Posted on 06/16/2015 11:58:25 AM PDT by ReformationFan
The attempt to change God the Father to God the Mother is full bore idolatry—a syncretism of the spirit of the age.
I remember some of the most emotionally powerful moments of worship that I have experienced occurred in a context where there was the least amount of belief. There was a time in my life when I regularly went to worship at Grace Cathedral in San Francisco, a beautiful church building that had this glorious liturgy. And it would be my habit to go there on Sunday morning and to sit in the pew and listen to the music and to work through the liturgy. And then when the pastor got up to preach I also would get up and walk out of the building because I knew what I was going to hear was not going to be faithful to God’s Word. I’m old, but I’m not old enough to remember when the Episcopal Church was a faithful church, generally speaking.
More recently, the Church of England has ordained their very first female Bishop, her name is Libby Lane. Not long after her installation as a bishop, she proposed some significant changes that would take away what yet remains the best part of the church of England: so much of the liturgy that is in the Book of Common Prayer. You see, that is why I loved that worship service, because that Book of Common Prayer was infused with Scripture and infused with sound doctrine even though the people saying it, the ones leading the liturgy, didn’t believe it. The actual words were the words of life.
But now comes Bishop Lane and she has some changes in mind for the Book of Common Prayer. It is not changing the doctrine of how we have peace with God, it is not changing the doctrine of man, it is not choosing Arminianism over Calvinism, she just wants “a few changes.” Instead of referring to God the way the Bible does, in masculine language, she would like to see it include some feminine language for who God is—referring to Him as Her, referring to our Heavenly Father as our Heavenly Mother.
Now the reasoning is pretty simple; her thought is that this would be more inclusive and make other people feel more welcome because, somehow, referring to God in the masculine is off-putting to a certain class of people. I agree. This class of people, however, are those who do not like God.
When we read through the historical accounts of the Old Testament, I’ve often argued that the most frequent sin that we see crop up among God’s people is idolatry. And that idolatry almost always takes the form of syncretism. That’s a big word but is really not that complicated of a concept. Syncretism is the blending together of two things. In this context, the blending together of the worship of the true and living God with the spirit of the age. With the children of Israel start worshiping Baal, they don’t say, “Yesterday we worshipped Yahweh, but this is not going well so let’s worship Baal instead.” Rather, what they did was that they would blend together the qualities, the characteristics, and the liturgies of Baal to mix them with the qualities and characteristics of the true and living God. Well, that should be instructive to us. The temptation isn’t going to be those who show up and say, “You know, that whole God thing, the whole Trinity thing, let’s try a whole different God.” Rather it is an attempt to redefine and reshape who we think God to be and to do so in a way that accommodates the broader unbelieving culture. That is exactly what we have in this proposal, in this suggestion.
If we can take the true and living God and we can reshape Him, remold Him, and in fact rename him, or put Him through the liturgical equivalent of the surgery of Bruce Jenner, we can turn Him into a Her, our God into a goddess. I wish Miss Lane would heed the wisdom of my favorite Anglican, C.S. Lewis. It was Lewis who told us that–recognizing that God in one sense transcends gender, God is not a man–God is so utterly masculine that all of us are feminine in comparison. Masculinity is essential to what God is. That is the reason that God is described to us as our Father, that is the reason His son is called the Son. There is a reality about who He is and we have to hold onto it and not accommodate or mold and shape God into our own image. We have to, being feminine, respond to His leadership. And when God says He is our Father, our calling is to say “Yes, Father” in return.
At least you’ve made plain what part of the “Hoss” you are
After 2500 there seems to be little point in collecting any more, the points been made. The document is clearly anything but inerrant. As an alegorical writing, though, it has much to recommend it.
Interesting... You can attack the poster but not the point.
Since you've resorted to personal attacks, you concede the argument. Thanks for playing.
Hoss (either end you prefer)
How can we participate in our salvation BEFORE it occurs? We cannot. We are dead in sin. A corpse. What can a corpse do? Nothing. When we are quickened, we are brought to life in Christ -- saved -- and we then are changed (the Old Man passes away). The New Man man may be used of God to bring the gospel, to lead others to Him...but HE alone saves.
You listed Ephesians 2:8; let's not forget the rest:
Ephesians 2
"2 And you were dead in the trespasses and sins 2 in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience— 3 among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind. 4 But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, 5 even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved— 6 and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, 7 so that in the coming ages he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. 8 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, 9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast. 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them."
Did the thief on the cross do ALL of those things you listed? He believed.
The problem with the Roman Cult is thinking that we can do ANYTHING to cause, aid or abet our salvation. Rome says we have to have faith and do works. No. The works we do are because of our faith. Twisting James doesn't work. We can't participate in something that by our unsaved nature we abhor... It is a gift from God to an already dead soul. It is truly mercy and grace. The faith we have in him comes from him.
Hoss
You began the personal attacks when you suggested gratitude I was not your teacher. We’ll see what you can learn.
The point is that the rules of logic go back to before Aristotle and yet somehow you’ve reached adulthood oblivious to them. Briefly stated, extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof.
Provide some proof for virgin birth, burning (yet unconsumed ) bushes, the sun stopping in the sky, walking on water, resurrection from the dead, living within the belly of a whale, etc. etc and I’ll discuss it. Absent proof, reasonable doubt is the most logical position. No system of rational thought requires me to prove everyday experience when challenged by extraordinary claims that violate empirical experience.
If this is beyond your comprehension, that’s not the teacher’s fault.
That's just it. All those things I listed can be summarized in one phrase, "To be incorporated into Christ." That is what Faith is, a living Faith: being in Him, because He is Love and He is the source of Life. Without Him, nothing in us is alive.
The Thief aligned himself with Christ, he chose Him in trust. This was cooperation in Salvation; this was incorporation into Christ.
The distinction between "a living faith" and "a dead faith" is of key importance, and here we find Paul in complete agreement with James:
1 Corinthians 13:2
"If I have all faith so as to move mountains but do not have love, I am nothing."
That is why our Salvation, gained for us by Christ's sacrifice, comes by all of those means of Salvation listed in Scripture. One can't just brush away Jesus' answer to the very question: "Lord, what must I do to be saved?"
Matthew 19:16
Now someone approached him and said, “Teacher, what good must I do to gain eternal life?”
His answer? "If you wish to enter into life, keep the commandments.”
Mark 10:17 The Rich Man. As he was setting out on a journey, a man ran up, knelt down before him, and asked him, “Good teacher, what must I do to inherit eternal life?”
Jesus answered him, “Why do you call me good? No one is good but God alone. You know the commandments: ‘You shall not kill; you shall not commit adultery; you shall not steal; you shall not bear false witness; you shall not defraud; honor your father and your mother.’”
He replied and said to him, “Teacher, all of these I have observed from my youth.”
Jesus, looking at him, loved him and said to him, “You are lacking in one thing. Go, sell what you have, and give to [the] poor and you will have treasure in heaven; then come, follow me.”
At that statement his face fell, and he went away sad, for he had many possessions.
Luke 10:25
There was a scholar of the law who stood up to test him and said, “Teacher, what must I do to inherit eternal life?”
Jesus said to him, “What is written in the law? How do you read it?”
He said in reply, “You shall love the Lord, your God, with all your heart, with all your being, with all your strength, and with all your mind, and your neighbor as yourself.”
He replied to him, “You have answered correctly; do this and you will live.”
Do not imagine that all the items in that Scriptural list I gave you, are not related to Salvation itself. Christ in Matthew 25 clearly lays out the very criteria of whether one is saved with the lambs on His right, or damned with the goats on His left.
This is what He equates with living faith, because here's the amazing thing: every one of them is surprised, both the saved and the damned. Both groups say, "Lord, when did we see you hungry? Lord, when did we see You thirsty?" Even those who were saved, did not know that these acts of mercy were acts of faith in Christ, because they, too, are perplexed: "Lord, when did we see you naked, or sick, or imprisoned?"
If you're perplexed about whether one has to have explicit "faith" before their works of mercy "count," --- well, ask Him. Evidently He was telling the truth back in Matthew 5: the merciful receive mercy.
he Thief aligned himself with Christ, he chose Him in trust. This was cooperation in Salvation; this was incorporation into Christ.
How? The thief was DEAD IN TRESPASSES AND SIN. Until God changed his heart, there was no hope. The Thief "aligned" himself only in the sense that he expressed the faith in Christ THAT GOD GAVE HIM THROUGH GRACE. The Thief had no ability to align himself prior to God's calling him.
We cannot act while we are yet dead in our sins. We just can't. It's impossible. All of the scripture you quote is to show we cannot hope to live perfectly according to the law...only Christ did. Our faith in him comes from God to us by His mercy NOT OUR CHOICE.
Context is your friend.
Im still waiting for your response concerning Roman Catholic heresy regarding Mary being elevated to mediatrix and provider of salvation in CCC 969 in direct opposition to God's inerrant and infallible word. Do you agree with Rome, or with God? No false dilemma here...
Hoss
This is not only laughable, it's pitiable. Really? What preceded that? You questioned my education. Really.
You lost the point-- sorry.
Hoss
Discuss the issues all you want, but do not make it personal.
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/religion/3300896/posts?page=43#41
Nowhere did I compare you to horse anatomy. That was all you.
RM: thanks as always; I didn't push the abuse button on 41 as I'm thick-skinned enough to deal with it. Just surprised to be told I started it. I stand warned per policy.
Hoss
There were no abuse reports. And I didn’t say you started it. I pinged you both.
Extraordinary? I find the "claims" to be true. I have not the first problem with The Bible. If YOU do, instead of trying to argue the finer points of argumentation, prove to me why I'm wrong! You've made the the claim about 2,500 issues or inconsistencies...not me-- so show us all the proof you're right,
Otherwise the claim of 2,500 whatever is just that: a claim.
Hoss (either end you prefer)
Understood; sorry if I wasn’t clear—I didn’t assume you thought I had started it...that was by general explanation to the poster who made the claim.
Sorry for the trouble and thanks as always.
Hoss
Despite your whining, the inescapable fact remains that miracles, to be accepted as real, require proof. Scepticism about miraculous claims require no proof. If this is beyond your comprehensiom, as it seems increasingly likely, that’s not my responsibility to rectify. I can explain it for you, I cannot be expected to understand it for you.
Who's whining? I have no issue with the Bible, what it says or what it teaches. I believe it. I'm a Christian.
You are the one who came along and indicated some 2,500 flaws -- all I did was ask you to prove the flaws. You made the issue, not me. It's not up to me to prove anything to you. Personally, the very fact that we are alive is a miracle -- and the fact we are alive is proof to me. I know that most likely won't appeal to your high sense of logic and education -- it's not meant to.
Now, there is a major issue that hasn't been voiced, and that is the fact that we all have need of a savior. You do too, whether you believe it now or not. Have you actually read the Bible? Or do you just like to carp about it? The fact that this seems so important to you could be an indication that God is working on your heart....that's why I wanted you to prove your claims... we could at least discuss these issues.
God exists. We wouldn't exist without him.... the odds of lightning striking a puddle and cause life to progress against the law of Entropy requires it. How do eyes, one of the arguably most complex organs, evolve up into more complexity while avoiding Occam's Razor?
Do you know God? Have you sought to meet him in the pages of the Bible and through prayer? Would you like to? It seems to me this concern of yours with truth and fact is a good thing -- what would make it best would be the knowledge of the truth of God and the salvation he offers through the shed blood of his Son Jesus Christ.
Let's talk about that....
Hoss (either end you prefer)
If you will read my responses to you on this thread, you will see they are all Scriptural. It is Scripture vs Scripture --- or, more accurately, interpretation against interpretation.
You have not engaged with any of the Scriptures I cited. This is disappointing, but it is not entirely surprising: because of "confirmation bias", it is easy to simply say "My quotes are relevant, even absolute; your quotes are not relevant, they're distractions."
Then the argument descends into sheer foolishness, as the same "favorite" verses get repeated, bolded, set in bigger font sizes, color-enhanced, while the "unfavorite" verses are shunted off to the side ("I won't run down that rabbit trail") or passed by in silence.
Most Christians will agree with the principle that Scripture should be interpreted by Scripture. This seems promising until Scriptures are encountered which "apparently" contradict one another. Examples of these run into the hundreds, and they are ridiculously easy to find. Just a couple examples:
Num 6:5
"In all his days dedicated to God, no razor shall come upon his head. He shall be holy, and let the locks of hair grow freely."BUT
1 Cor 11:14
"Doth not even nature itself teach you, that if a man have long hair, it is a shame unto him?"
Gen 2:3
"And God blessed the Sabbath day, and made it holy."BUT
Isaiah 1:13
"The new moons and sabbaths, the calling of assemblies, I cannot abide: it is unrighteous."BUT
Exodus 21:8
"Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy."BUT
Romans 14:5
"One man esteemeth one day above another; another man esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind."
Eph 5:25,29
"Husbands, love your wives... for no man ever yet hated his own flesh."Eph 6:2
"Honor thy father and thy mother."
BUTLuke 14:26
"If any man come unto me, and hate not his father, and mother, and wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be my disciple."
Gen 2:18
"And the Lord said, 'It is not good that the man should be alone.'"BUT
1 Cor 7:1
"It is good for a man not to touch a woman."
All is not lost, because "apparent" contradictions can often be resolved by putting the statements into a framework that construes their meanings differently according to context (It commanded THIS in the OT but THAT in the NT; THIS was for Jews and THAT was for Gentiles; THIS was a temporary accommodation, THAT is the overall principle; this word meant thus-and-such in Classical Greek, but something else in Koine Greek) --- etc.
But then we're into the realm of "Your hermeneutic is baloney, nyaa nyaa nyaa.."
((Sigh...))
I'd like to get this discussion off on another point of departure. A more basic, shall we say foundational question. Here it is:
Are we created in the image and likeness of God? What does this consist of?
God bless you, Hoss.
God can be Father without being mother. The mother is the one who carries the embryo to term. In creating Adam and Eve, God needed no mother, He just created them from dirt.
In the case of Jesus, God caused Mary to become pregnant, which is something Fathers do.
So you’ve reached this point in your life still unclear on the differences between faith and logic? You can claim to believe the bible but you cannot, reasonably claim you believe it because it is logical. Our everyday empirical experience tells us no one walks on water. No one comes back from the grave. No one is born from a virgin. Logic tells us that the sun was never stopped in the sky since it is the earth that rotates; to claim the sun stopped is an error. To claim the existence of four legged winged things is an error. To call bats, birds is an error. To give two conflicting stories of the origin of Eve is an error. There are lots more; do your own research.
I need no savior, I was born just fine the first time.
And God bless you too Mrs. Don-o...
While I respect your position, I must disagree that scripture does not contradict itself; sadly the issue here is the misinterpretation of scripture for centuries by the Roman Catholic Church.
Earlier, I put you to a question regarding the teaching of the Roman Catholic Church regarding Mary in CCC 969 and how this issue DIRECTLY contradicts scripture... and not just scripture, but Christ himself. What is your take on this? This is the key here, not apparently contradicting scriptures (which actually exegetically resolve), but the FALSE GOSPEL being taught by the Roman Catholic Church.
Let’s start there instead.
Hoss
And for this statement alone, I pity you more than I think I have ever pitied a human being that I've known. Sincerely.
You weren't born "just fine" -- none of us were. What exactly is the point of living for you? What is the ultimate point? What is your raison d'être? But beyond that, what is the ultimate reason that the human race exists?
Do you believe in the theory of evolution?
How does logic tell us these things you claim? You continually make these claims of the lack of logic, then fail continually to explain how they fail... instead you direct me to "do your own research."
If you are so very, very sure of all of your claims, then support them here. Explain your positions. Demonstrate the faults you have found. I find your lack of willingness to do this very telling as to the veracity of your claim.
Yet, I'm glad you are still replying because that means there is still opportunity for me and others to present to you the Gospel... the truth of why we were made, why we are fallen and why we need a Savior.
Please explain and clarify all of these issues that apparently have caused me to be deluded... show me the logic. Show us all the logic here.
Hoss
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