The oldest known Marian prayer is from Egypt

Aletelia ^ | April 28, 2017 | Philip Kosloski

[NYer]

The "Sub tuum praesidium" was originally used in an ancient Coptic liturgy

As we pray for the success of Pope Francis’ trip to Egypt this weekend, a perfect prayer to use is the oldest known Marian prayer, which in fact, traces back to the pope’s host country.

The oldest known Marian prayer is found on an ancient Egyptian papyrus dating from around the year 250. Today known in the Church as the Sub tuum praesidium, the prayer is believed to have been part of the Coptic Vespers liturgy during the Christmas season.

Read more: Saint Mark: Father of Coptic Christianity

 

 

The original prayer was written in Greek and according to Roseanne Sullivan, “The prayer is addressed to Our Lady using the Greek word Θεοτόκος, which is an adjectival form of Θεοφόρος (Theotokos, or God-bearer) and is more properly translated as ‘she whose offspring is God.'” This helps to prove that the early Christians were already familiar with the word “Theotokos” well before the Third Ecumenical Council at Ephesus ratified its usage.

Below can be found the original Greek text from the papyrus, along with an English translation as listed on the New Liturgical Movement website:

 

On the papyrus, we can read: .ΠΟ ΕΥCΠΑ ΚΑΤΑΦΕ ΘΕΟΤΟΚΕΤ ΙΚΕCΙΑCΜΗΠΑ ΕΙΔΗCΕΜΠΕΡΙCTAC AΛΛΕΚΚΙΝΔΥΝΟΥ …ΡΥCΑΙΗΜΑC MONH …HEΥΛΟΓ

And an English translation could be: Under your mercy we take refuge, Mother of God! Our prayers, do not despise in necessities, but from the danger deliver us, only pure, only blessed.

 

More commonly the prayer is translated:

Beneath your compassion,
We take refuge, O Mother of God:
do not despise our petitions in time of trouble:
but rescue us from dangers,
only pure, only blessed one.

Several centuries later a Latin prayer was developed and is more widely known in the Roman Catholic Church:

Latin Text  Sub tuum praesidium confugimus, Sancta Dei Genetrix. Nostras deprecationes ne despicias in necessitatibus nostris, sed a periculis cunctis libera nos semper, Virgo gloriosa et benedicta

English Text We fly to Thy protection, O Holy Mother of God; Do not despise our petitions in our necessities, but deliver us always from all dangers, O Glorious and Blessed Virgin. Amen.

 

The prayer is currently part of the Byzantine, Roman and Ambrosian rites in the Catholic Church and is used specifically as a Marian antiphon after the conclusion of Compline outside of Lent (in the older form of the Roman breviary). It is also a common prayer that has stood the test of time and is a favorite of many Christians, and is the root of the popular devotional prayer, the Memorare.

 

[Biggirl]

It is like asking for prayers from family or friends.

[ealgeone]

God inspired the Bible writers and the Church put the Canon of the Bible together.

This is from the First Vatican Council....it's Roman Catholic. It contradicts what your position in regards to the "Church" and by that you mean the RCC.Chapter 2 On revelation

7. These books the Church holds to be sacred and canonical not because she subsequently approved them by her authority after they had been composed by unaided human skill, nor simply because they contain revelation without error, but because, being written under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, they have God as their author, and were as such committed to the Church.

https://www.ewtn.com/library/councils/v1.htm

The ekklesia, the body of believers, which is different than the RCC, through the guidance of the Holy Spirit, was responsible for deciding which books were or were not canon.

Rome didn't decide their canon until Trent.

[Mark17]

YEs! Of course!

And what did Judge Dredd say? "I knew you'd say that." 🎤🎧☃️🇸🇽 I guess I can avoid this. 🔥 That's a good thing. 😀😆😄😃

[aMorePerfectUnion]

“4And the smoke of the incense, with the prayers of the saints”

No indication in the text that anyone on earth prayed to a saint for n heaven.

What else do you want to put forth for discussion FRiend?

[aMorePerfectUnion]

“Compare it with this list. How many of your church leaders were killed for their faith?”

Tens of thousands of believers were martyred by popes and their people.

Just read what they did to the Waldensian Christian women and children.

https://www.museeprotestant.org/en/notice/a-history-of-the-waldensians/

[af_vet_1981]

Regardless of any answer I could supply, it remains that; the passage of NT scripture you had cited in post #61 does not in anyway falsify the statement -- which statement was;

No Jewish or Christian prayer is ever recorded in Scripture that addresses anyone but God.

Post 61 proved that aMorePerfectUnion's assertion was false. The rich man prayed to "Father Abraham."
aMorePerfectUnion did not qualify the assertion with "to anyone in heaven" so your assertion is false.

[af_vet_1981]

Regardless of any answer I could supply, it remains that; the passage of NT scripture you had cited in post #61 does not in anyway falsify the statement -- which statement was;

No Jewish or Christian prayer is ever recorded in Scripture that addresses anyone but God.

Post 61 proved that aMorePerfectUnion's assertion was false. The rich man prayed to "Father Abraham."
aMorePerfectUnion did not qualify the assertion with "to anyone in heaven" so your assertion is false.

[aMorePerfectUnion]

“The rich man prayed to “Father Abraham.”

No prayer involved at all. Just dead people talking to each other in a parable.

No one on earth praying to anyone in heaven.

You’ve yet to show that actually happened. What else do you have to discuss FRiend?

[MHGinTN]

You cannot be that dense ... where was father Abraham and where was the rich man? Really, the hoops catholic apologists arrange to jump through is sometimes actually comical ... sometimes.

[af_vet_1981]

2. No Jewish or Christian prayer is ever recorded in Scripture that addresses anyone but God.

9 posted on 4/29/2017, 11:52:36 AM by aMorePerfectUnion

As I proved in post 61, from the scriptures,

"Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame. "

What you wrote was false, demonstrably so; your comment contained no qualification about heaven, earth, hades, or gehenna.

[Elsie]

What is it about Protestants that make them think that Catholics give a d*** what they think about the Catholic Church?

Oh; I'd saying reading responses from Catholics on threads like this one might give some kind of clue.

[Elsie]

Because Protestants claim they are right.

When EVERYONE knows that only Catholics are.

[Elsie]

What is it about Catholics that they post open discussion threads and then complain when discussion happens?

They thought they wuz jess preachin' to the choir?

[Elsie]

Nothing makes Islamists happier than seeing Christians rip each other up.

and...

Nothing makes Christians happier than seeing Islamic groups rip each other up.

---

He will be a wild donkey of a man; his hand will be against everyone and everyone's hand against him, and he will live in hostility toward all his brothers."

Genesis 16:12

[Elsie]

Or BY her; either.

[Elsie]

Once again; the PHRASE “Mother of GOD” is NOT shown to be found ANYWHERE in the Bible.

[aMorePerfectUnion]

“What you wrote was false, demonstrably so; your comment contained no qualification about heaven, earth, hades, or gehenna.”

You are posting a falsehood amigo.

You have yet to prove it wasn’t a story.
You haven’t demonstrated a prayer - just a conversation in a story.

You must do both, if you hope to pass this off as a refutation. You haven’t done either yet.

Keep trying FRiend!

[af_vet_1981]

What? How does communication btwn to persons in the same realm outside of Heaven translate into praying to invisible created beings in Heaven from earth??? Unlike God, who alone is shown able to hear all prayer in Heaven, I only see two-way communication btwn other persons as both somehow actually being in the same realm, and apparently visibly so as i recall.

You have further restricted the question to invisible created beings in Heaven from earth. Now that is a tall order.
1. Created being, check,
2. Invisible as in no longer visible, check.
3. Saint in heaven, check.
4. Caller on earth, check.
5. Made a request or prayer, check.
6. Got an answer, check.
7. Gave the glory to God, check.
8. What's not to like ?

The saint carried the request to heaven, the one who prayed remained on earth and called out to the saint, and the prayer was answered from heaven.

And it came to pass, when the Lord would take up Elijah into heaven by a whirlwind, that Elijah went with Elisha from Gilgal. And Elijah said unto Elisha, Tarry here, I pray thee; for the Lord hath sent me to Bethel. And Elisha said unto him, As the Lord liveth, and as thy soul liveth, I will not leave thee. So they went down to Bethel. And the sons of the prophets that were at Bethel came forth to Elisha, and said unto him, Knowest thou that the Lord will take away thy master from thy head to day? And he said, Yea, I know it; hold ye your peace. And Elijah said unto him, Elisha, tarry here, I pray thee; for the Lord hath sent me to Jericho. And he said, As the Lord liveth, and as thy soul liveth, I will not leave thee. So they came to Jericho. And the sons of the prophets that were at Jericho came to Elisha, and said unto him, Knowest thou that the Lord will take away thy master from thy head to day? And he answered, Yea, I know it; hold ye your peace. And Elijah said unto him, Tarry, I pray thee, here; for the Lord hath sent me to Jordan. And he said, As the Lord liveth, and as thy soul liveth, I will not leave thee. And they two went on. And fifty men of the sons of the prophets went, and stood to view afar off: and they two stood by Jordan. And Elijah took his mantle, and wrapped it together, and smote the waters, and they were divided hither and thither, so that they two went over on dry ground. And it came to pass, when they were gone over, that Elijah said unto Elisha, Ask what I shall do for thee, before I be taken away from thee. And Elisha said, I pray thee, let a double portion of thy spirit be upon me. And he said, Thou hast asked a hard thing: nevertheless, if thou see me when I am taken from thee, it shall be so unto thee; but if not, it shall not be so. And it came to pass, as they still went on, and talked, that, behold, there appeared a chariot of fire, and horses of fire, and parted them both asunder; and Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven. And Elisha saw it, and he cried, My father, my father, the chariot of Israel, and the horsemen thereof. And he saw him no more: and he took hold of his own clothes, and rent them in two pieces. He took up also the mantle of Elijah that fell from him, and went back, and stood by the bank of Jordan; And he took the mantle of Elijah that fell from him, and smote the waters, and said, Where is the Lord God of Elijah? and when he also had smitten the waters, they parted hither and thither: and Elisha went over. And when the sons of the prophets which were to view at Jericho saw him, they said, The spirit of Elijah doth rest on Elisha. And they came to meet him, and bowed themselves to the ground before him.

Second Kings, Catholic chapter two, Protestant verses one to fifteen,
as authorized, but not authored, by King James

[Elsie]

28   611 [e] 28   apekrithē 28   ἀπεκρίθη 28   answered 28   V-AIP-3S

2381 [e] Thōmas Θωμᾶς Thomas N-NMS

2532 [e] kai καὶ and Conj

3004 [e] eipen εἶπεν said V-AIA-3S

846 [e] autō αὐτῷ  , to him PPro-DM3S

3588 [e] HO Ὁ the Art-VMS

2962 [e] Kyrios Κύριός Lord N-NMS

1473 [e] mou μου of me PPro-G1S

2532 [e] kai καὶ and Conj

3588 [e] ho ὁ the Art-VMS

2316 [e] Theos Θεός God N-NMS

1473 [e] mou μου  ! of me PPro-G1S

[Elsie]

Historicity is a very strong argument against Protestantism; for Protestantism to be valid one must admit that the church Jesus built failed, failed for most of history, and then the Protestant replica churches failed as well.

You mean those 7 CATHOLIC churches the angel told John to write to??