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How a Protestant spin machine hid the truth about the English Reformation
Telegraph UK blog ^ | Sunday 25 May 2014 | Dominic Selwood

Posted on 05/25/2014 10:52:33 AM PDT by Not gonna take it anymore

. . . . For centuries, the English have been taught that the late medieval Church was superstitious, corrupt, exploitative, and alien. Above all, we were told that King Henry VIII and the people of England despised its popish flummery and primitive rites. England was fed up to the back teeth with the ignorant mumbo-jumbo magicians of the foreign Church, and up and down the country Tudor people preferred plain-speaking, rational men like Wycliffe, Luther, and Calvin. Henry VIII achieved what all sane English and Welsh people had long desired ­– an excuse to break away from an anachronistic subjugation to the ridiculous medieval strictures of the Church.

, . . But the last 30 years have seen a revolution in Reformation research. Leading scholars have started looking behind the pronouncements of the religious revolution’s leaders – Henry VIII, Thomas Cromwell, Thomas Cranmer, Hugh Latimer, Nicholas Ridley – and beyond the parliamentary pronouncements and the great sermons. Instead, they have begun focusing on the records left by ordinary English people. This “bottom up” approach to history has undoubtedly been the most exciting development in historical research in the last 50 years. It has taken us away from what the rulers want us to know, and steered us closer towards what actually happened.

(Excerpt) Read more at blogs.telegraph.co.uk ...


TOPICS: History; Prayer; Religion & Culture; Religion & Politics
KEYWORDS: adultery; churchhistory; churchofengland; divorce; englishreformation; henryviii; reformation; reformation500; scholars
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To: vladimir998
No, I’ll just continue to make the U.S. less Protestant and more orthodox Christian just like Christ would want.

Spoken like a 'true' Son of Thunder!

121 posted on 05/26/2014 4:43:10 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: vladimir998
It had little to do with the confiscation of wealth of Moors or Jews. That wealth didn’t go very far.

Well; when the Libs FINALLY have ALL the power, and they suck the WEALTHY completely dry in THIS country; you'll then see that there WAS enough money to go around 'fairly' and it was the Lib's Manifest Destiny to re-distribute it properly!

122 posted on 05/26/2014 4:45:26 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: ckilmer
Is God sovereign or does man have free will. Both are true but there is tension between them. Try to resolve it either way and there is hell to pay.

Finally!!

Turning the thread from a C vs P food fight; into a good, ol' C vs A one!

123 posted on 05/26/2014 4:47:28 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: Salvation
What we try to do is post the truth so that everyone can be educated by looking at both sides of the coin.

And EVERYONE knows that ONLY Catholics HAVE THE TRUTH!

124 posted on 05/26/2014 4:49:41 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: Salvation
What we try to do is post the truth so that everyone can be educated by looking at both sides of the coin.


Let's try some easy math:


There are approximately 1.2 billion Catholics world wide;

If merely 1% of them  'ask' Mary for help just once each day;

that means that 12 million separate prayers are headed Mary's direction every day.

Given that there are 86,400 seconds per day... (24 hours times 60 minutes times 60 seconds)

...that means that Mary has to handle approximately 139 'requests' per second!

Purty good fer someone NOT 'devine'!

125 posted on 05/26/2014 4:50:12 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: Salvation
Bishop Fulton J. Sheen quotes:
 
 
"A Plea For Intolerance" (1931)
 
Tolerance is an attitude of reasoned patience toward evil ... a forbearance that restrains us from showing anger or inflicting punishment.
 Tolerance applies only to persons ... never to truth.
 
America, it is said, is suffering from intolerance — it is not.
It is suffering from tolerance.
Tolerance of right and wrong, truth and error, virtue and evil, Christ and chaos.
Our country is not nearly so overrun with the bigoted as it is overrun with the broadminded.
 
 

126 posted on 05/26/2014 4:51:34 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: CorporateStepsister
I wonder how different things might have been if Henry VIII had done things differently.

Uh...

DIFFERENT?

127 posted on 05/26/2014 4:52:33 AM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
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To: Alex Murphy

That would make a heck of a sign out in front of the parish!


128 posted on 05/26/2014 5:11:14 AM PDT by Gamecock (#BringTheAdultsBackToDC)
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To: Not gonna take it anymore

I find their statement that Henry VIII as the origin of the English Protestant reformation to be weak. Henry had a part, of course, but he was basically just manipulating law to satisfy his own desires. His motivation wasn’t religious at all. As 2divVet points out, the real match that caused the protestant dissatisfaction to break out into visible flame was Martin Luther. But, there were many instances of dissatisfaction with abuse of religion and authority by the Church. Despite this article’s discounting of Wycliffe’s impact in England, it WAS one of the indications of dissatisfaction. There were others in England and the mainland that pre-dated Luther but were evidence of smoke that eventually burst into flame.

That said, England did have a long history as a Catholic nation, and one would have to be ignorant not to recognize that.

The abuses of both authority and faith were what caused the dissatisfaction that led to the protestant reformation. The former gross entanglement of the church in government is something even the church decries in our era.


129 posted on 05/26/2014 5:13:45 AM PDT by xzins ( Retired Army Chaplain and Proud of It! Those who truly support our troops pray for victory!)
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To: Not gonna take it anymore; 2ndDivisionVet

I find their statement that Henry VIII as the origin of the English Protestant reformation to be weak. Henry had a part, of course, but he was basically just manipulating law to satisfy his own desires. His motivation wasn’t religious at all. As 2divVet points out, the real match that caused the protestant dissatisfaction to break out into visible flame was Martin Luther. But, there were many instances of dissatisfaction with abuse of religion and authority by the Church. Despite this article’s discounting of Wycliffe’s impact in England, it WAS one of the indications of dissatisfaction. There were others in England and the mainland that pre-dated Luther but were evidence of smoke that eventually burst into flame.

That said, England did have a long history as a Catholic nation, and one would have to be ignorant not to recognize that.

The abuses of both authority and faith were what caused the dissatisfaction that led to the protestant reformation. The former gross entanglement of the church in government is something even the church decries in our era.


130 posted on 05/26/2014 5:14:10 AM PDT by xzins ( Retired Army Chaplain and Proud of It! Those who truly support our troops pray for victory!)
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To: ansel12
Catholics and atheists voted for Obama both times, Protestants voted against him, both times.

Wheat and Tares

The Re-formation and Revolution have failed. The moral and social condition of the country is not getting better, it is getting worse.

Historical religious demographics of the United States 1948 - 2011

During this period Protestants went from 69% of Americans to 42%. Catholics remained stable from 22% to 23%. Protesters who had left Protestants to start new denominations went to 10%. Mormons were 2% and Jews fell from 4% to 2%. Those with no religion went from 2% to 13%. Those who declined to designate remained at 3%.

Politics and religion: How religious groups voted

The election of Obama largely fell along racial lines. Since Blacks comprise only about 4% of Catholics in the US, and since they polls apparently did not sample them enough to break that out, how they voted was not stated.

Vote Choice by Religion and Race

Black Protestants/Other Christians are reported to have voted for Obama 95/5, while Hispanic Catholics 75/21. White Protestants/Other were 30/69 while White Catholics were 40/59.

131 posted on 05/26/2014 5:32:58 AM PDT by af_vet_1981 (The bus came by and I got on, That's when it all began)
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To: OneVike
but I also will not sit by and allow anyone to trash my Evangelical faith

Which, precisely, faith is that ?

132 posted on 05/26/2014 5:35:24 AM PDT by af_vet_1981 (The bus came by and I got on, That's when it all began)
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To: Scottishlibertarian
Any move that took us away from the corrupt RC church is good in my book.

There is no dearth of modern movements that can take one away from the holy catholic apostolic faith.

133 posted on 05/26/2014 5:47:59 AM PDT by af_vet_1981 (The bus came by and I got on, That's when it all began)
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To: vladimir998

“And it’s all irrelevant - as research has shown”

Of course it is, to you, Vlad-baby.

Actual students of history would ask the questions - after having sacked Rome and imprisoned the pope just a few years earlier, could this have influenced the pope in any way in treating Henry’s annulment to Charles’ aunt? Of course it would. the pope would have incurred the wrath of Charles V and that is the last thing he wanted to do. Historians clearly acknowledge all of this, had you bothered to read about it.

Irrelevant, indeed. Your gift of missing the obvious is strong here.

“Getting history right is my specialty” How can this be when you are so wrong? This is a laughable claim. When an engineer has to take you to school on history, you cannot claim to be “getting history right”.

“In 1968, for instance, only 338 marriages were annulled in the United States.”

Yes, and they were granted to the modern-day equivalents to Henry VIII, because that’s how Rome works and has always worked, despite claims to the contrary. Some of those annulments were to “Kennedys” no doubt.

“1) the Protestantization of marriage in U.S. culture”

Ah, the old “invent a pejorative”. Catholics don’t have to grant annulments, yet the do in great numbers. It’s to the point where no Catholic marriage is known to be “valid” unless it’s been through (and denied) the annulment process.

Catholics have done this to themselves - so don’t blame Protestants for your own religions behavior.

“because many American Catholics who divorce and want to remarry prefer to marry in the Church.”

....and so it becomes a revenue opportunity for Rome, which fleeces its semi-faithful. They do make quite a bit of money through this selling of sacraments to those willing and able to pay. Why leave cash “on the table” when there is demand for earthly dispensations masquerading as religion.

Catholics do themselves no favors by compromising their religion this way. At least call it what it is and try to save yourselves, and quit making excuses and playing semantic games while milking the Catholic Divorce cow in America.

“The last “central political state in Rome” was the Roman Empire” Nonsense. Rome curried favor with one king versus another well past Henry’s time. Kings sought approval from Rome. It was corrupt politics as this that saw Rome’s influence decline - both in empire and in religion.

“Yes, WWI and WWII were so innovative. Gee, were so fortunate to have had century after century of “innovation” “

You would again deny the obvious - that wars, threats of wars, and competition spur innovation. History has shown this time and again. How is it that this engineer has a much clearer view of this than you, the self-appointed czar of historical fact

“I think that showing that Protestantism is a product of bad people shows what Protestantism is. Christianity is from God. Protestantism was invented on the cloaca and its supporters often acted accordingly.”

Cloaca?

You are certainly a piece of work. The only egg laid was the failure of Rome to staunch it’s own political and religious corruption.

That is why we have Protestantism today. That is why we have the COE and derivatives. Rome was politically equivalent of the Obama administrative. Incompetent and unable to see the value of the religious seat of Christianity over the monetary value of it’s political influence. They blew it. You don’t have to like it, but the reason for the existence of Protestantism is the decide lack of focus on what is right by the Catholic church of the time of Henry and Luther.

Rome blew it. Your interpretation otherwise is something that you pull from your very own cloaca.


134 posted on 05/26/2014 7:21:33 AM PDT by RFEngineer
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To: Elsie

...including the bosses. And without constraints on their power—they will naturally run amok.

Well, it seems that Calvin is getting the credit (blame?), but it was Hobbs who noted that life is ‘nasty, brutish and short’.
.................
the two great gifts of american civilization to the world have been limited government and unlimited resources.


135 posted on 05/26/2014 7:29:00 AM PDT by ckilmer
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To: RFEngineer

To be sure I understand, are you confessing that, aside from the cause of “pornea,” anyone who divorces and marries another is committing adultery, and that adulterers wlll not inherit the kingdom of God ?


136 posted on 05/26/2014 7:52:21 AM PDT by af_vet_1981 (The bus came by and I got on, That's when it all began)
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To: af_vet_1981

You attacked all Evangelicals in your comment.

You will never ever read of me attacking all Catholics as you did Evangelicals.

You need to search your heart and ask yourself why you are so angry towards Christians you do not even know.


137 posted on 05/26/2014 8:50:27 AM PDT by OneVike (I'm just a Christian waiting for a ride home)
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To: OneVike
You attacked all Evangelicals in your comment.

Can you provide the quote where you say I did this and provide the full denominational or sect name which you seek to defend ?

138 posted on 05/26/2014 8:58:13 AM PDT by af_vet_1981 (The bus came by and I got on, That's when it all began)
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To: af_vet_1981

“To be sure I understand, are you confessing that, aside from the cause of “pornea,” anyone who divorces and marries another is committing adultery, and that adulterers wlll not inherit the kingdom of God ?”

I’m not “confessing” anything. If you’re asking me if I think that divorce is a bad thing, I’m agreeing. I don’t think you have to be any particular religion to come to that observation.

I’m leaving the decisions on who inherits the Kingdom of God to God.


139 posted on 05/26/2014 9:04:13 AM PDT by RFEngineer
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To: RFEngineer
I’m not “confessing” anything. If you’re asking me if I think that divorce is a bad thing, I’m agreeing. I don’t think you have to be any particular religion to come to that observation. I’m leaving the decisions on who inherits the Kingdom of God to God.

He already told us in the Scriptures.

140 posted on 05/26/2014 9:10:02 AM PDT by af_vet_1981 (The bus came by and I got on, That's when it all began)
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