version that lifts the opinion of human beings above the clear word of Scripture.
Conservative Lutheranism retains the Bible as the sole religious authority. Certainly, the Bible plays a role in Catholicism and Orthodoxy, but it isn’t the supreme authority in doctrine and practice. When the Bible is forced off center stage, bowing to tradition or reason, the door is opened to theological error. The history of the Church of Rome is replete with examples of this.
Conservative Lutherans also believe Scripture to be sufficient for salvation. Simple, clear faith need not be augmented by rituals (fasting, or even attending church) and beliefs (intercession of saints, the immaculate conception of Mary, etc.) not required by the Bible. We also hold that Scripture is clear enough that all Christians can read it and benefit from it; we need not “ask Father” to interpret every little thing.
Before evangelicals jump into the Tiber or the Bosporus in their quest for true Christian faith, they might want to consider swimming the Mississippi. It’s muddy, true, but it’s closer to home, in more ways than one.
Thank God, for the church which the Lord promised to overcome the gates of Hell was not one organic organization outside of which no believers were to be found, but the one true church was and is the body of Christ that the Spirit baptizes every believer into, (1Co. 12:13) and to which He is married, (Eph. 5:25)
For it uniquely only and always consists 100% of true believers, while organic fellowships in which they express their faith inevitably become admixtures of wheat and tares, with Catholicism and liberal Protestantism being mostly the latter.
Some LCMS hymns from the “The Lutheran Hymnal” sound like unenthusiastic funeral dirges. The new hymnal is just completely disappointing.
there is a lot here I do not have time to delve into this am. We do not have priests we have pastors. While we leave the consecration of communion to ordained clergy as a matter of good order, there is nothing that prevents any believer from acting in this fashion. We believe in the priesthood of all believers and being ordained clergy does not infer any special magical powers.
as to the rest of your post I will answer as I have time but this is not a salvific issue. I wish you a blessed day.
HMMMmmm…
Where did I miss THIS fact??
1 Corinthians 1:17
For Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the gospel--not with wisdom and eloquence, lest the cross of Christ be emptied of its power.
Dang; Paul!
Do you wanna SAVE souls or NOT??
About the same as with, "You brood of vipers!"
You see arrested Reformation. but I would caution you not to go so far the other way as to throw the baby out with the bath water. Knee jerk rejection of everything Rome believed is as bad as blindly following them. Yes there are places Luther did not get far enough from Rome,mostly in remaining amillenial. But I can excuse his lack of end time exposition as he was fighting for his life for daring to preach salvation by grace.
Just before these words; in the same chapter; a direct question is asked:
John 6:25-40
25 When they found him on the other side of the lake, they asked him, “Rabbi, when did you get here?”
26 Jesus answered, “Very truly I tell you, you are looking for me, not because you saw the signs I performed but because you ate the loaves and had your fill. 27 Do not work for food that spoils, but for food that endures to eternal life, which the Son of Man will give you. For on him God the Father has placed his seal of approval.”
28 Then they asked him, “What must we do to do the works God requires?”
29 Jesus answered, “The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent.”
30 So they asked him, “What sign then will you give that we may see it and believe you? What will you do? 31 Our ancestors ate the manna in the wilderness; as it is written: ‘He gave them bread from heaven to eat.’[c]”
32 Jesus said to them, “Very truly I tell you, it is not Moses who has given you the bread from heaven, but it is my Father who gives you the true bread from heaven. 33 For the bread of God is the bread that comes down from heaven and gives life to the world.”
34 “Sir,” they said, “always give us this bread.”
35 Then Jesus declared, “I am the bread of life. Whoever comes to me will never go hungry, and whoever believes in me will never be thirsty. 36 But as I told you, you have seen me and still you do not believe. 37 All those the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never drive away. 38 For I have come down from heaven not to do my will but to do the will of him who sent me. 39 And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all those he has given me, but raise them up at the last day. 40 For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day.”
These words were spoke at Christ’s last few intimate moments with His disciples knowing what He was about to accomplish This is a very different setting than His parables and sparring with the Pharisees. I do not see any place for other than plain meaning lovingly spoken but ymmv.
Lutherans are not saved by baptism. They are saved by the Blood of Christ atoning for their sin like every other Christian. Baptism is an actor faith and obedience not salvation .
I’m Jewish by blood, but was raised Lutheran, Missouri Synod. I prefer the Wisconsin Synod, though, and joined that church as an adult. My mother joined the Methodists when she re-married. They goof around in church too much for my tastes. I can’t stand all the glad-handing. Just tell me I’m a sinner and make me feel bad about it so I shape up...for the week at least, LOL!
Still looking for a new Church Home. It’s taking a while as I live in the middle of nowhere, now. Also, since I’m in a small farming community, whichever church I join, I will be the youngest member at 60, so I’ll be doing all of the grunt work, LOL! ;)
Swim the Mississippi: Why Conservative Lutheranism is the Faith Tradition Many Evangelicals Seek
Issues, Etc., a Lutheran daily news and discussion program/podcast, talked to him the other day: 3042. The Appeal of Lutheranism to Evangelicals – Tom Raabe, 10/31/19
"Meh." I thought he slipped in unexamined assumptions that the really ought to be examined. I did not find his reasons compelling.
Nothing bizarre about it...totally accurate. JESUS only writings on this earth were some fingermarks in dirt. THE APOSTLES wrote down the structures you refer to, after having received them ORALLY (i.e. "tradition") from Christ before (and after) his Resurrection but before his Ascension (and, of course, by inspiration after his Ascension).
That is correct, and which I myself argue. Just because Catholicism abuses everything from Scripture to Christian art to a central magisterium as per Acts 15 (which I had just affirmed on another thread should be the idea but which idea Rome poisoned) is not a valid reason to necessarily reject such. Evangelicals have been foremost defenders of Scriptural Truths which Catholicism retained.
Yes there are places Luther did not get far enough from Rome,mostly in remaining amillenial. But I can excuse his lack of end time exposition as he was fighting for his life for daring to preach salvation by grace.
Luther did not intend to be a leader and chief theologian, and times and freedoms was not as today, and one must walk in the light one has and so more will be given.
All scripture is God breathed.
> I did not find his reasons compelling.
... other than refuting false doctrine ...
> Baptism is an actor faith and obedience
As was circumcision ... no wait, that happened (normally, not always!!) at infancy.
Not like infant baptism is an old practice going back to the beginning of Christianity or anything, is it?
Say, point me to your alternate early church history ok?
But hold on to your rationalism and have a nice day!
Sure it is. But Scripture is not the ONLY thing "God breathed". The Protestant "vision" is simply grossly too limited. God's "writings" totally surround us all the time. The biggest is "the Universe". "Sola scriptura" is simply ludicrous on its face when viewed against the bigger picture. "All that is True is of God". I don't know who said it, but whoever it was, was right.
Please join my Interfaith Christian Coalition Against Ecumenism. Thank you.
The problem with your view is that when something you think is true contradicts scripture, you are willing to abandon scripture.
Some folks see metaphor
others don’t
We’ve got a cannibalism-torture/’Native American’ thread going on FR right now.
No one has yet brought up the fact the Jesus’ body was not chopped up and served to the somewhat shaky ‘believers’.
Heck; Doubting Thomas wasn’t even instructed to lick his fingers for the desired effectiveness of Jessus’ blood.
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