Posted on 05/25/2014 10:52:33 AM PDT by Not gonna take it anymore
. . . . For centuries, the English have been taught that the late medieval Church was superstitious, corrupt, exploitative, and alien. Above all, we were told that King Henry VIII and the people of England despised its popish flummery and primitive rites. England was fed up to the back teeth with the ignorant mumbo-jumbo magicians of the foreign Church, and up and down the country Tudor people preferred plain-speaking, rational men like Wycliffe, Luther, and Calvin. Henry VIII achieved what all sane English and Welsh people had long desired – an excuse to break away from an anachronistic subjugation to the ridiculous medieval strictures of the Church.
, . . But the last 30 years have seen a revolution in Reformation research. Leading scholars have started looking behind the pronouncements of the religious revolution’s leaders – Henry VIII, Thomas Cromwell, Thomas Cranmer, Hugh Latimer, Nicholas Ridley – and beyond the parliamentary pronouncements and the great sermons. Instead, they have begun focusing on the records left by ordinary English people. This “bottom up” approach to history has undoubtedly been the most exciting development in historical research in the last 50 years. It has taken us away from what the rulers want us to know, and steered us closer towards what actually happened.
(Excerpt) Read more at blogs.telegraph.co.uk ...
Spoken like a 'true' Son of Thunder!
Well; when the Libs FINALLY have ALL the power, and they suck the WEALTHY completely dry in THIS country; you'll then see that there WAS enough money to go around 'fairly' and it was the Lib's Manifest Destiny to re-distribute it properly!
Finally!!
Turning the thread from a C vs P food fight; into a good, ol' C vs A one!
And EVERYONE knows that ONLY Catholics HAVE THE TRUTH!
Let's try some easy math:
There are approximately 1.2 billion Catholics world wide;
If merely 1% of them 'ask' Mary for help just once each day;
that means that 12 million separate prayers are headed Mary's direction every day.
Given that there are 86,400 seconds per day... (24 hours times 60 minutes times 60 seconds)
...that means that Mary has to handle approximately 139 'requests' per second!
Purty good fer someone NOT 'devine'!
Uh...
DIFFERENT?
That would make a heck of a sign out in front of the parish!
I find their statement that Henry VIII as the origin of the English Protestant reformation to be weak. Henry had a part, of course, but he was basically just manipulating law to satisfy his own desires. His motivation wasn’t religious at all. As 2divVet points out, the real match that caused the protestant dissatisfaction to break out into visible flame was Martin Luther. But, there were many instances of dissatisfaction with abuse of religion and authority by the Church. Despite this article’s discounting of Wycliffe’s impact in England, it WAS one of the indications of dissatisfaction. There were others in England and the mainland that pre-dated Luther but were evidence of smoke that eventually burst into flame.
That said, England did have a long history as a Catholic nation, and one would have to be ignorant not to recognize that.
The abuses of both authority and faith were what caused the dissatisfaction that led to the protestant reformation. The former gross entanglement of the church in government is something even the church decries in our era.
I find their statement that Henry VIII as the origin of the English Protestant reformation to be weak. Henry had a part, of course, but he was basically just manipulating law to satisfy his own desires. His motivation wasn’t religious at all. As 2divVet points out, the real match that caused the protestant dissatisfaction to break out into visible flame was Martin Luther. But, there were many instances of dissatisfaction with abuse of religion and authority by the Church. Despite this article’s discounting of Wycliffe’s impact in England, it WAS one of the indications of dissatisfaction. There were others in England and the mainland that pre-dated Luther but were evidence of smoke that eventually burst into flame.
That said, England did have a long history as a Catholic nation, and one would have to be ignorant not to recognize that.
The abuses of both authority and faith were what caused the dissatisfaction that led to the protestant reformation. The former gross entanglement of the church in government is something even the church decries in our era.
Wheat and Tares
The Re-formation and Revolution have failed. The moral and social condition of the country is not getting better, it is getting worse.
Historical religious demographics of the United States 1948 - 2011
During this period Protestants went from 69% of Americans to 42%. Catholics remained stable from 22% to 23%. Protesters who had left Protestants to start new denominations went to 10%. Mormons were 2% and Jews fell from 4% to 2%. Those with no religion went from 2% to 13%. Those who declined to designate remained at 3%.
Politics and religion: How religious groups voted
The election of Obama largely fell along racial lines. Since Blacks comprise only about 4% of Catholics in the US, and since they polls apparently did not sample them enough to break that out, how they voted was not stated.
Vote Choice by Religion and Race
Black Protestants/Other Christians are reported to have voted for Obama 95/5, while Hispanic Catholics 75/21. White Protestants/Other were 30/69 while White Catholics were 40/59.
Which, precisely, faith is that ?
There is no dearth of modern movements that can take one away from the holy catholic apostolic faith.
“And it’s all irrelevant - as research has shown”
Of course it is, to you, Vlad-baby.
Actual students of history would ask the questions - after having sacked Rome and imprisoned the pope just a few years earlier, could this have influenced the pope in any way in treating Henry’s annulment to Charles’ aunt? Of course it would. the pope would have incurred the wrath of Charles V and that is the last thing he wanted to do. Historians clearly acknowledge all of this, had you bothered to read about it.
Irrelevant, indeed. Your gift of missing the obvious is strong here.
“Getting history right is my specialty” How can this be when you are so wrong? This is a laughable claim. When an engineer has to take you to school on history, you cannot claim to be “getting history right”.
“In 1968, for instance, only 338 marriages were annulled in the United States.”
Yes, and they were granted to the modern-day equivalents to Henry VIII, because that’s how Rome works and has always worked, despite claims to the contrary. Some of those annulments were to “Kennedys” no doubt.
“1) the Protestantization of marriage in U.S. culture”
Ah, the old “invent a pejorative”. Catholics don’t have to grant annulments, yet the do in great numbers. It’s to the point where no Catholic marriage is known to be “valid” unless it’s been through (and denied) the annulment process.
Catholics have done this to themselves - so don’t blame Protestants for your own religions behavior.
“because many American Catholics who divorce and want to remarry prefer to marry in the Church.”
....and so it becomes a revenue opportunity for Rome, which fleeces its semi-faithful. They do make quite a bit of money through this selling of sacraments to those willing and able to pay. Why leave cash “on the table” when there is demand for earthly dispensations masquerading as religion.
Catholics do themselves no favors by compromising their religion this way. At least call it what it is and try to save yourselves, and quit making excuses and playing semantic games while milking the Catholic Divorce cow in America.
“The last “central political state in Rome” was the Roman Empire” Nonsense. Rome curried favor with one king versus another well past Henry’s time. Kings sought approval from Rome. It was corrupt politics as this that saw Rome’s influence decline - both in empire and in religion.
“Yes, WWI and WWII were so innovative. Gee, were so fortunate to have had century after century of “innovation” “
You would again deny the obvious - that wars, threats of wars, and competition spur innovation. History has shown this time and again. How is it that this engineer has a much clearer view of this than you, the self-appointed czar of historical fact
“I think that showing that Protestantism is a product of bad people shows what Protestantism is. Christianity is from God. Protestantism was invented on the cloaca and its supporters often acted accordingly.”
Cloaca?
You are certainly a piece of work. The only egg laid was the failure of Rome to staunch it’s own political and religious corruption.
That is why we have Protestantism today. That is why we have the COE and derivatives. Rome was politically equivalent of the Obama administrative. Incompetent and unable to see the value of the religious seat of Christianity over the monetary value of it’s political influence. They blew it. You don’t have to like it, but the reason for the existence of Protestantism is the decide lack of focus on what is right by the Catholic church of the time of Henry and Luther.
Rome blew it. Your interpretation otherwise is something that you pull from your very own cloaca.
...including the bosses. And without constraints on their power—they will naturally run amok.
Well, it seems that Calvin is getting the credit (blame?), but it was Hobbs who noted that life is ‘nasty, brutish and short’.
.................
the two great gifts of american civilization to the world have been limited government and unlimited resources.
To be sure I understand, are you confessing that, aside from the cause of “pornea,” anyone who divorces and marries another is committing adultery, and that adulterers wlll not inherit the kingdom of God ?
You attacked all Evangelicals in your comment.
You will never ever read of me attacking all Catholics as you did Evangelicals.
You need to search your heart and ask yourself why you are so angry towards Christians you do not even know.
Can you provide the quote where you say I did this and provide the full denominational or sect name which you seek to defend ?
“To be sure I understand, are you confessing that, aside from the cause of “pornea,” anyone who divorces and marries another is committing adultery, and that adulterers wlll not inherit the kingdom of God ?”
I’m not “confessing” anything. If you’re asking me if I think that divorce is a bad thing, I’m agreeing. I don’t think you have to be any particular religion to come to that observation.
I’m leaving the decisions on who inherits the Kingdom of God to God.
He already told us in the Scriptures.
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