Posted on 11/02/2019 8:30:32 AM PDT by Antoninus
The idea of Purgatory as an intermediary state between Heaven and Hell is one of the most misunderstood and occasionally ridiculed aspects of Catholic doctrine. Though it is common for Protestants and even some Catholics to assume that Purgatory has no foundation in Sacred Scripture, that claim is actually false. The need for Purgatory developed from a close reading of Scripture by the Fathers of the Church, and the concept has a provenance stretching back to the earliest days of the Church. Furthermore, it has come to my attention recently that the Orthodox have a similar understanding of the need for purification before entering Heaven, even if their understanding of that purgation is not the same as that of the Catholic Church.
See Part II of this post here.
One of the earliest accounts of a Purgatory-like place comes from an unexpected source, indeed one of the Mothers of the Church, rather than one of the Fathers. Dating from about AD 203, the authentic account of the Passion of Saint Perpetua details a poignant vision which Perpetua experienced immediately prior to her martyrdom. The words of this early Christian martyr, as written in Latin in her prison diary, speak for themselves:
After a few days, while we were all praying, on a sudden, in the middle of our prayer, there came to me a word, and I named Dinocrates. And I was amazed that that name had never come into my mind until then, and I was grieved as I remembered his misfortune. And I felt myself immediately to be worthy, and to be called on to ask on his behalf. And for him I began earnestly to make supplication, and to cry with groaning to the Lord.Without delay, on that very night, this was shown to me in a vision. I saw Dinocrates going out from a gloomy place, where also there were several others, and he was parched and very thirsty, with a filthy countenance and pallid color, and the wound on his face which he had when he died. This Dinocrates had been my brother after the flesh, seven years of age who died miserably with disease—his face being so eaten out with cancer, that his death caused repugnance to all men. For him I had made my prayer, and between him and me there was a large interval, so that neither of us could approach to the other. And moreover, in the same place where Dinocrates was, there was a pool full of water, having its brink higher than was the stature of the boy, and Dinocrates raised himself up as if to drink. And I was grieved that, although that pool held water, still, on account of the height to its brink, he could not drink. And I was aroused, and knew that my brother was in suffering. But I trusted that my prayers would bring help to his suffering; and I prayed for him every day until we passed over into the prison of the camp, for we were to fight in the camp-show. Then was the birthday of Geta Cæsar, and I made my prayer for my brother day and night, groaning and weeping that he might be granted to me.
Then, on the day on which we remained in fetters, this was shown to me. I saw that that place which I had formerly observed to be in gloom was now bright, and Dinocrates, with a clean body well clad, was finding refreshment. And where there had been a wound, I saw a scar, and that pool which I had before seen, I saw now with its margin lowered even to the boy's navel. And one drew water from the pool incessantly, and upon its brink was a goblet filled with water. And Dinocrates drew near and began to drink from it, and the goblet did not fail. And when he was satisfied, he went away from the water to play joyously, after the manner of children, and I awoke. Then I understood that he was translated from the place of punishment.
While mysterious and certainly not covering all of the Catholic Church's criteria for Purgatory, Perpetua's vision seems to confirm the belief that the souls of the dead benefit from the prayers of the living, particularly those about to endure martyrdom for the sake of Christ.
Update: September 4, 2018:
The Passion of Saints Perpetua and Felicitas is related in full in I Am a Christian: Authentic Accounts of Christian Martyrdom and Persecution from the Ancient Sources. This book is a collection of the best ancient sources on the persecution of early Christians and well worth having if you are interested in this topic.
Some additional sources on the origin of Purgatory, including a large excerpt from Pope Saint Gregory the Great who formalized much of what we believe about Purgatory today, will be included in a subsequent post.
The Catholic mind twisted the passage in Matthew to read the way the Romish agenda fits. The passage says that there is a sin that will not be forgiven (against The Holy Spirit) in this world or the world to come. The Romish mind sees an escape clause there, as if there will be sins forgiven in the world to come. BUT the Romish mind is incapable of discerning that ‘world to come’, since Jesus spoke during the offering of The Kingdom, not addressing the world of the Grace of God in Christ offered during the ‘world to come’ Church / Ekklesia Age.
“You apparently believe a person (Jew or Gentile) can be born again then unborn themselves and be damned. The writer of Hebrews is trying to illustrate why that cannot be done...”
The last first: The writer of Hebrews explicitly says it can and HAD been done. “They were once in God’s light; they tasted heaven’s gift and received their share of the Holy Spirit...And then they abandoned their faith!” He did no pose a hypothetical. He said it HAD happened.
As to the first: Can someone who has been born commit suicide? Yes.
We are often warned against falling away. Why is that?
“19 But you will say, “Yes, but the branches were broken off to make room for me.” 20 That is true. They were broken off because they did not believe, while you remain in place because you do believe. But do not be proud of it; instead, be afraid. 21 God did not spare the Jews, who are like natural branches; do you think he will spare you? 22 Here we see how kind and how severe God is. He is severe toward those who have fallen, but kind to you—if you continue in his kindness. But if you do not, you too will be broken off. 23 And if the Jews abandon their unbelief, they will be put back in the place where they were; for God is able to do that. “ - Romans 11
“Thou standest by faith - The continuance of these mercies to you depends on your fidelity. If you are faithful, they will be preserved; if, like the Jews, you become unbelieving and unfruitful, like them you will be also rejected. This fact should repress boasting, and excite to anxiety and caution.
Be not high-minded - Do not be elated in the conception of your privileges, so as to produce vain self-confidence and boasting.
But fear - This fear stands opposed to the spirit of boasting and self-confidence, against which he was exhorting them. It does not mean terror or horror, but it denotes humility, watchfulness, and solicitude to abide in the faith. Do not be haughty and high-minded against the Jew, who has been cast off, but “demean yourself as a humble believer, and one who has need to be continually on his guard, and to fear lest he may fall through unbelief, and be cast off.” (Stuart.) We may here learn,
(1)That there is danger lest those who are raised to eminent privileges should become unduly exalted in their own estimation, and despise others.
(2)the tendency of faith is to promote humility and a sense of our dependence on God.
(3)the system of salvation by faith produces that solicitude, and careful guarding, and watchfulness, which is necessary to preserve us from apostasy and ruin.”
https://www.studylight.org/commentaries/bnb/romans-11.html
“Verse 20
This is true. This means: “There is some truth in this line of reasoning.” But these branches were not just broken off to make room for the Gentiles. Because they did not believe. What Paul is saying here, helps to explain what he said in Romans 9:14-18. It was their own unbelief which caused them to be broken off. Because you believe. It is faith which joins the Gentile to the tree. Instead, be afraid. This is contrasted with “being proud of yourself.” A religion based on faith (Romans 3:27) does not permit boasting and being proud. See also Ephesians 2:8-10. Unbelief would also break them off!
Verse 21
God did not spare the Jews. If God broke off the natural branches because of their disbelief, he will break off the Gentile branches who cease to believe.”
https://www.studylight.org/commentaries/ice/romans-11.html
Consider the Jews. They were “God’s Chosen People”. The Elect. Collectively. Corporate election. But even in the Old Testament, it was faith that truly made individuals whole. Abraham BELIEVED. God will restore the Jews, at the end, some. But if he cast aside the natural branches who didn’t believe, what will he do to grafted on branches that turn aside?
“They were broken off because they did not believe, while you remain in place because you do believe. But do not be proud of it; instead, be afraid. God did not spare the Jews, who are like natural branches; do you think he will spare you?”
I see no room for debate. You can write as much as you want about your theories, but all must be judged by the word of God. And God’s word is plainly spoken. A teen can read it and understand.
How do I define eternal life? It is life with God, unending. But eternal life isn’t granted to everyone, but to everyone who BELIEVES. And if they stop believing? Won’t be a problem in heaven, but here on earth it is. Because we are warned to persist in believing. And told if we stop believing, we will be cut off. Jesus is the vine. We are the branches. Connected to the vine, we have everything. Apart from the vine, nothing. And “[God] is severe toward those who have fallen, but kind to you—if you continue in his kindness. But if you do not, you too will be broken off.”
“The Spirit says clearly that some people will abandon the faith in later times; they will obey lying spirits and follow the teachings of demons.” - 1 Tim 4
“5 “I am the vine, and you are the branches. Those who remain in me, and I in them, will bear much fruit; for you can do nothing without me. 6 Those who do not remain in me are thrown out like a branch and dry up; such branches are gathered up and thrown into the fire, where they are burned.” - John 15
“Be on your guard, then, so that you will not be led away by the errors of lawless people and fall from your safe position. 18 But continue to grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.” - 2 Peter 3
“My friends, be careful that none of you have a heart so evil and unbelieving that you will turn away from the living God. 13 Instead, in order that none of you be deceived by sin and become stubborn, you must help one another every day, as long as the word “Today” in the scripture applies to us. 14 For we are all partners with Christ if we hold firmly to the end the confidence we had at the beginning.” - Hebrews 3 - “if we hold firmly to the end”!
“9 “Then you will be arrested and handed over to be punished and be put to death. Everyone will hate you because of me. 10 Many will give up their faith at that time; they will betray one another and hate one another... 13 But whoever holds out to the end will be saved.” - Matt 24
“If people have escaped from the corrupting forces of the world through their knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, and then are again caught and conquered by them, such people are in worse condition at the end than they were at the beginning. 21 It would have been much better for them never to have known the way of righteousness than to know it and then turn away from the sacred command that was given them. 22 What happened to them shows that the proverbs are true: “A dog goes back to what it has vomited” and “A pig that has been washed goes back to roll in the mud.” - 2 Peter 2
There are three rules to hermeneutics: context context context.
The proper context considers by whom a passage is uttered, to whom a passage is directed, in what time frame it is applied, and to what purpose God's Spirit applies that passage.
You have adeptly strung together passages to support your necessity to keep that which ONLY God has access to. That is works based salvation by a more devious path. I reject that teaching.
I obeyed those rules, such as when you cited 2 Tim 2 out of context....
I don’t recall citing 2 Timothy 2. Could you show me?
That, fella, is a totally false translation an interpretration. The writer said "IF they shall fall away," not that anyone HAD fallen away.
Your comment, as it is seen in the face of being shown otherwise in this thread, is apparently deliberate in making conclusions that are NOT present in scripture and therefore misleading.
It sems that you don't realize or won't admit that the selected verses (Heb. 6:4-6)apply to those Hebrews who had been born under the law.
"For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame."More specifically, they apply to the twelve chosen disciples that (1) walked with and were taught by Jesus, God in the flesh upon Whom the Holy Ghost rested. He not only was the Word Personified, but (2) He proclaimed the Word to them and others. These disciples, including Judas, (3) both saw and personally exercised the powers of Christ. They, like Saul or David, (4) were partakers of the Holy Ghost ON them temporarily (but not WITHIN them permanently until Pentecost).
They were of the generation that bridged the time The Old Covenant was fulfilled and put away forever, and the time the New Covenant was afterwards introduced to them. That is one peculiar generation, no longer to be repeated.
Judas Iscariot's faith in and allegiance to Jesus failed, and though he regretted his betrayal, could not repent from it. Like the Saul of old, the Holy Spirit rested on him for a while, but then was taken away and replaced by the Devil entering and possessing him when his faith failed.
On the other hand, Simon bar Jonah's faith almost completely failed, but Jesus had prayed for it not to fail, and so it didn't, though he denied association with Jesus six times. We see that at the moment he was still following Jesus to see what happened, when the denials occurred. Then Jesus looked back up the hall at him while waiting for admittance to Caiaphas's quarters, and caught red-handed, Peter wept, and that bitterly.
But he continued in staying with the other ten, until the day of Pentecost. On that day, Simon was reborn in the Spirit, and never showed failure of his commitment after that. It was Jesus faithfully sustained Simon, both before Pentecost and after.
The verses you are quoting only applied to the Hebrews of the time that it was written for.
Yet today, there exist seekers whose enthusiasm has been stirred up enough to have professed a belief in Jesus, but who have not totally committed themselves to Him, and hence are not truly saved. But it is a case where only God can judge, although spiritually mature fellow-members of the assembly might have an inkling of a person's lack of full commitment, even though the person has gotten baptized and is participating in the assembly ministry.
However, that person could still be convicted of his/her total depravity and unworthiness, but then sorrowfully repent, acknowledge to God and others his worthlessness, and receive from God alone by unreserved faith alone, the gift of salvation and new birth. Hebrews 6:4-6 does NOT apply to that person. However, Hebrews 3:12-19 does apply to that person of questionable behavior, but not to the ones who have already been born again even though they are not yet very mature spiritually.
Does the last paragraph of your Post #382 apply to yourself? If so, you need to read this very carefully, and please stop making claims that are not truthful.
pinging you to #387; sorry I forgot you
Are you confusing Matthew 10:33?
“The writer said “IF they shall fall away,” not that anyone HAD fallen away. “
Yeah, like here: “And then they abandoned their faith!”
“It sems that you don’t realize or won’t admit that the selected verses (Heb. 6:4-6)apply to those Hebrews...”
Because they are not limited to only Jews. If you are correct, I could cut Hebrews out of my Bible. I don’t admit it and neither has any Bible commentator I have seen - because it isn’t true.
“More specifically, they apply to the twelve chosen disciples...”
Oh golly. NOW it applies to the 12 disciples! Well, again, I along with every printed commentary I can find disagrees with you.
“The verses you are quoting only applied to the Hebrews of the time that it was written for.”
Then they would not be in scripture. No reason for them then.
“Does the last paragraph of your Post #382 apply to yourself? If so, you need to read this very carefully, and please stop making claims that are not truthful.”
No, but your rudeness and arrogance suggest some heart issues. I’ve not made claims that are untruthful. I may or may NOT be in ERROR, but I’m citing scripture - in context. It seems pretty obvious:
“They were once in God’s light; they tasted heaven’s gift and received their share of the Holy Spirit...And then they abandoned their faith!”
Oh, but wait! You say those apply to the 12 Apostles and are not meant for us. Whateeveeeer!
Please try making your point with SCRIPTURE, not with your personal opinions. I don’t care about your opinions. I doubt anyone else on FR does either. The scripture is filled with insistence that we must persevere. Keep believing. Not abandon the faith. And I’ve already quoted some of them. Once saved, always saved doesn’t account for those.
OK, please state the version and publisher of the Bible from which you are claiming contains these very words, without any changes. I gave you the direct copy/paste passage as given in the King James Authorized Version. Your words are contrary to the King James translation.
The reliability of what you have to say always hangs in the balance. Stop blustering and step up to the plate. Start acting like a grown-up.
You are presenting the fiction that it is not by Grace but it has to have your efforts to keep eternal life once IMPUTED, as if God cannot keep you in His hands unless you do the keeping. Do you not see that? Are you unable to see that what you are proposing is in fact works based salvation because once saved God depends on you to keep what you could not do for yourself and which you cannot touch since you are no longer your own but were BOUGHT with a price and it is therefore GOD Who is in you if you have been born from above? Did you miss the part where Paul said the born again cannot sin for His seed in you abides?
Which translation is this?
Of courese, of course it does exactly! And you have by yourself figured that out! My commendation.
Well, again, I along with every printed commentary I can find disagrees with you.
OK, find one or two that does, and bring it to the table. Perhaps your finder antenna is broken? Otherwise, no one is going to listen to you.
Remember, Peter was one of the Jews from whom the Old Covenant was removed when it was fulfilled by Jesus at the Cross, and to whom the New Covenant was presented for their continuing access to God. Anyone not willing to give up the now-dead Old one and accept Jesus as God and Master, rejecting Him, had no other way to be saved, reborn spiritually, and receive God's favor as His people. The old way of repenting from one's sins and blood-letting of bulls and goats and doves could no longer achieve atonement and forgiveness. And that's what Hebrews 6:4-6 is all about.
As I have always understood it, things changed at the appearing and work of John the Baptist...There wasn't an immediate switcheroo...As you say belief became a requirement...Water baptism became a requirement...Repentance was necessary...Animal sacrifices and rituals were not in effect...The priesthood became null and void...Good works were still a requirement for justification...
Acts ct_26:20 But shewed first unto them of Damascus, and at Jerusalem, and throughout all the coasts of Judaea, and then to the Gentiles, that they should repent and turn to God, and do works meet for repentance.
There was a transition period from the Cross to the Book of Romans where the Gentile church and faith + nothing = salvation was revealed to the apostle Paul in Romans 3...
It was revealed to Peter in the books of Acts that nothing was any longer unclean...It was revealed that salvation would become available to the Gentiles...Baptism went from physical to spiritual...
Good News Translation.
From the New American Standard:
“For in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit, 5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6 and then have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame.”
“and then have fallen away”
Young’s Literal Translation:
” for [it is] impossible for those once enlightened, having tasted also of the heavenly gift, and partakers having became of the Holy Spirit, 5 and did taste the good saying of God, the powers also of the coming age, 6 and having fallen away, again to renew [them] to reformation, having crucified again to themselves the Son of God, and exposed to public shame.”
From the Amplified Bible:
“For it is impossible [to restore and bring again to repentance] those who have been once for all enlightened, who have consciously tasted the heavenly gift and have become sharers of the Holy Spirit,
5 And have felt how good the Word of God is and the mighty powers of the age and world to come,
6 If they then deviate from the faith and turn away from their allegiance—[it is impossible] to bring them back to repentance, for (because, while, as long as) they nail upon the cross the Son of God afresh [as far as they are concerned] and are holding [Him] up to contempt and shame and public disgrace.”
English Standard Version:
“4 For it is impossible, in the case of those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, and have shared in the Holy Spirit, 5 and have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6 and then have fallen away, to restore them again to repentance”
The problem, imardmd1, isn’t the translation. It is your theology doesn’t match the text!
“Your words are contrary to the King James translation.” - imardmd1
So what? The KJV is an OK translation but no more. From Vincent’s Word Studies in the New Testament:
“If they shall fall away (GREEK) Lit. and having fallen away.
From The Bible Knowledge Commentary:
“But the translation does not do full justice to the original language, where there is no hint of a conditional element.The Greek word parapesontas is in fact a part of the construction to which the preceding descriptive phrases belong. A more accurate translation would be: “It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted...who have shared...who have tasted...and who have fallen away, to be brought back to repentance.” Far from treating the question in any hypothetical way, the writer’s language sounds as if he knew of such cases.”
The text has no problem speaking for itself. Nor is it alone.
“Take care, brethren, that there not be in any one of you an evil, unbelieving heart that falls away from the living God. 13 But encourage one another day after day, as long as it is still called “Today,” so that none of you will be hardened by the deceitfulness of sin. 14 For we have become partakers of Christ, if we hold fast the beginning of our assurance firm until the end...” - Hebrews 3
This is NOT salvation by works. We don’t work or earn SQUAT. All we do is not actively REJECT the Christ who has saved us!
I’m done with this thread. I see no value in repeating, ad nauseum, the same text again and again. Folks can read it and understand easily. Or not. It is not hard, except it may require some to give up cherished beliefs.
IF you’re asserting a person can lose their salvation based on this passage then you have to admit once it’s lost....it’s lost for good.
Upon what passages in scripture does your pope Gregory create the purgatory proposal? You say you are taking his interpretation, so which Bible passages is he interpreting?
Popping some popcorn.
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