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How Can the (Catholic) Church Teach Angels?
Catholic Answers ^ | March 15, 2015 | Tim Staples

Posted on 05/20/2015 2:41:37 PM PDT by NYer

In John 5:43, Jesus declared:

I have come in my Father’s name, and you do not receive me; if another comes in his own name, him you will receive.

With the advent of Protestantism and the confusion that followed, and that continues to this day, Christians, outside of the Catholic Church, have, at best, an incomplete understanding of the power of these words. When Jesus says, “I come in my father’s name,” he reveals the nature of the authority he possesses from God, the Father.

We use this phrase—at least, the “in the name of” part—similarly in modern parlance in law enforcement when a police officer may say: “Stop in the name of the law!” In this context the idea of “in the name of” meaning “by the authority of” comes across clearly. But because we have thousands of different religious sects today all speaking “in the name of Jesus,” this phrase has lost some of its punch, so to speak, in modern times.

But make no mistake about it: What Jesus was saying in John 5:43 is this: He comes “in the name of the Father,” which means he speaks with the final and infallible authority of his Father. He leaves no back door open. No wiggle room. If you reject him, or his teaching, you reject the Father! That is the kind of authority Jesus is revealed to have received from his Father in Scripture.

What I find fascinating in speaking with non-Catholics about this is almost all of them agree with a Catholic understanding here when it comes to the authority of Jesus. But here is what they almost universally miss: Just about every time the New Testament reveals the radical nature of Christ’s authority, you will find in close proximity Christ then giving a similar authority to the Church.

Matt. 28:18-20:

… All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, to the close of the age (the implication is go with my authority).

John 17:8:

Right after Jesus says in verse 2, “Thou (God, the Father) hast given him (Christ) power over all flesh…” he then says, “For I have given them the words which thou hast given me…”

Luke 22:29:

After saying, “As my Father has appointed a kingdom for me,” he then immediately says, “…so do I appoint for you, that you may eat and drink at my table in my kingdom, and sit on thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel.”

John 20:21-23:

Jesus said to them (the apostles) again, “Peace be with you. As the Father has sent me, even so I send you.” And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and said to them, “Receive the Holy Spirit…”

Luke 10:16:

In the context of Jesus saying “he who rejects me rejects him (the Father) who sent me,” Jesus said, “He who hears you hears me, and he who rejects you rejects me, and he who rejects me rejects him who sent me.”

John 16:26:

And finally, when Jesus speaks of himself speaking with the authority of the Father or “in the name of the Father” in John 5:43, he then prophesies that after the coming of the power of the Holy Spirit, “The hour is coming when I shall no longer speak to you in figures but tell you plainly of the Father. In that day you will ask in my name

Further, we see explicit references in Scripture to the authority of the Church being the final authority given by God to the world.

Matt. 18:15-18:

If your brother sins against you, go and tell him his fault, between you and him alone. If he listens to you, you have gained your brother. But if he does not listen, take one or two others along with you, that every word may be confirmed by the evidence of two or three witnesses. If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church; and if he refuses to listen even to the church, let him be to you as a Gentile and a tax collector. Truly, I say to you, whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.

I Tim. 3:14-15:

I hope to come to you soon, but I am writing these instructions to you so that, if I am delayed, you may know how one ought to behave in the household of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and bulwark (foundation) of the truth.

Notice, this last text is given in the context of St. Paul describing some of the offices of the Church; namely, the bishop and the deacon (i.e. earlier in chapter 3).

St. Paul's Letter to the Ephesians

The above represent very plain texts. And there are many more we could consider. But for our purpose here, consider St. Paul’s letter to the Ephesians. In chapter 1, St. Paul says plainly that the Church is the fullness of Christ in the world today; thus, to reject the Church is to reject Christ:

Eph. 1:20-23:

[God] raised [Christ] from the dead and made him sit at his right hand in the heavenly places, far above all rule and authority and power and dominion, and above every name that is named, not only in this age but also in that which is to come; and he has put all things under his feet and has made him the head over all things for the church, which is his body, the fullness of him who fills all in all.

In chapter 2, St. Paul tells us the Church is the foundation of our faith (specifically, it says "the apostles and prophets" are the foundation, with Jesus Christ "being the cornerstone"), similar to what he said in I Tim. 3:15:

Eph. 2:19-20:

So then you are no longer strangers and sojourners, but you are fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God, built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus himself being the cornerstone.

In chapter 3, St. Paul speaks in the loftiest terms of the nature of the teaching authority of the Church:

Eph. 3:8-10:

To me… this grace was given, to preach to the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ, and to make all men see what is the plan of the mystery hidden for ages in God who created all things; that through the church the manifold wisdom of God might now be made known to the principalities and powers in the heavenly places.

St. Thomas Aquinas speculates as to the truth behind this text in his commentary on Ephesians:

The means through which the manifold wisdom of God is made known to [the angels] is designated by his saying “through the church.”

St. Thomas then explains that the angels are far superior to men on earth, when it comes to knowledge, as are the saints in heaven, I would add, through the beatific knowledge that they possess. However, he explains, it is because of the fact that the Church is the instrument of God that her certain teachings have God as their first principle; hence, the Church can truly be said to “teach angels.” He goes on:

Therefore, it must be asserted that the angels are instructed through the church, that is, through the apostolic preaching… in such a way that they are not taught by the apostles, but in them

... angels know natural things in two ways. They know them in the Word… and they know them in their own proper natures… Further, there exist certain intelligible patterns [operative in] the mysteries of grace which transcend the whole of creation. These intelligible patterns are not impressed on the angelic minds (that would be through the beatific vision) but are hidden in God alone. Thus, the angels do not grasp them in themselves, nor even in God, but only as they unfold in events [which the mysteries] effect.

To put it simply, angels know all they can know of God and their own natures through their perfect natures, the gift of grace, and the beatific vision. So, how could they possibly learn anything? They can learn because when it comes to how God’s grace is going to work in the world of humans, a world alien to them, the angels can and do learn. But as St. Thomas says, this “learning” does not come through the inferior human nature; rather, it comes through the divine gift of God operating in the Church. As St. Paul said in Ephesians 3:10, “through the church, the manifold wisdom of God is made known to the [angels].”

Think about it, folks. If the Church teaches angels who have the beatific vision, how much more do we puny humans need to heed the authority of the Church! Imagine the scene, say, at Vatican II. The bishops of the world were not the only ones gathered for the 21st Ecumenical Council. The angels of God were gathered as well, saying, "What are they going to say next?"

St. Paul then guarantees us (no matter what our Mormon friends may say, who claim “the great apostasy!”) that this Church he is describing will exist “in every generation world without end” in Eph. 3:21.

He then tells us even further that this Church would be characterized by its unity: It would teach:

…one Lord, one faith, one baptism… (Eph. 4:5)

And it would be hierarchical:

Therefore it is said, “When he ascended on high he led a host of captives, and he gave gifts to men.”… And his gifts were that some should be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, some pastors and teachers, for the equipment of the saints, for the work of ministry, for building up the body of Christ, until we all attain to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God (Eph. 4:8, 11-13).

So why did God give us this glorious Church that possesses the authority of Jesus Christ?

So that we may no longer be children, tossed to and fro and carried about with every wind of doctrine… (Eph. 4:14)

The history of Protestantism is one of “children, tossed to and fro and carried about with every wind of doctrine.”

 



TOPICS: Apologetics; Catholic; Theology
KEYWORDS: angels; catholic; catholicanswers; catholicchurch; timstaples
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To: smvoice

I can see it now!

When DWTS has finally run outta steam; then perhaps DWTA can get on the air.


61 posted on 05/20/2015 7:12:13 PM PDT by Elsie ( Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: verga
I did read THE ERRORS you posted, and I am telling you that you are wrong.

Now you've gotten the Lurkers curious.

They'll re-read her post and wonder , "What errors?"

Shouldn't you really point them out and explain WHY you consider them to be errors?

Angels are waiting to learn...

62 posted on 05/20/2015 7:14:11 PM PDT by Elsie ( Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: Lonely Bull

“Does God have feathers?”

Do you have a point? Apparently not.


63 posted on 05/20/2015 7:19:41 PM PDT by vladimir998
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To: Elsie; ebb tide

ebb tide, notice Elsie cannot or will not deal with this:

http://www.cin.org/users/jgallegos/web_aug.htm

He/she keeps posting over-and-over again the same comments from Augustine - all while apparently not knowing - or possibly not caring - that Augustine had a very different belief than the one aspect he/she is presenting.

Remember, as John Henry Newman, a former Protestant who knew Protestantism very well wrote:

“If you would have some direct downright proof that Catholicism is what Protestants make it to be, something which will come up to the mark, you must lie...To Protestantism False Witness is the principle of propagation. There are indeed able men who can make a striking case out of anything or nothing, as great painters give a meaning and a unity to the commonest bush, and pond, and paling and stile: genius can do without facts, as well as create them; but few possess the gift. Taking things as they are, and judging of them by the long run, one may securely say, that the anti-Catholic Tradition could not be kept alive, would die of exhaustion, without a continual supply of fable.” (Lecture 4. True Testimony Insufficient for the Protestant View)


64 posted on 05/20/2015 7:25:15 PM PDT by vladimir998
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To: vladimir998
If you can believe in Jesus rising from the dead, why can you not believe He gave His flesh for men to eat? Logically you can really only answer in a couple of ways - and those ways will always boil down to how you choose to interpret scripture.

If you kept this verse in context you would understand the meaning of what He was saying in John 6.

65 posted on 05/20/2015 7:34:51 PM PDT by ealgeone
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To: NYer
What I find fascinating in speaking with Catholics about this is that they quote verses about the apostles and automatically substitute Church.

Just about every time the New Testament reveals the radical nature of Christ’s authority, you will find in close proximity Christ then giving a similar authority to the Church.

No! The authority is passed to the apostles. The apostles are not the same as the church. Just look at two of the verses you quoted.

Eph. 2: the household of God, built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus himself being the cornerstone.

1 Tim. 3 the household of God, which is the church

So if the household of God is the church and the apostles is synonymous with the church, Eph. 2 would say that the church is built upon the church.

The church is built upon the foundation, the church is not the foundation.

And you've mis-translated 1 Tim. 3. The church is the bulwark of the truth. This has also been translated as buttress. Neither bulwark nor buttress means foundation. Seriously. Finding what you want to find rather than what scripture plainly says.

66 posted on 05/20/2015 7:40:20 PM PDT by Tao Yin
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To: verga
Afraid not verga.

That catholics don't view the OT as actually telling stories of real people and real events but rather view it as symbolic is telling....and sad at the same time.

67 posted on 05/20/2015 8:09:21 PM PDT by ealgeone
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To: vladimir998
“Does God have feathers?”

Do you have a point? Apparently not.

Oh, various Bible passages can be interpreted "literally" as saying that God has feathers, such as what many translations have as Psalm 91:4. Similar passages mention apparent wings and arms.

My point is that at least in my experience, even self-described "literalists" do not interpret everything equally "literally" and freely acknowledge the existence of things like metaphors and other figures of speech. Of course, not everyone will agree on what is more "literal" and what is "not"; I'm not taking any particular side but rather pointing out that much will depend on interpretation. So it is that I'd wondering, for example, how people interpret Ephesians 3:10 and its context.

Maybe I deserved this response because I should've picked a less obscure reference. Such a one isn't too hard to find: hardly anyone removes eyes or extremities despite what Jesus seemingly "commands."

68 posted on 05/20/2015 8:30:04 PM PDT by Lonely Bull ("When he is being rude or mean it drives people _away_ from his confession and _towards_ yours.")
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To: ealgeone

Why are you tellin us that the Old Testament didn’t have real people and that Catholics don’t believe in them?

Why are you telling Catholics what we believe?

You are so mistaken.


69 posted on 05/20/2015 8:37:09 PM PDT by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: ealgeone; verga
**That catholics don't view the OT as actually telling stories of real people and real events but rather view it as symbolic **

Hello, E! We had a similar conversation about symbolism.

The two are not mutually exclusive. The Bible is the living, breathing, dynamic Word of God. What the OT brethren lived and did was true-no matter how implausible it may sometimes seem, but with God, nothing is impossible!

At the same time those people, what they said and did, concerned the Covenant of which Jesus is the fulfillment. Our Lord Himself referred to the sign of Jonah, comparing it to His Death and Rising on the Third Day. There is a true story, maybe one of the strangest in the Bible, but true nonetheless, which was stated also as am allegory by Jesus Himself.

God bless you both!

70 posted on 05/20/2015 8:50:13 PM PDT by Grateful2God (Because no word shall be impossible with God. And Mary said: Behold the handmaid of the Lord...)
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To: Salvation
Why are you tellin us that the Old Testament didn’t have real people and that Catholics don’t believe in them?

Why are you telling Catholics what we believe?

You are so mistaken.

Gee, I don't know....maybe because of stuff like this....

Catholicsm on creation....

God himself created the visible world in all its richness, diversity and order. Scripture presents the work of the Creator symbolically as a succession of six days of divine "work", concluded by the "rest" of the seventh day (CCC 337).

Catholicism on Noah....

Joe Paprocki Answers

The Author : Joe Paprocki Joe Paprocki, D.Min., is National Consultant for Faith Formation at Loyola Press in Chicago. He has over 30 years of experience in pastoral ministry in the Archdiocese of Chicago. Joe is the author of numerous books on pastoral ministry and catechesis, including The Bible Blueprint, Living the Mass, and bestsellers The Catechist's Toolbox and A Well-Built Faith (all from Loyola Press). See more articles by Joe Paprocki (67).

When Scripture says that “God is my rock,” (Psalm 18:2) we are not to believe that God is literally a rock. The image, while not intended to be literal, expresses a truth about God using figurative language – like a rock, God is strong, steadfast, solid, and can be leaned on! Likewise, the story of Noah’s Ark employs a great deal of figurative language to express an absolute truth about God and our relationship with him: when we sin, it is as if we are drowning, however, God will spare us if we live justly as Noah did.

http://bustedhalo.com/questionbox/do-catholics-believe-that-noahs-ark-is-a-factual-event

Catholicism on Jonah....

Catholics are free to understand the story of Jonah and the whale as literal history or as didactic fiction. In Catholicism and Fundamentalism, Karl Keating writes: "The Catholic Church is silent on the proper interpretation of many biblical passages, readers being allowed to accept one of several understandings. Take, as an example, Jonah’s escapade at sea, which readers often find disturbing. Ronald Knox said that ‘no defender of the sense of Scripture ever pretended, surely, that this was a natural event. If it happened, it was certainly a miracle; and not to my mind a more startling miracle than the raising of Lazarus, in which I take it Catholics are certainly bound to believe. Surely what puts one off the story of Jonah is the element of the grotesque that is present in it’ (Ronald Knox and Arnold Lunn, Difficulties, Eyre and Spottiswoode, 109). http://www.catholic.com/quickquestions/is-the-story-of-jonah-and-the-whale-a-myth

Salvation....you should have learned by now that I don't make rash statements about the false teachings of catholicism without having researched the position. Apparently catholics, once again, prove they don't know what their own church teaches.

71 posted on 05/20/2015 9:01:44 PM PDT by ealgeone
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To: ealgeone

Please don’t put all Catholics in a category like this. Aren’t you being judgmental — and besides that — are you mind-reading?


72 posted on 05/20/2015 9:04:13 PM PDT by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: Elsie
Ever hear of Vatican II?
73 posted on 05/20/2015 9:32:49 PM PDT by Grateful2God (Because no word shall be impossible with God. And Mary said: Behold the handmaid of the Lord...)
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To: verga
False dichotomy from a prot, no surprise here.

You are wrong.

Hoss

74 posted on 05/21/2015 2:37:53 AM PDT by HossB86 (Christ, and Him alone.)
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To: Salvation
Why are you telling Catholics what we believe?

You are so mistaken.

Because apparently Catholics have some issues there. Especially since they're taught to believe that they worship the same false god as do Muslims in CCC 841.

I wonder what the angels think of that heresy.

Hoss

75 posted on 05/21/2015 2:44:47 AM PDT by HossB86 (Christ, and Him alone.)
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To: ealgeone
If you can't/don't believe in a literal six-day creation, then how could you believe Jesus rose on the third day?

It's pretty clear that they don't believe it...Impossible for Jesus to have gone into the grave Friday afternoon and raised at sunrise on Sunday morning...Apparently the rising on the 3rd day is just an allegory to them...

And like their Eucharist, it's likely that many don't believe in the Resurrection at all...

They can't believe in a six day creation since that would destroy their belief in evolution...Why they would want to believe evolution instead of the six day creation likely has its roots in paganism...

So of course, to reject the miracle of creation, one would have to reject the other miracles as well...

If I can believe the miracle of the Resurrection, I can certainly believe the O.T. miracles...And why, some might ask??? Because God says so...

76 posted on 05/21/2015 2:50:38 AM PDT by Iscool
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To: vladimir998
To Protestantism False Witness is the principle of propagation.

Anyone with an IQ above room temperature knows this.

77 posted on 05/21/2015 3:04:58 AM PDT by verga (I might as well be playing chess with pigeons,.)
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To: ealgeone; vladimir998; Salvation; Religion Moderator
That catholics don't view the OT as actually telling stories of real people and real events but rather view it as symbolic is telling....and sad at the same time.

Stop telling Catholics what we believe, that is mind reading.

78 posted on 05/21/2015 3:13:35 AM PDT by verga (I might as well be playing chess with pigeons,.)
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To: NYer

A few decades ago, Billy Graham wrote a book on the subject. I believe its title is... “Angels” (go figure!). It’s pretty good, actually.


79 posted on 05/21/2015 3:22:47 AM PDT by MayflowerMadam
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To: ealgeone; verga; Salvation
... are you mind-reading?- sal

Stop telling Catholics what we believe, that is mind reading. - veggie

Ah! The "flailing for something to say" trick, which alleges something never intimated. That seems to be a common plot by some of the Roman Catholic cult herein, these days.

It is a tragedy that none of them disputes the content, but continually lambast the posters. The roman cult must have a good stranglehold on so many, to be able to blind so many eyes to Scriptural truth. Instead, they wish to relinquish faith AND reason and follow blindly down the Hell hole!

Jesus came to save the world, but not all of the world can see His Hands at work...

Romans 8: ///14 For those who are led by the Spirit of God are the children of God. 15 The Spirit you received does not make you slaves, so that you live in fear again; rather, the Spirit you received brought about your adoption to sonship. And by him we cry, “Abba, Father.” 16 The Spirit himself testifies with our spirit that we are God’s children. 17 Now if we are children, then we are heirs—heirs of God and co-heirs with Christ, if indeed we share in his sufferings in order that we may also share in his glory.


80 posted on 05/21/2015 3:26:05 AM PDT by WVKayaker (On Scale of 1 to 5 Palins, How Likely Is Media Assault on Each GOP Candidate?)
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