Posted on 06/16/2015 11:58:25 AM PDT by ReformationFan
You said: "While I respect your position, I must disagree that scripture does not contradict itself..."
But I did not assert that Scripture contradicts itself. I said:
Scriptures are encountered which "apparently" contradict one another.
You'll notice that I put "apparently" in quotes in the original, which I meant for emphasis. (Really, that's a bad practice and I shouldn't do use quotes for emphasis. I should use bold.) Then I said (with "apparent" emphasized in quotes again)
"[A]pparent" contradictions can often be resolved by putting the statements into a framework that construes their meanings differently according to context"
I personally have found that these paradoxes are resolvable.
I have the highest of high view of Scripture. By which I do not mean I understand it all, but that I have the highest confidence in its Divine Author and His non-contradictory nature.
Now, briefly, to the substance of your question:
Scripture shows that we who members of the Body of Christ are cooperators, participants, whom Christ has graciously associated with Himself in His great work of Salvation, which He accomplished on the Cross.
You don't know my whole posting history, of course, but this is what I keep saying when I invite people time and time again to more deeply receive the meaning of being members of the Body of Christ.
The "Body of Christ" is absolutely key in understanding how we are ALL filled with the Divine Life and the salvific mission which we receive from Christ, our Head.
Once you grasp that we are participating in the Divine Nature (2 Peter 1:4), filling up what was lacking in Christ's afflictions (Col. 1:24), taking up the Cross (Matt. 16:24-26) and actually, really united with Christ in his death and resurrection (Romans 6:3-6; Phil 3:10; and many other places) --- then you can see that we are all, in Him, Advocates, Helpers, Benefactors, and Mediators. This applies to Him, our Head, in the primary sense, and to all of His Body in a secondary and subordinate sense. We are joined to Him in the work of salvation.
All of us.
Thus what is said of Mary is not unique to her, but applies to all of us who can say with St. Paul, "I have been crucified with Christ. Nevertheless I live, yet not I, but Christ lives in me."
So here's the bigger picture: we say this not just of Mary, but of all of who are in Christ: we are Advocates, Helpers, Benefactors, and Mediators; we are participating in the Divine Nature; we are cooperators in the salvation of the world.
There is only one Savior, Jesus Christ; and we are in Him.
Trust me, I was born just fine. I have no invisible friends living in the sky, no belief in magic apples or talking snakes and no fear of judgement by the supernatural. The attraction of superstition eludes me. I like it that way.
Back about 2000 years ago people didn’t believe in the ability to manipulate atoms either. Who made those atoms in the first place?
“Logic” tells us lots of things, that aren’t necessarily so. Logic tells us what a hypothetical would should be like but doesn’t explain the real world that is.
And logic cannot explain the illogical.
So just what if your basis for truth, if you’re going to tell someone they are in error?
It must be nice to be perfect. How do you manage in such an imperfect world?
Actually no.. we are not intercessors --- remember 2 Timothy 2:5? There is ONE intercessor between God and men, the man Christ Jesus. We can pray to God that through HIS mercy he will be merciful or provide salvation to someone we care for... intercessory prayer ... we pray directly TO God. Mary is not omniscient. She provides not one whit of salvation or mediation or intercession. She cannot hear prayers; ONLY CHRIST intercedes for us...
Finessing it any way you like does not change this: Mary is elevated to a position by the Roman Catholic Church that is not biblical. Rome teaches that Mary does things that only Christ can do. That is blasphemy. Sorry. But that is the truth. Rome teaches things that are directly contradicted by scripture. Period.
Hoss
It's very complicated the way the Catholic church deals with it. Instead of 15 things that people have to do and some of which people need to continue to do, God requires ONE, and Jesus tells us what that is.
John 3:14-18 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, so must the Son of Man be lifted up, that whoever believes in him may have eternal life. “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God.
John 5:24 Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life. He does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life.
John 6:40 For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who looks on the Son and believes in him should have eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day.”
John 11:25-26 Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life. Whoever believes in me, though he die, yet shall he live, and everyone who lives and believes in me shall never die. Do you believe this?”
It's to believe. That's all.
When we do that, we are declared righteous in a judicial pardon of all our sin, and are regenerated, born again as new creatures in Christ.
Sanctification, growing into the likeness of Christ, takes a lifetime, but only happens to those who are already saved, and how we do in becoming sanctified does not affect our justification, which is a done deal.
IOW, we can't lose our salvation due to whatever actions on our part.
What if you're wrong? Are you prepared for an eternity of punishment?
What if you're wrong?
Hoss
The proof of miracles is that they happened.
If you could explain them, they wouldn't be miracles.
Inexplicable happenings can't be dismissed because they can't be explained. To take that path requires a denial of reality.
Yes.
And all of who are in Christ are Advocates, Helpers, Benefactors, and Mediators.
Thus we are all, in Him, Advocates, Helpers, Benefactors, and Mediators. This applies to Him, our Head, in the primary sense, and to all of His Body in a secondary and subordinate sense. We are joined to Him in the work of salvation.
You are not really addressing this connection. But I will be interested in listening if you want to try again.
Sorry Mrs. Don-o, you simply cannot claim that we are all mediators without running smack into the clear, plain words of Scripture.
We can intercede for others, we can help them, we can do good things for them, but we CANNOT do it in the way is needed by mankind to come into right relationship with God because we don't have the ability nor the right to.
Jesus does because HE is the one who died for us.
Those roles are the job of either Jesus or the Holy Spirit, who hold those titles.
Paul warned: "See then the kindness and the severity of God: severity toward those who have fallen, but God’s kindness to you, provided you continue in his kindness; otherwise you too will be cut off" (Rom. 11:22; see also Heb. 10:26–29, 2 Pet. 2:20–21).
All of us are prone to self-deception on this matter. Jesus declared: ‘Not everyone who says to me, "Lord, Lord" shall enter the kingdom of heaven’ (Matt. 7:21)." Even Paul did not claim an infallible assurance of his justification or of his remaining in grace in the future. He wrote, "I am not aware of anything against myself, but I am not thereby justified [Gk., dedikaiomai]." (1 Cor. 4:4). Paul admitted that even he could fall away: "I pummel my body and subdue it, lest after preaching to others I myself should be disqualified" (1 Cor. 9:27).
One can fall from grace through mortal sin, or even fall away from the faith entirely. Jesus said there are those who "believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away" (Luke 8:13). We may have a well-founded hope of being saved; but this is not infallible certitude.
Paul says, "Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, so now, not only as in my presence but much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling." (Philippians 2:12) Trust in Christ? Yes. Certitude of salvation? No. Our salvation --- says Paul --- is something that remains to be worked out.
I always thought that St. Joan of Arc had an admirable answer when she was asked about her salvation. She said, "I have been saved; I am bring saved; I pray that through God's mercy I will be saved."
Some of the sternest, and, to my mind, most sobering verses in the Gospels are where Jesus tells us solemnly that we will lose our chance of Heaven, of being forgiven of our sins, if we do not forgive:
Matthew 6:15 - "But if you do not forgive others, your Father will not forgive you your sins. ...
Mark 11:26 - "But if you do not forgive, neither will your Father who is in heaven forgive your sins."
Matthew 18:34-35 - "In anger his master handed him over to the jailers to be tortured...This is how my heavenly Father will treat each of you, if you do not forgive your brother from your heart.”
I omitted a WHOLE PARAGRAPH of what I just sent to you. Please kindly check this out. The second paragraph was omitted:
I always thought that St. Joan of Arc had an admirable answer when she was asked about her salvation. She said, "I have been saved; I am bring saved; I pray that through God's mercy I will be saved." I only recently realized that this is just what it says in Holy Scripture: "I am already saved (Rom. 8:24, Eph. 2:5–8), but I’m also being saved (1 Cor. 1:18, 2 Cor. 2:15, Phil. 2:12), and I have the hope that I will be saved (Rom. 5:9–10, 1 Cor. 3:12–15).
Who do we save?
Hoss
That’s up to God!
Not only who do we save... but HOW do we save them? If we are joined to Christ in the work of salvation, when were we sinless before God and then crucified? Because THAT is the work of salvation. Christ completed that work on the cross. We can pray for others, we can seek to do good for others, bring others the Gospel, but we do not save anyone, nor do we participate in that work because Christ alone did the work and it is finished.
And all of who are in Christ are Advocates, Helpers, Benefactors, and Mediators.
Simply, no. Christ alone is our mediator. Christ alone completed the work of salvation.
Now... remember... context is your friend....
2 Peter 1:4... but in context:
2 Peter 1:3-11
"3 His divine power has granted to us all things that pertain to life and godliness, through the knowledge of him who called us to[c] his own glory and excellence,[d] 4 by which he has granted to us his precious and very great promises, so that through them you may become partakers of the divine nature, having escaped from the corruption that is in the world because of sinful desire. 5 For this very reason, make every effort to supplement your faith with virtue,[e] and virtue with knowledge, 6 and knowledge with self-control, and self-control with steadfastness, and steadfastness with godliness, 7 and godliness with brotherly affection, and brotherly affection with love. 8 For if these qualities[f] are yours and are increasing, they keep you from being ineffective or unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 For whoever lacks these qualities is so nearsighted that he is blind, having forgotten that he was cleansed from his former sins. 10 Therefore, brothers,[g] be all the more diligent to confirm your calling and election, for if you practice these qualities you will never fall. 11 For in this way there will be richly provided for you an entrance into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ."
This passage is to urge us to grow in our faith, knowledge, virtue and self-control so that we can rest assured in our calling and election. It's for us.
Colossians 1:24. Let's back up a bit prior to the verse that you quote and put all in context:
Colossians 1:15-23
"15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation. 16 For by[f] him all things were created, in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things were created through him and for him. 17 And he is before all things, and in him all things hold together. 18 And he is the head of the body, the church. He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in everything he might be preeminent. 19 For in him all the fullness of God was pleased to dwell, 20 and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether on earth or in heaven, making peace by the blood of his cross.
21 And you, who once were alienated and hostile in mind, doing evil deeds, 22 he has now reconciled in his body of flesh by his death, in order to present you holy and blameless and above reproach before him, 23 if indeed you continue in the faith, stable and steadfast, not shifting from the hope of the gospel that you heard, which has been proclaimed in all creation[g] under heaven, and of which I, Paul, became a minister."
Looks like this chapter is to reinforce the primacy Christ -- and that HE alone is responsible for reconciling all things to himself.
Matthew 16:24... let's go to the end of the chapter instead of just v. 26...
"24 Then Jesus told his disciples, “If anyone would come after me, let him deny himself and take up his cross and follow me. 25 For whoever would save his life[g] will lose it, but whoever loses his life for my sake will find it. 26 For what will it profit a man if he gains the whole world and forfeits his soul? Or what shall a man give in return for his soul? 27 For the Son of Man is going to come with his angels in the glory of his Father, and then he will repay each person according to what he has done. 28 Truly, I say to you, there are some standing here who will not taste death until they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom.”
We are to deny ourselves and take up our crosses. Not his. Only HE can take up HIS cross. This is to teach us that we are to work diligently for the Kingdom for Christ. It doesn't mean that we in some way can take up Christ's Cross.
Romans 6... in context:
"What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin that grace may abound? 2 By no means! How can we who died to sin still live in it? 3 Do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? 4 We were buried therefore with him by baptism into death, in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, we too might walk in newness of life.
5 For if we have been united with him in a death like his, we shall certainly be united with him in a resurrection like his. 6 We know that our old self[a] was crucified with him in order that the body of sin might be brought to nothing, so that we would no longer be enslaved to sin. 7 For one who has died has been set free[b] from sin. 8 Now if we have died with Christ, we believe that we will also live with him. 9 We know that Christ, being raised from the dead, will never die again; death no longer has dominion over him. 10 For the death he died he died to sin, once for all, but the life he lives he lives to God. 11 So you also must consider yourselves dead to sin and alive to God in Christ Jesus.
12 Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, to make you obey its passions. 13 Do not present your members to sin as instruments for unrighteousness, but present yourselves to God as those who have been brought from death to life, and your members to God as instruments for righteousness. 14 For sin will have no dominion over you, since you are not under law but under grace."
We are dead to sin, alive in Christ. This describes our situation because of Christ's crucifixion, death and resurrection. This wonderfully describes those called and saved... it doesn't speak to being a benefactor, mediator or advocate.
Philippians 3 in context:
"Finally, my brothers,[a] rejoice in the Lord. To write the same things to you is no trouble to me and is safe for you. 2 Look out for the dogs, look out for the evildoers, look out for those who mutilate the flesh. 3 For we are the circumcision, who worship by the Spirit of God[b] and glory in Christ Jesus and put no confidence in the flesh— 4 though I myself have reason for confidence in the flesh also. If anyone else thinks he has reason for confidence in the flesh, I have more: 5 circumcised on the eighth day, of the people of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, a Hebrew of Hebrews; as to the law, a Pharisee; 6 as to zeal, a persecutor of the church; as to righteousness under the law,[c] blameless. 7 But whatever gain I had, I counted as loss for the sake of Christ. 8 Indeed, I count everything as loss because of the surpassing worth of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord. For his sake I have suffered the loss of all things and count them as rubbish, in order that I may gain Christ 9 and be found in him, not having a righteousness of my own that comes from the law, but that which comes through faith in Christ, the righteousness from God that depends on faith— 10 that I may know him and the power of his resurrection, and may share his sufferings, becoming like him in his death,"
Paul demonstrates that he although he could claim that he could claim confidence in the flesh, he knows that his salvation is through faith in Christ...nothing about advocacy, nothing about being a benefactor...nothing. This is about recognizing that our salvation is through faith.
There is no connection to address.... Christ alone saves. Christ alone mediates. Christ alone intercedes for us with the Father.
Hoss
Eeeeeexactly. Through Christ. Not us. We do not mediate. We are not intercessors... only Christ.
We can and should witness and pray to and for others; pray intercessory prayers... but we do not intercede.
and neither does Mary.
Hoss
And that is why sin has no power over the believer to condemn him again. That is why when we sin, as we ALL do, it does not result in spiritual death again.
Thanks for putting everything in context.
So then there's an apparent contradiction that Catholics need to address and rarely, if ever, do I see that happen, nor do I see any Catholics explain our *guarantee of our inheritance* doesn't mean *guarantee of our inheritance*.
Security of the believer
John 5:24 Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life. He does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life.
John 6:37-39 All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out. For I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will but the will of him who sent me. And this is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me, but raise it up on the last day.
John 10:25-30 Jesus answered them, “I told you, and you do not believe. The works that I do in my Father's name bear witness about me, but you do not believe because you are not among my sheep. My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me. I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand. I and the Father are one.”
1 Corinthians 1:4-8 I give thanks to my God always for you because of the grace of God that was given you in Christ Jesus,that in every way you were enriched in him in all speech and all knowledge—even as the testimony about Christ was confirmed among you—so that you are not lacking in any gift, as you wait for the revealing of our Lord Jesus Christ, who will sustain you to the end, guiltless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ.
2 Corinthians 1:21-22 And it is God who establishes us with you in Christ, and has anointed us, and who has also put his seal on us and given us his Spirit in our hearts as a guarantee.
2 Corinthians 5:4-8 For while we are still in this tent, we groan, being burdened—not that we would be unclothed, but that we would be further clothed, so that what is mortal may be swallowed up by life. He who has prepared us for this very thing is God, who has given us the Spirit as a guarantee.
So we are always of good courage. We know that while we are at home in the body we are away from the Lord, for we walk by faith, not by sight. Yes, we are of good courage, and we would rather be away from the body and at home with the Lord.
Ephesians 1:13-14 In him you also, when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, who is the guarantee of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it, to the praise of his glory.
Ephesians 4:30 And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.
Colossians 1:13-14 He has delivered us from the domain of darkness and transferred us to the kingdom of his beloved Son, in whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins.
Colossians 2:13-14 And you, who were dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made alive together with him, having forgiven us all our trespasses, by canceling the record of debt that stood against us with its legal demands. This he set aside, nailing it to the cross.
Colossians 3:3 For you have died, and your life is hidden with Christ in God.
1 Peter 1:3-5 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! According to his great mercy, he has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, to an inheritance that is imperishable, undefiled, and unfading, kept in heaven for you, who by God's power are being guarded through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.
Hebrews 6:17-20 So when God desired to show more convincingly to the heirs of the promise the unchangeable character of his purpose, he guaranteed it with an oath, so that by two unchangeable things, in which it is impossible for God to lie, we who have fled for refuge might have strong encouragement to hold fast to the hope set before us. We have this as a sure and steadfast anchor of the soul, a hope that enters into the inner place behind the curtain, where Jesus has gone as a forerunner on our behalf, having become a high priest forever after the order of Melchizedek.
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/religion/3156607/posts?page=313#313
2 Corinthians 1:21-22 Now he which stablisheth us with you in Christ, and hath anointed us, is God; Who hath also sealed us, and given the earnest of the Spirit in our hearts.
For which the Greek, from the Byzantine, is:
2Corinthians 1:21-22 ο δε βεβαιων ημας συν υμιν εις χριστον και χρισας ημας θεος ο και σφραγισαμενος ημας και δους τον αρραβωνα του πνευματος εν ταις καρδιαις ημων
The first word in bold above is “bebaion,” the idea of confirmation, frequently used in commercial settings to confirm a bargain. Which of course makes sense of the remaining terms used here, which are also elements of a secured contract.
The second word in bold above is “sphragisamenos,” being sealed is to be marked by the signature, signet ring, or other unique proof of identity, that we belong to God, and this sealing is done by God, who is the one taking action in this verse. We do not and cannot seal ourselves. We do not, by our own powers, have access to God’s “signet ring.”
The third bolded word above is “arrabona,” and indicates what we might loosely refer to as earnest money, but in Hebrew culture conveys more the idea of a pledge of covenant, a security given as a guarantee that the deal will go through, though we only receive part payment at the beginning. See ערב for the related Hebrew stem indicating “pledge.”
If we can lose our salvation though works, then it's not guaranteed.
Amen and Amen! Soli Deo Gloria! What a wonderful truth!
Hoss
Ah.
What?
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