Posted on 02/12/2014 6:12:29 AM PST by PhilipFreneau
This is a discussion about the term "elect" or "election" found in the bible. I believe the elect are a combination of the remnant of Israel from the days of Christ and the apostles, and the holy men of old. I base this on several direct scriptural references:
This verse implies Christ is the elect:
"Behold my servant, whom I uphold; mine elect, in whom my soul delighteth; I have put my spirit upon him: he shall bring forth judgment to the Gentiles." (Isa 42:1 KJV)
In these verses Israel or Judah is the elect, but could also be interpreted as Christ:
"For Jacob my servant's sake, and Israel mine elect, I have even called thee by thy name: I have surnamed thee, though thou hast not known me." (Isa 45:4 KJV)
"And I will bring forth a seed out of Jacob, and out of Judah an inheritor of my mountains: and mine elect shall inherit it, and my servants shall dwell there." (Isa 65:9 KJV)
There are many implications, such as:
"In the Lord shall all the seed of Israel be justified, and shall glory." (Isa 45:25 KJV)
"And it shall come to pass in that day, that the remnant of Israel, and such as are escaped of the house of Jacob, shall no more again stay upon him that smote them; but shall stay upon the Lord, the Holy One of Israel, in truth. The remnant shall return, even the remnant of Jacob, unto the mighty God. For though thy people Israel be as the sand of the sea, yet a remnant of them shall return: the consumption decreed shall overflow with righteousness." (Isa 10:20-22 KJV)
"And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be delivered: for in mount Zion and in Jerusalem shall be deliverance, as the Lord hath said, and in the remnant whom the Lord shall call." (Joel 2:32 KJV)
"I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin. God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession to God against Israel saying, Lord, they have killed thy prophets, and digged down thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life. But what saith the answer of God unto him? I have reserved to myself seven thousand men, who have not bowed the knee to the image of Baal. Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace." (Rom 11:1-5 KJV)
Recall that Jesus was only sent to the lost sheep of the house of Israel:
"… I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel." (Mat 15:24 KJV)
And when he sent his disciples out, he sent them to the lost sheep:
"And when he had called unto him his twelve disciples, he gave them power against unclean spirits, to cast them out, and to heal all manner of sickness and all manner of disease… These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not: But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. And as ye go, preach, saying, The kingdom of heaven is at hand." (Mat 10:1, 5-7 KJV)
To add a time context, Jesus said this:
"And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved. But when they persecute you in this city, flee ye into another: for verily I say unto you, Ye shall not have gone over the cities of Israel, till the Son of man be come." (Mat 10:22-23 KJV)
Christ gathered his elect from both heaven and earth:
"And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven." (Mark 13:27 KJV)
The following verses are very telling: they certainly rule me out as one of the elect:
"And shall not God avenge his own elect, which cry day and night unto him, though he bear long with them? I tell you that he will avenge them speedily. Nevertheless when the Son of man cometh, shall he find faith on the earth?" (Luke 18:7-8 KJV)
"The Spirit of the Lord God is upon me; because the Lord hath anointed me to preach good tidings unto the meek; he hath sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to them that are bound; To proclaim the acceptable year of the Lord, and the day of vengeance of our God; to comfort all that mourn;" (Isa 61:1-2 KJV)
Who was Christ sent to avenge? It appears to be the prophets, apostles, saints, and, in general, the blood of the righteous. It also says the vengeance would occur in the generation of those he was talking to:
"Woe unto you [scribes, Pharisees, lawyers!] for ye build the sepulchres of the prophets, and your fathers killed them. Truly ye bear witness that ye allow the deeds of your fathers: for they indeed killed them, and ye build their sepulchres. Therefore also said the wisdom of God, I will send them prophets and apostles, and some of them they shall slay and persecute: That the blood of all the prophets, which was shed from the foundation of the world, may be required of this generation; From the blood of Abel unto the blood of Zacharias which perished between the altar and the temple: verily I say unto you, It shall be required of this generation." (Luke 11:47-51 KJV)
"For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled… Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all be fulfilled." (Luke 21:22, 32 KJV)
Therefore, I conclude the elect were his servants: the prophets, saints, apostles, and holy men of old (for example, the patriarchs;) and they were all gathered together within the generation of Christ and his disciples.
Philip
>>>The very elect are the only ones who can commit the unpardonable sin, by refusing to allow the Holy Spirit to speak as was demonstrated in Acts on Pentecost Day.<<<
I am unsure what you implying; but I will say that the elect were the good guys: the ones circumcised in the spirit.
Philip
>>>In all of my travels, I don’t believe I’ve ever encountered a pelagian postmillennialist before.<<<
Please explain your statement. What does Luke 18:10-14 and Rev 15:4 have to do with pelagianism. Some scripture supporting your conclusions would be appreciated.
Thanks,
Philip
What scriptures are not confined to addressing the pre-70AD church, that I may know which is left to choose from?
See my tagline.
>>>Right - no man is holy and without blame based on Romans.<<<
Amen to that!
>>>The elect while living on this earth are still sinners. We should put our trust and faith in Jesus Christ and not try to judge who the elect are.<<<
From what I have read, the concept of “elect” began with Jacob (Israel), and was passed on to his seed, Christ. How the others fit in is the purpose of this thread.
Philip
>>>What scriptures are not confined to addressing the pre-70AD church, that I may know which is left to choose from?<<<
You tell us. Any scriptures supporting any doctrine is permissible on an Ecumenical thread.
Philip
>>>See my tagline.<<<
Okay, I saw it.
Philip
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Where does it say that? I recall Jesus saying the contrary:
"While he yet talked to the people, behold, his mother and his brethren stood without, desiring to speak with him. Then one said unto him, Behold, thy mother and thy brethren stand without, desiring to speak with thee. But he answered and said unto him that told him, Who is my mother? and who are my brethren? And he stretched forth his hand toward his disciples, and said, Behold my mother and my brethren! For whosoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother." (Mat 12:46-50 KJV)
Philip
The Catholic Bible (New American Bible) also disagrees:
"While he was still speaking to the crowds, his mother and his brothers appeared outside, wishing to speak with him. (Someone told him, "Your mother and your brothers are standing outside, asking to speak with you.") But he said in reply to the one who told him, "Who is my mother? Who are my brothers?" And stretching out his hand toward his disciples, he said, "Here are my mother and my brothers. For whoever does the will of my heavenly Father is my brother, and sister, and mother."" (Mat 12:46-50 NAB)
Philip
“Paul may be referring to all of the elect; or only to those whom Christ chose to serve him during and immediately after his ministry: those who first trusted in him.
In any case, who do you know who is holy and without blame? I don’t know anyone that fits both of those categories.”
By definition, every Christian is the elect, since without being chosen, it is impossible to even believe in Jesus Christ with true faith, and all those who are given by the Father to the Son come to the Son infallibly, and will be saved:
First:
Joh 6:37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.
Second:
“But there are some of you who do not believe.” (For Jesus knew from the beginning who those were who did not believe, and who it was who would betray him.) And he said, “This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father.”
(Joh 6:64-65)
Without the positive act of the Father, there are no believers, there can be no believers (save false ones), and we are all damned.
How do you explain this scripture in the context of your opinion:
"Behold my servant, whom I uphold; mine elect, in whom my soul delighteth; I have put my spirit upon him: he shall bring forth judgment to the Gentiles." (Isa 42:1 KJV)
>>>First: Joh 6:37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.<<<
This is the context:
"All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out. For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me. And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day." (John 6:37-39 KJV)
I am fine that statement, as I am with any of God's Word; but the particular phraseology omits any possibility of a so-called pre-trib rapture, unless:
1. those that who will be raised up on the last day are unworthy to partake in the earlier rapture.
2. there will be more than one last day.
3. the last day is a very long day.
I personally believe Jesus was referring to the last day of the old covenant age around AD70.
Jesus later clarified that "all the Father gave him" were the disciples: his hand-picked servants while he was on earth:
"I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine. And all mine are thine, and thine are mine; and I am glorified in them. And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are. While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled." (John 17:9-12 KJV)
"Jesus answered, I have told you that I am he: if therefore ye seek me, let these go their way: That the saying might be fulfilled, which he spake, Of them which thou gavest me have I lost none." (John 18:8-9 KJV)
>>> Second: “But there are some of you who do not believe.” (For Jesus knew from the beginning who those were who did not believe, and who it was who would betray him.) And he said, “This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father.” (Joh 6:64-65)<<<
That can be taken in all sorts of different directions, for example, how would you interpret this series:
"No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day." (John 6:44 KJV)
"And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me." (John 12:32 KJV)
"And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:" (John 3:14 KJV)
"… he that hath seen me hath seen the Father" (John 14:9 KJV)
"I and my Father are one." (John 10:30 KJV)
So, do these passages say that Jesus, the Father, draws all men unto himself, and casts none out?
>>>Without the positive act of the Father, there are no believers, there can be no believers (save false ones), and we are all damned.<<<
That is exactly what Paul wrote:
"For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher? And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!" (Rom 10:13-15 KJV)
Philip
Hello,
Can you tell me if we are not the elect, what happened to them?
Thanks,
RWL
Isaiah answered a question with:
“Here am I; send me.”
But I think that GOD was wanting Someone with just a bit more gravitas.
I believe they became these:
"And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads." (Revelation 14:1)
John did not specifically state where the 144,000 were located (heaven or earth,) but he did state they were "redeemed from the earth," and were “singing before the throne:”
"And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth." (Revelation 14:3)
Mount Sion is referenced several times in the New Testament, with this as the likely context:
"But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels, To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect, And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant..." (Hebrews 12:22-24)
The time context is present tense; therefore, mount Sion is a heavenly place where we find the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem. The heavenly Jerusalem is also referred to in the Revelation as the "holy city, New Jerusalem;" the "beloved city;" and "the bride, the Lamb's wife." It is also referred to in the above passage as the Church of the firstborn.
New Jerusalem, as described in the Revelation, has the apostles and the twelve tribes as the names on the foundations and gates of the holy city, respectively:
"And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God... And had a wall great and high, and had twelve gates, and at the gates twelve angels, and names written thereon, which are the names of the twelve tribes of the children of Israel… And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and in them the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb." (Rev 21:10, 12,14 KJV)
With that context in mind, the following passages further identify the heavenly mount Sion:
"Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ. Wherefore also it is contained in the scripture, Behold, I lay in Sion a chief corner stone, elect, precious: and he that believeth on him shall not be confounded. Unto you therefore which believe he is precious: but unto them which be disobedient, the stone which the builders disallowed, the same is made the head of the corner, And a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offence, even to them which stumble at the word, being disobedient: whereunto also they were appointed. But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light;” (1 Peter 2:5-9 )
"For through him we [Jews and Gentiles] both have access by one Spirit unto the Father. Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God; And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone; In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord: In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit." (Ephesians 2:18-22)
We see in those epistles the heavenly mount Sion is also the location of the holy temple, which was built upon the foundation of the holy apostles and prophets, with Jesus Christ the chief cornerstone of the holy temple, and with Christians forming part of the building and framework. The time context is also present tense.
Note in the last passage that the foundations of the holy temple are the apostles and prophets. Note also in the last sentence of the first passage that Peter refers to an old Mosaic definition of Israel: a holy nation and a peculiar people:
"For thou art an holy people unto the Lord thy God, and the Lord hath chosen thee to be a peculiar people unto himself, above all the nations that are upon the earth." (Deu 14:2 KJV)
Other references to the holy temple in this context include:
". . . the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are." (1 Cor 3:17)
"The Lord is in his holy temple, the Lord's throne is in heaven . . ." (Psalms 11:4)
"Except the Lord build the house, they labour in vain that build it. . ." (Psalms 127:1)
". . . Behold the man whose name is The Branch; and he shall grow up out of his place, and he shall build the temple of the Lord: Even he shall build the temple of the Lord; and he shall bear the glory, and shall sit and rule upon his throne; and he shall be a priest upon his throne: and the counsel of peace shall be between them both." (Zechariah 6:12-13)
The last passage needs some clarification. David made it clear in Psalms 11:4 that the “Lord’s throne is in heaven.” Therefore, when the Lord “rules upon his throne” it is from his throne in heaven.
Note in the passage from Zechariah that Jesus (the "Branch") builds the temple and rules from his throne, but also serves as a priest upon his throne, not in a temple.
This clarifying statement from the Revelation refers to the holy city, New Jerusalem:
“And I saw no temple therein: for the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple of it.” (Rev 21:22)
And recall these companion passages:
“And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.” (Revelation 21:1)
“… ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.” (2 Corinthians 6:16)
Therefore, it is safe to conclude that both the Lord’s throne and holy temple are in heaven and his holy temple consists of, at least in part, you and me.
The following two verses clarify Christ’s role as a priest:
"As [God] saith also in another place, Thou [Christ] art a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec." (Hebrews 5:6. The other place is Psalms 110:3)
Christ serves as High Priest in this manner:
"But Christ being come an high priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands. . ." (Hebrews 9:11)
That verse continues the verification that the temple is a heavenly, not earthly, entity.
So, who are the 144,000? I believe they serve in the holy temple as priests to the high priest, Jesus Christ. But first:
"These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb. And in their mouth was found no guile: for they are without fault before the throne of God." (Rev 14:4 KJV)
Recall that Paul wrote the chosen ones were blameless and holy:
"According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love…" (Eph 1:4 KJV)
Now look at the other two highlights: firstfruits and redeemed. If they are firstfruits and redeemed, then it is safe to assume they were part of the first resurrection:
"Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years." (Revelation 20:6)
"And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years." (Revelation 20:4)
Recall who was to receive the judgement over the twelve tribes:
"And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel." (Matthew 19:28)
Okay, so we have established that some in the first resurrection were the disciples. It does not say if there are other thrones for judgement, but we can assume there are at least some, for the Gentiles. And all are listed as priests, which brings us back to the holy priesthood Peter spoke of in 1 Peter 2, which is Israel. In this case, it would most likely include only the faithful remnant and the holy men of old.
We know from previous passages that the prophets serve as foundations of the holy temple. There is also this:
"And I say unto you, That many shall come from the east and west, and shall sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, in the kingdom of heaven." (Matthew 8:11-12)
One piece of the puzzle I have been unable to resolve is this:
"These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins… " (Rev 14:4 KJV)
How do Moses and the Patriarchs fit in into that part of the puzzle? We know they were married, and Jesus said this about marriage in that age:
"The children of this world marry, and are given in marriage: But they which shall be accounted worthy to obtain that world, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry, nor are given in marriage: Neither can they die any more: for they are equal unto the angels; and are the children of God, being the children of the resurrection." (Luke 20:34-36 KJV)
Anyway, I will leave that for another day, or maybe someone else will volunteer to explain it.
Philip
>>>But I think that GOD was wanting Someone with just a bit more gravitas.<<<
LOL! I never thought about it like that.
“How do you explain this scripture in the context of your opinion:
“Behold my servant, whom I uphold; mine elect, in whom my soul delighteth; I have put my spirit upon him: he shall bring forth judgment to the Gentiles.” (Isa 42:1 KJV)”
What, exactly, do you want me to explain? You might as well quote a random verse at me next. Though, maybe, this is the random verse. You should probably explain how this verse supposedly ruins my alleged “opinion,” and then, when I know what you think it means, I can reply to it.
“I am fine that statement, as I am with any of God’s Word; but the particular phraseology omits any possibility of a so-called pre-trib rapture, unless:”
What the heck are you talking about? When did I mention a Pre-trib rapture? And how do you get that out of John 6?
I quoted that verse to show that:
ALL that the Father gives to the Son, do come to the Son.
And I used the second verse to show, though I didn’t bother to explain it, that to “come” is the same as “believing,” since those who do not believe do not come to the Son, since it was not given to them to believe.
“Jesus later clarified that “all the Father gave him” were the disciples: his hand-picked servants while he was on earth:”
If that’s the case, then all the people written to by the Apostles were already converted by Christ, and were His desciples presently, prior to His crucifixion:
1Pe 1:1 Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to the strangers scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia,
1Pe 1:2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.
And Christ here would be either lying, or delusional:
Joh_11:52 And not for that nation only, but that also he should gather together in one the children of God that were scattered abroad.
Joh_10:16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.
“That can be taken in all sorts of different directions, for example, how would you interpret this series:”
If you can actually take it in different directions, why do you immediately fail to do so? Give your interpretation of the verse first, and then I’ll engage you on the rest.
There is no need to go ballistic. I will explain. This is the verse in question:
“Behold my servant, whom I uphold; mine elect, in whom my soul delighteth; I have put my spirit upon him: he shall bring forth judgment to the Gentiles.” (Isa 42:1 KJV)”
What the verse says is, His elect is Jesus. Not you, and not me, but Jesus.
Now Jesus, being God the Father, appears to have determined that those he and his disciples were to gather were also to be the elect, similar to the notion that we are children of Abraham simply by our faith in Christ. But the elect were all from the twelve tribes of Israel: the Lost Sheep, if you will--the ones Jesus said he was sent exclusively to gather--and he resurrected them at the end of the age in the first resurrection that occurred in AD70, during the same generation that he prophesied in Matthew and Mark. This is from Mark:
"And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory. And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven… Verily I say unto you, that this generation shall not pass, till all these things be done " (Mark 13:26-27, 30 KJV)
That first resurrection was the resurrection Paul and the other apostles were anticipating. Notice in the following, heavily misused, passage, that Paul was even expecting that he might still be alive! He almost was:
"But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. Wherefore comfort one another with these words." (1 Th 4:13-18 KJV)
Those of the first resurrection were the elect. They are the ones who Paul said were holy and without blame (Eph 1:4-12.) They were the chosen ones from all the tribes of Israel that were to serve as priests in the holy temple(Rev 20:6.) They were the ones both Moses and Peter spake of:
"For thou art an holy people unto the Lord thy God, and the Lord hath chosen thee to be a peculiar people unto himself, above all the nations that are upon the earth." (Deu 14:2 KJV)
"But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light;" (1 Pet 2:9 KJV)
The chosen generation was that generation: the generation of Christ and his disciples. I thank God for all their sacrifices that by them they have helped guide us into His marvellous light.
Philip
Heck, huh? LOL! This is the passage in question:
"All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out. For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me. And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day." (John 6:37-39 KJV)
I mentioned the pretrib rapture as an aside, to demonstrate how a literal interpretation of the verse you quoted precludes a pretrib rapture. My exact words, were:
"… the particular phraseology omits any possibility of a so-called pre-trib rapture, unless:"
1. those that who will be raised up on the last day are unworthy to partake in the earlier rapture.
2. there will be more than one last day.
3. the last day is a very long day.
Those conditions stand, unless you have more to add. If you are not a pre-tribber, then why all the fuss?
Philip
You: >>If that’s the case, then all the people written to by the Apostles were already converted by Christ, and were His desciples presently, prior to His crucifixion:<<
I cannot interpret that statement. Would you please restate.
I will make a general statement, and that is, his disciples were the ones "given" to Jesus while he was on earth. Others that came to him while he was on earth were "drawn" (not "given by the Father") by seeing his miracles or hearing his Word; or, in the case of the "seventy" that he sent out to the Lost Sheep, Jesus personally appointed them. Later, after his resurrection, Paul and others were added to the fold. Please read carefully.
"I have manifested thy name unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest them me; and they have kept thy word. Now they have known that all things whatsoever thou hast given me are of thee. For I have given unto them the words which thou gavest me; and they have received them, and have known surely that I came out from thee, and they have believed that thou didst send me. I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine. And all mine are thine, and thine are mine; and I am glorified in them. And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are. While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled." (John 17:6-12 KJV)
Those given, plus the appointed, plus the others that were drawn to Jesus, were (or, will be) raised up on the "Last Day:"
"No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day. It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me" (John 6:44 KJV)
Now all we have to figure out is when the last day is! Or, as John Otis phrases a question in his online seminar:
"I want you to put on your thinking caps: How many days will there be after the last day?"
LOL! I believe the "last day" was the end of the old covenant age, and Jesus was talking about drawing men to him from that age.
Philip
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