Given that Rome's popes and pepes slaughtered dissenters, I'd guess not...
As an example, Waldensians.
Posted on 11/02/2019 8:30:32 AM PDT by Antoninus
The idea of Purgatory as an intermediary state between Heaven and Hell is one of the most misunderstood and occasionally ridiculed aspects of Catholic doctrine. Though it is common for Protestants and even some Catholics to assume that Purgatory has no foundation in Sacred Scripture, that claim is actually false. The need for Purgatory developed from a close reading of Scripture by the Fathers of the Church, and the concept has a provenance stretching back to the earliest days of the Church. Furthermore, it has come to my attention recently that the Orthodox have a similar understanding of the need for purification before entering Heaven, even if their understanding of that purgation is not the same as that of the Catholic Church.
See Part II of this post here.
One of the earliest accounts of a Purgatory-like place comes from an unexpected source, indeed one of the Mothers of the Church, rather than one of the Fathers. Dating from about AD 203, the authentic account of the Passion of Saint Perpetua details a poignant vision which Perpetua experienced immediately prior to her martyrdom. The words of this early Christian martyr, as written in Latin in her prison diary, speak for themselves:
After a few days, while we were all praying, on a sudden, in the middle of our prayer, there came to me a word, and I named Dinocrates. And I was amazed that that name had never come into my mind until then, and I was grieved as I remembered his misfortune. And I felt myself immediately to be worthy, and to be called on to ask on his behalf. And for him I began earnestly to make supplication, and to cry with groaning to the Lord.Without delay, on that very night, this was shown to me in a vision. I saw Dinocrates going out from a gloomy place, where also there were several others, and he was parched and very thirsty, with a filthy countenance and pallid color, and the wound on his face which he had when he died. This Dinocrates had been my brother after the flesh, seven years of age who died miserably with disease—his face being so eaten out with cancer, that his death caused repugnance to all men. For him I had made my prayer, and between him and me there was a large interval, so that neither of us could approach to the other. And moreover, in the same place where Dinocrates was, there was a pool full of water, having its brink higher than was the stature of the boy, and Dinocrates raised himself up as if to drink. And I was grieved that, although that pool held water, still, on account of the height to its brink, he could not drink. And I was aroused, and knew that my brother was in suffering. But I trusted that my prayers would bring help to his suffering; and I prayed for him every day until we passed over into the prison of the camp, for we were to fight in the camp-show. Then was the birthday of Geta Cæsar, and I made my prayer for my brother day and night, groaning and weeping that he might be granted to me.
Then, on the day on which we remained in fetters, this was shown to me. I saw that that place which I had formerly observed to be in gloom was now bright, and Dinocrates, with a clean body well clad, was finding refreshment. And where there had been a wound, I saw a scar, and that pool which I had before seen, I saw now with its margin lowered even to the boy's navel. And one drew water from the pool incessantly, and upon its brink was a goblet filled with water. And Dinocrates drew near and began to drink from it, and the goblet did not fail. And when he was satisfied, he went away from the water to play joyously, after the manner of children, and I awoke. Then I understood that he was translated from the place of punishment.
While mysterious and certainly not covering all of the Catholic Church's criteria for Purgatory, Perpetua's vision seems to confirm the belief that the souls of the dead benefit from the prayers of the living, particularly those about to endure martyrdom for the sake of Christ.
Update: September 4, 2018:
The Passion of Saints Perpetua and Felicitas is related in full in I Am a Christian: Authentic Accounts of Christian Martyrdom and Persecution from the Ancient Sources. This book is a collection of the best ancient sources on the persecution of early Christians and well worth having if you are interested in this topic.
Some additional sources on the origin of Purgatory, including a large excerpt from Pope Saint Gregory the Great who formalized much of what we believe about Purgatory today, will be included in a subsequent post.
Hey bro, when I was a catholic, we never really did any Bible study. We did catechism, but I didn’t really want to be there, so I hardly ever paid attention. Maybe that was a good thing, since I kind of avoided too much catholic indoctrination. That was a good thing. 😁👍
no “readeth”??
Don't feel too bad.
You could have gone through a Roman Catholic seminary and not learned Bible Study.
“Readeth” is the next step, once we are saved and become an ambassador for Christ, teaching reconciliation between God and man. 2 Corinthians 5:14-21
“Readeth”..and how does God tell us HOW to “readeth”? 2 Timothy 2:15. “STUDY to show thyself APPROVED into God; a WORKMAN who needeth NOT to be ASHAMED, RIGHTLY DIVIDING the WORD OF TRUTH.”
I have no doubt that is true.
My dad asked me once if I ever thought about being a priest? I said, no, I had never considered it. What I did NOT say, was that I liked females, and I wanted female companionship, and as a result, I had no desire to be a priest. 👎
They won't do it.
I have the book FOUR WITNESSES, The Early Church in Her Own Words
Clement of Rome, 35 A.D.
Ignatius of Antioch, died in Rome in 110 A.D.
Justin Martyr, 100 A.D.
Irenaeus of Lyons, 130 A.D.
Excommunicated Catholic priest Father Martin Luther didn't live until the end of the fifteenth century (1483-1546). If the Catholic Church had been SO terrible you would have THOUGHT that the Protestant Reformation would have happened sooner.
The Four Witnesses, listed above, told the story of the early Church. It didn't need revision. Jesus doesn't make mistakes.
Personal opinion: I believe that Father Luther would have been appalled and GREATLY saddened at what his dissension caused, that is, THIRTY THOUSAND different Protestant denominations. Jesus preached unity. Where is their unity? THIRTY THOUSAND different Biblical interpretations of God's words and no one to guide them otherwise? It doesn't make much sense because the is no unity there.
"Sola Scriptura" seems what most Protestants believe because excommunicated Catholic priest Father Martin Luther decided to CHANGE the Bible. Apparently God's words weren't good enough for him and he wrote that man is saved by faith alone.
So Protestants who live out their faith THIS way have to be considered faithful. They are doing their best with what they have, changed words in the Bible. That adds to excommunicated Catholic priest Father Martin Luther's sin of heresy. His heresy caused good, God-fearing people to leave the faith that Jesus established 2000 years ago.
JAMES 2: 24: As you can see, any man is justified by his deeds and not by faith alone.
Getting ready for the quotes gainsaying this. :o)
The idea that we can be saved ONLY by faith and therefore can live the way we want just doesn't make ANY sense. People must practice their faith, not just think it.
I thanketh thee.
Given that Rome's popes and pepes slaughtered dissenters, I'd guess not...
As an example, Waldensians.
As an example, Waldensians.
As an example, Waldensians.
As an example, Waldensians.
Yes, this is what the popes and pepes did to those Christians who dared to believe something different.
So, if you can't abide by the Catholic Church whose side were YOU on during the Crusades?
So, if you can't abide by the Catholic Church whose side were YOU on during the Crusades?
“ You mean, you mean, you mean, you CAN’T mean that some popes were BAD?”
No.
I mean that you are defending a religious group that slaughtered dissenters.
You claimed the reformation would’ve happened sooner.
I pointed out why Christians were driven underground - the sinfulness of Catholicism.
That you minimize the hideous sin, while attempting to portray Catholicism as a Christian authority says it all.
Do you justify your gay priesthood also?
Your group’s sexual abuse of children?
Pardon me when I immediately recognize Catholicism as a former branch of Christianity that has fallen.
And don’t believe what you claim.
I have actual quotes from the church fathers where they speak of faith alone.
You have... an evidence-less empty assertion, AND an attempt to mind read me.
Hm.
Thou art so very welcome!
With the principle of polarity, you have a third “thing” in between them, like with oil and water, that’s neither, so what is it?
To me, Heaven and hell are polar opposites, which suggests that there is something in between Heaven and hell that is neither one.
I’ve always thought this would be Purgatory, but I’m just guessing.
For me, Scripture alludes to such a place, as with the maidens whose lamps were without oil and they were locked out.
When I look around at His creation to understand Him better, I see he likes the principle of the hierarchy quite a bit, too.
He has a lot of merit based advice in the Scriptures to His children, too, about seeking their place in Heaven.
Having been a plebe many times in life so far and generally not being one who seeks rank, I am none the less very curious about finding my place in the next life and what is required.
Staying awake and being prepared are two requirements and they are a full time job/joy.
It may be a slight detour from the thread, but I must post it.
What I find most vexing is to try to forgive people who are NOT sorry for what they did to me. It is the act of the will, not emotional, and yet my emotions remain in such turmoil even after I intellectually decide to forgive.
Forgiveness is the fragrance that the violet sheds on the heel that has crushed it.Fwiw, I think “Jesus” is very difficult. It can be tough work being an awake Christian and loving/living it always.
~Mark Twain
I am a sinner and I sin, forgiven or not, but I am working on it.
Satan is a vicious and cruel warrior on the mental/emotional fields of battle, but he can be beaten.
I am becoming more mindful that “the rule” I use to measure/judge/criticize with is used to measure me, too, so I can’t claim ignorance should my time end with me in mid-criticism.
I do see Heaven as being sort of a merit based hierarchy, but His merit system is His and His Judgment is perfect.
Just like taking Malachi3:3 and creating Purgatory out of it.
Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.