Posted on 11/02/2019 8:30:32 AM PDT by Antoninus
Yes. I have.
Something to read: https://jesusisajew.org/YESHUA.php
Coincidentally, I was just reading about Purgatory in this message of the day: Waiting Is Sleeping.
Conceptually, that there is a Purgatory makes sense to me as an observer of life, as well as from a scientific point of view.
For example, if you have a beaker containing a liquid that’s half water and half oil, there will be a separation layer between them that’s neither oil nor water.
The same is true for concepts like north and south and the equator or day and night and twilight. It ain’t one thing or the other. It’s the “t’ain’t”.
In a way, I see Purgatory as being a similar thing. It’s a place for souls that are forgiven, so they aren’t destined for Hell, but those souls are still not clean enough to enter Heaven.
My guess is they are those whose sins were forgiven, but who then failed to go and sin no more, and then failed to repent and be forgiven for those new sins.
Thus the soul is forgiven, but now stained with new sins committed since being forgiven and not quite clean enough to cross the threshold.
Obviously, I really don’t know. I’m just trying to understand things using what little mental tools I have to comprehend a spiritual mystery.
Thanks again for the help!
Okay, so, this diary that does NOT match Catholic Putgatory supposedly supports Purgatory.
But multiple church fathers saying outright that we are saved through faith alone doesn’t support sola fide.
Riiiight.
Apostles certainly did...
1Jn 5:7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.
And Jesus certainly did...
Mat 28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
But plenty of Church Fathers and early Christian martyrs did. Is their witness worthless?
YES, if it doesn't line up with scripture...
I think not. It is certainly worth more than the made-up theology of the "johnny-come-latelys" of the last 500 years.
Believing the bible is not making up theology...
There is one example of a person being in Hell in the scriptures...There is one example of a person being in Paradise in the scriptures...Paradise was connected to hell until Jesus was resurrected...At that time, the 'gates of hell' (Paradise) were ripped open never to prevail against God's people again...
No one gets out of hell and Paradise no longer exist down there...There is no purgatory...
Someone's visit with a ghost or a bad dream (nightmare) does not take the place of scripture...Who knows if this person even ever existed???
Sheol, aka the place of the dead.
Unlike some people I can name on this thread, I actually read the church fathers.
Reality is that it’s Roman Catholicism that’s a “Johnny come lately” and the church fathers agree far more with the Reformers.
Our perception of time is not the same as God’s.
The Lord transcends ‘before and after.’
So those who believed in God’s promises upon death, even before Christ according to our views, had the same salvation in Christ as we who live after.
IMO, purgatory is a theological invention, thinly-based on few misinterpreted scriptures, like other Roman Catholic doctrines. Would God condemn someone to hell for missing a Sunday mass? Nowhere in the NT does it say on what temporal basis should the saints gather together. Paul says do not forsake gathering together, but how often, he does not say.
I think Matthew 15:9 is relevant here, where Jesus quotes Isaiah: “in vain do they worship me, teaching as doctrines the commandments of men.”
All these discussions likely reduce to and are rooted in questions about the role of tradition. Is is Sola Scriptura or the Scriptures plus Tradition? Its hard to get beyond this point.
As I was taught so many years ago : In Purgatory there is Hope - because once the punishments for life’s crimes/sins are met then there is the path to Heaven. Divine Justice require Just punishment.
Intercession by others’ prayer and invoking Saints (who lived life) to minimize the punishments is part of Catholic Doctrine
“ As I was taught so many years ago : In Purgatory there is Hope - because once the punishments for life’s crimes/sins are met then there is the path to Heaven. Divine Justice require Just punishment.”
Unfortunately, what you just described isn’t in Scripture, and is contrary to the meaning of the atonement which is the Gospel.
Scripture isnt ‘the end all and be all’ to many Christians (particularly about the Old Testament).
It amazes me how so many think that The Wisdom of God can be contained in a single book (it also being a ‘work of man’)...
No one claimed it was.
Scripture contains, as it teaches, all that is needed for salvation and Christian maturity.
It amazes me how so many think that The Wisdom of God can be contained in a single book
I've yet to meet a single person who believes that.
Purgatory was/is/always will be TEMPORARY. Hell is for eternity.
Do you believe in Apostolic Tradition?
And I hope my name is not remember. At the risk of sounding pious, I hope the only name that is exhorted is our Lord Jesus.
among others, the biggest problem with the mythical doctrine of purgatory is it diminishes Christ’s sacrifice for us.
Amen
And here we have the Protestant misunderstanding of redemption. Redemption is not merely the payment of a penalty for our external sinful acts; it is the cleansing of the disordered habits of the soul that cause us to sin. This cleansing is wholly the act of God; the souls in Purgatory are completely passive to God's cleansing action. Protestantism is a return to the external legalism of the Pharisees which our Lord opposed. As for someone having mentioning it, is Jesus good enough:
Then Peter approaching asked him, “Lord, if my brother sins against me, how often must I forgive him? As many as seven times?” Jesus answered, “I say to you, not seven times but seventy-seven times. That is why the kingdom of heaven may be likened to a king who decided to settle accounts with his servants. When he began the accounting, a debtor was brought before him who owed him a huge amount. Since he had no way of paying it back, his master ordered him to be sold, along with his wife, his children, and all his property, in payment of the debt. At that, the servant fell down, did him homage, and said, ‘Be patient with me, and I will pay you back in full.’ Moved with compassion the master of that servant let him go and forgave him the loan. When that servant had left, he found one of his fellow servants who owed him a much smaller amount. He seized him and started to choke him, demanding, ‘Pay back what you owe.’ Falling to his knees, his fellow servant begged him, ‘Be patient with me, and I will pay you back.’ But he refused. Instead, he had him put in prison until he paid back the debt. Now when his fellow servants saw what had happened, they were deeply disturbed, and went to their master and reported the whole affair. His master summoned him and said to him, ‘You wicked servant! I forgave you your entire debt because you begged me to. Should you not have had pity on your fellow servant, as I had pity on you?’ Then in anger his master handed him over to the torturers until he should pay back the whole debt. So will my heavenly Father do to you, unless each of you forgives his brother from his heart.” (Matthew 10:21-35)Asking for forgiveness through faith alone is not enough. Our Lord clearly shows that we must also, by his grace, remove the disorder of the heart that causes us to sin against both God and our neighbors. If this is not accomplished here, then God will finish this operation in Purgatory.
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