The oldest known Marian prayer is from Egypt

As we pray for the success of Pope Francis’ trip to Egypt this weekend, a perfect prayer to use is the oldest known Marian prayer, which in fact, traces back to the pope’s host country.

The oldest known Marian prayer is found on an ancient Egyptian papyrus dating from around the year 250. Today known in the Church as the Sub tuum praesidium, the prayer is believed to have been part of the Coptic Vespers liturgy during the Christmas season.

The original prayer was written in Greek and according to Roseanne Sullivan, “The prayer is addressed to Our Lady using the Greek word Θεοτόκος, which is an adjectival form of Θεοφόρος (Theotokos, or God-bearer) and is more properly translated as ‘she whose offspring is God.'” This helps to prove that the early Christians were already familiar with the word “Theotokos” well before the Third Ecumenical Council at Ephesus ratified its usage.

Below can be found the original Greek text from the papyrus, along with an English translation as listed on the New Liturgical Movement website:

Beneath your compassion,
We take refuge, O Mother of God:
do not despise our petitions in time of trouble:
but rescue us from dangers,
only pure, only blessed one.

Several centuries later a Latin prayer was developed and is more widely known in the Roman Catholic Church:

The prayer is currently part of the Byzantine, Roman and Ambrosian rites in the Catholic Church and is used specifically as a Marian antiphon after the conclusion of Compline outside of Lent (in the older form of the Roman breviary). It is also a common prayer that has stood the test of time and is a favorite of many Christians, and is the root of the popular devotional prayer, the Memorare.

Jesus had the perfect opportunity to state, or at least foreshadow, that Rome would play a role in Christian worship. As soon as she realized Jesus was a prophet, the woman at the well explicitly asked him about the proper location to worship. Jesus’ answer clearly indicates that physical location is no longer a factor:

John 4:

21 “Woman,” Jesus replied, “believe me, a time is coming when you will worship the Father neither on this mountain nor in Jerusalem.

22 You Samaritans worship what you do not know; we worship what we do know, for salvation is from the Jews.

23 Yet a time is coming and has now come when the true worshipers will worship the Father in the Spirit and in truth, for they are the kind of worshipers the Father seeks.

24 God is spirit, and his worshipers must worship in the Spirit and in truth.”

1. It's difficult to have a productive discussion about history if you don't cite any specifics. Judging by your response to #3, you seem to be confusing Gnostics and proto-Gnostics with Catholics. In point of fact, Catholic writers who refuted these heretics such as Irenaeus (without whom we would know little about what the heretics whom you seem to have in mind were teaching) also taught the Catholic Marian doctrines you are lumping in with the Gnostic heretics warned about in the NT (who had entirely different views about Mary than Catholics did and do).

2. If you understand the difference between prayer as worship and prayer as request in the general sense, where are you getting your prohibition against praying to saints in the non-worship sense from, since there are no Scriptures that prohibit this, and there are Scriptural examples of requesting prayers from other believers such as the ones I cited in the other part of my response to this item? Quote me a verse that prohibits requesting prayers from deceased saints.

3. What do you think the phrase "prayers of the saints" means in the verses from Revelation I cited? Who are the martyred saints mentioned there praying for?

Why are you assuming the Apostles didn't teach what their leading proteges practiced? And who do you think preserved the teaching of the Apostles, if you want to throw out the same 2nd-century sources we rely upon for our knowledge of what NT books the church accepted as Apostolic?

As for "Syncretic Paganism accelerated under Rome," again, if you don't cite any specifics, it's difficult to have a productive discussion. But if you're against paganism, you might want to consider that the Reformation's approach to exegesis was influenced by the Renaissance revival of paganism and by the late medieval adoption of Islamic fundamentalism's Scriptural interpretation methods.

4. I already quoted the requested passages in #3, which uses the phrase "prayers of the saints". If you will read these passages in context rather than ahistorically, you will see there are allusions to the Jewish temple and to early Christian worship, such as references to incense and (if you continue down to 6:9) altars. This reflects the role of the departed saints in late Judaism and early Christianity, and is consistent with practices that have been preserved in both Roman Catholic worship as well as Eastern churches that far predate the Reformation.

I don't need to redefine what "early church" means to make my point. I mean Matthew, Luke, John, Paul, Ignatius of Antioch, and Irenaeus from the first two centuries, as well as writers from the succeeding centuries such as Alexander of Alexandria, Cyril of Jerusalem, Athanasis of Alexandria, Epiphanius, Gregory Nazarien, all of whom are considered as part of the Apostolic and Patristic Ages by Catholic, Orthodox, and Protestant scholars alike, and all of whom attest to early Marian doctrine. But you seem to be redefining "early church" as "Gnostic" (if I am understanding your response to #3 correctly), which is certainly not how I define the early church and not who I am talking about.

Your comment about fleeing the truth and idols sounds like you might be the one fleeing the truth, since you don't address my point. You're claiming to follow Scripture but you're following an approach to exegesis that post-dates the NT by many centuries; and you're also using your own authority to prohibit practices that are not prohibited by Scripture.

5. If deceased saints aren't able to hear or communicate with us, what do you think Jesus was doing with Moses and Elijah at the Transfiguration? There is nothing in Scripture that teaches the deceased saints aren't able to hear or communicate with us--that is your own assumption, not something from Scripture. In addition to the passages I have cited from Hebrews and Revelation that allude to the deceased being present in Christian worship, Jewish practice of the time also assigned great importance to deceased saints, which is another source of data relevant to this discussion. I don't have a good source on this in English handy, but there's a German scholar named Arnold Goldberg who cites a lot of ancient evidence on this--for some bibliogaphic info, see Ra'anan S Boustan, "From Martyr to Mystic: Rabbinic Martyrology and the Making of Merkavah Mysticism", page 156.

Yes, the prior chapter in Hebrews describes the story of faith, and it describes those who are deceased as a "cloud of witnesses", and again in a context that is heavy with references to Jewish and Christian worship, attesting to the belief already present in 1st-century Jewish Christianity that the faithfully departed were present with the living during worship.

6. I appreciate the discussion as well, and will keep you in my prayers.

I wasn’t talking about Rome’s role in Christian worship, which is a new topic you’re introducing. But John 4 (which I just taught a Bible study on last week) doesn’t say “physical location is no longer a factor”—what Jesus does say there about physical locations simply indicates the center of worship will no longer be on Mt. Gezirim (the Samartian center of worship under discussion) or Mt. Zion—though it’s correct that Jesus places a greater emphasis on the spiritual worship there, foreshadowing the coming of the Holy Spirit and the fact that Christians are temples of the Holy Spirit. But as for the role Rome would play in Christian worship, Jesus does allude to it in his prophecy about the destruction of the Jerusalem temple (building on Daniel’s discussion of the fourth beast which also referenced Rome being conquered by the Messiah), and there is also an emphasis on Paul’s progress towards Rome in Acts, in addition to the references to Rome in Revelation; plus we have the witness of the 1st-century Roman bishop Clement of Rome and of Ireaneus, among others.

"Quote me a verse that prohibits requesting prayers from deceased saints."

... non-prohibition is the last sanctuary of those who cannot affirmatively support their cherished beliefs. It is a fallacious argument. The Scriptures do not teach that the idea of The Matrix is wrong either, now do they?

"prayers of the saints"

... Different meaning than "prayers to the saints."

"I don't need to redefine what "early church" means to make my point. I mean Matthew, Luke, John, Paul,

Then please quote what they said. Where did Matthew, Luke, John, Paul advocate, command, demonstrate or record any believer praying to a departed saint?

"If deceased saints aren't able to hear or communicate with us, what do you think Jesus was doing with Moses and Elijah at the Transfiguration?

...Christ brought them to that geographical location for His glory. In the passage, the disciples are not speaking to Moses or Elijah. There is no evidence, even in this context, that Moses or Elijah were aware that the disciples were present to observe, nor heard. If you become God, presumably you would be capable of the same miracle, but we both know that isn't happening, so it remains a category mistake in this discussion.

There is nothing in Scripture that teaches the deceased saints aren't able to hear or communicate with us-

...You continue to flee to "invisible evidence" to try to prove your (I assume) cherished practice. It is still as invisible as the King's new clothes. There is nothing in Scripture to indicate putting pizza in our shoes will guard us against satan, or attract angels around us.

I appreciate the discussion as well, and will keep you in my prayers.

... Thank you! Please pray to God. I'll do the same for you.

If any physical location was to factor into Christian worship, Jesus would have said so. He didn’t play games or get cute with people. When He was asked a sincere question, Jesus gave an honest answer.

The Samaritan woman asked Jesus where worship should be centered, physically speaking. His answer was to contrast physical location with the new standard. The new standard is not a location, but a state of the heart. I.e.: from now on, true worship is that which takes place in spirit and truth.

There is no honest way to get Rome from Jesus’ answer. Were Rome to be in any way significant, an honest person would have said so. Jesus didn’t force us to play guessing games. He said what He meant, and He was always honest.

From that time onward, true worshippers were/are those who worship in spirit and truth. Heaven help us if we add more to this teaching than Jesus saw fit to add Himself.

Why do you claim non-prohibition is a fallacious argument? Paul uses it in Romans 14 and 1 Corinthians 8, most notably. I am not arguing from an absence of evidence, which is what you seem to assume I'm doing--and I agree that would be fallacious, but that's not what I'm arguing. I am arguing that the way 2nd-century church leaders who were trained by the Apostles interpreted the NT passages is consistent with historic Catholic practice. You are interpreting certain passages differently than I am, but a different interpretation is not a mere absence of evidence. And I am also arguing that Scripture does not give laymen the authority to prohibit practices which have not been prohibited by God. That does not mean we cannot make logical deductions from principles, to address another point you make towards the end of your reply. But I see no Scriptural principle that teaches we should not ask our faithfully-departed brethren to pray for us, and I see Scriptural principles as well as Jewish and post-Apostolic practices that imply the opposite.

You did not answer my question about who the "prayers of saints" in Revelation were for. I did not say it said "prayers to the saints", but per your own point about making reasonable inferences from what Scripture does say, I await your answer to this question. Who are the martyred saints in Revelation praying for? (And if you look down at 6:9-10, that verse does suggest they have awareness of what's going on on earth.)

My reference to Matthew, Luke, John, and Paul was referring to their general Mariology, not specifically to praying to departed saints, if you look back at the item I was replying to. You will not find praying to departed Christian saints in the early books of the NT for the logical reason that there were few Christian martyrs until after the fall of Jerusalem, so they're weren't dead Christians to pray to yet. But there are references to praying to OT saints in the Judaism of the time, and--I am arguing (in brief: obviously I am not doing a full-length study here, but I can provide a bibliography when I have more time if requested)--there are allusions to praying to saints in Hebrews and Revelation as well--by the time these books were written, there were a growing number of Christian martyrs.

The Transfiguration: how did Peter know it was Moses and Elijah if there was the absolute lack of awareness you posit? There is nothing in the passages in question that imply only Jesus was able to hear them. When God spoke and said "This is my Son, whom I love; with him I am well pleased. Listen to him!", the indication is that the Apostles could hear what was being said. Peter describes himself, James, and John as "eyewitnesses" to the event in 2 Peter. All indications are that they were fully present to the conversation (to the point where Peter offered to put up tents for their ghostly guests!).

"If you become God, presumably you would be capable of the same miracle, but we both know that isn't happening, so it remains a category mistake in this discussion." I do not need to become God--which is impossible--because God dwells in me through the Holy Spirit, and the Holy Spirit "intercedes with us with groans that words cannot express"--and the Holy Spirit can certainly communicate with the faithful departed, which is another point I'd encourage you to consider.

Thank you for your prayers. I pray that God will guide us both to greater knowledge of the truth of His Word.

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The "Sub tuum praesidium" was originally used in an ancient Coptic liturgy