Are you (Catholics) Saved?

Orbis ^ | May 4, 2013

[boatbums]

But the “fruits” they demand are different and carnal in nature. This is the same demand made by many other religions, especially the cults with a strong church hierarchy. “Fruits” are redefined as obedience to structures and men in authority.

That is exactly how it works in the Catholic Church. The command to "believe" in Jesus Christ for salvation is defined as believing in everything the Catholic Church declares must be believed in order to be "in communion" with the Church. Only those who are in communion with the Church (the ONE, TRUE church that Jesus established at Pentecost, according to them) can merit eternal life. Slowly, through the centuries, this rule of faith has expanded to include doctrines not even heard of in the Apostles' time nor even the first several centuries after their deaths.

You definitely described the point that, for Catholicism, the only fruit being inspected is that which they decide IS fruit (i.e., going to Mass, Confession, Penance, corporal and spiritual works of mercy, etc.). It's only been in the last century that the hierarchy has acquiesced to the truth that Christians exist in other faith "traditions" besides Catholicism and even that is disputed by the more traditional Catholics, who reject Vatican II, or at least the interpretation of it. This exclusivity is not Scriptural nor does it honor Jesus Christ.

[Elsie]

It was careful study of the Bible that got me back into the Catholic Church, that is right I read the Bible and it made me CATHOLIC again. How do you explain that?

How?

How would we KNOW; without you telling us?

Mindreading is frowned upon here.

...of the Bible ...

watch out! the Anti sola folks will be on you!

[Natural Law]

"How?"

John 8:32

[Natural Law]

"The command to "believe" in Jesus Christ for salvation is defined as believing in everything the Catholic Church declares must be believed in order to be "in communion" with the Church."

Ultimately, it comes down to authority. Catholics believe in the authority of the Paraclete, exercised through the Magisterium, you don't. Protestantism ascribes to itself the abilities to interpret Scripture that it denies is possible in the person of the Catholic Episcopacy. All other arguments about interpretation are simply Spackle and paint over that fundamental issue.

Seriously, do you really hope to influence Catholics to cross the Tiber by exchanging an infallible teaching source for a fallible one or is your argument only to exchange one fallible source for another fallible source? Or worse, do you expect everyone to look into their mirrors and honestly claim that in matters of faith and morals each possesses an infallible ability to interpret Scripture and that all others who differ from us is more fallible so that they alone in the universe, possess the complete Truth?

Peace be with you.

[tjd1454]

Can we MORMONs get in on this, too? --MormonDude(We have the WHOLE truth...)

Mormonism rejects cardinal Christian doctrines, including the Trinity, and thus there is no basis for Christian unity: "But even if we, or an angel from heaven, should preach to you a gospel contrary to what we have preached to you, he is to be accursed!"

Note the reference to an "angel from heaven" - which applies specifically to the claims of Mormonism.

That being said, I am happy for any and all support for pro-family issues, and appreciate the LDS emphasis upon conservative values.

[Iscool]

I have a hard time believing you, Dr. Hahn a a Ph.D. and has spent more time reading and studying the Bible than you have thought of doing. You make things up out of whole clothe and expect us to believe you. Sorry sport it's not going to happen.

You don't have to believe me...Get Hahn on Youtube and crack open a bible...

[tjd1454]

Our faith and mindset must be one of dependence on God for our salvation, not giving in to that lie from our flesh which denies our utter inability and depravity.

Agree.

I have absolutely no respect for (the Catholic Church)

I am sorry that you have had a negative experience where you are in Texas. However, it is a mistake to universalize our particular experience. For example, recently someone spoke to me about their grudge against "organized religion" because of negative experiences in a conservative Protestant denomination.

My advice to him, and to you, is not to "throw out the baby with the bathwater." By such reasoning every church and denomination could be condemned, for each one is composed of sinful, fallible men & women.

[boatbums]

Is protestant Bible teaching so defective that it forces people to become Catholic?

Is Catholic Bible teaching so defective that it forces people to leave the Catholic Church for a more true Christianity? YES! Interesting that you failed to count all the millions of pastors who attended seminaries, lay people who went to Bible colleges and former Catholics who are now non-Catholic Christians.

[Salvation]

You are familiar with a Baptism of Water.

You may not be familiar with a Baptism of Desire.

You also may not be familiar with a Baptism of Blood.

You may want to do some additional studying before you posot nonsensical (in my opinion) things like what you posted here — only partially true.

[boatbums]

As a former Catholic and now a Christian, who graduated from a Bible college, I can say without equivocation that I would NEVER return to the Catholic Church. Should things ever return to the days where the Catholic Church has the temporal power to force conversion to them under threat of death, I would be a martyr. I simply cannot imagine going from having the assurance of my salvation back to a religion that only semi-promises God's grace will “help” to get me to heaven as long as I do my part and which really places the burden on me to merit salvation by doing works in order to keep that grace.

[Natural Law]

"I simply cannot imagine going from having the assurance of my salvation back to a religion that only semi-promises God's grace will “help” to get me to heaven as long as I do my part and which really places the burden on me to merit salvation by doing works in order to keep that grace."

I suppose that there is an attractiveness for some to choose a belief system that permits one to declare oneself saved, put ones feet up, ignore the call to charity and beatitude, surrender to concupiscence, and coasting into heaven. After all, it permits one to repeatedly lie and misrepresent other believers and belief systems with absolutely no consequences. What a fool and dupe Mother Teresa was. [sarc]

[verga]

Izzy Izzy Izzy, I read the Bible every day, some days I even read it (NT) in the original Greek.

[verga]

Well said, saidly it will be wasted on thsoe that need it most.

[Elsie]

Are you verga’s agent?

[boatbums]

I suppose that there is an attractiveness for some to choose a belief system that permits one to declare oneself saved, put ones feet up, ignore the call to charity and beatitude, surrender to concupiscence, and coasting into heaven. After all, it permits one to repeatedly lie and misrepresent other believers and belief systems with absolutely no consequences. What a fool and dupe Mother Teresa was. [sarc]

This so-called "belief system" you speak of is one that is foreign to me. No genuine Christian I have ever known imagines that they are saved so that they can ignore the commandments of Christ and live as he pleases nor have I ever heard any pastor preach such a Gospel. I suppose that some religious partisans think they must invent this bugaboo in order to present their own system as one that is far superior to all others. They repeatedly lie and misrepresent the faith of other believers in order to feel secure in their own. As Christians, we have the sacred Scriptures, that together with the guidance and teaching of the indwelling Holy Spirit allow us to know the truths God has revealed to us. This revelation and its truths are not the sole property of one religious tradition but it is given to the WHOLE Body of Christ so that we may believe in the only begotten Son of God and that we can know we have eternal life.

[Iscool]

As a former Catholic and now a Christian, who graduated from a Bible college, I can say without equivocation that I would NEVER return to the Catholic Church. Should things ever return to the days where the Catholic Church has the temporal power to force conversion to them under threat of death, I would be a martyr. I simply cannot imagine going from having the assurance of my salvation back to a religion that only semi-promises God's grace will “help” to get me to heaven as long as I do my part and which really places the burden on me to merit salvation by doing works in order to keep that grace.

Exactly...And as I stated, I don't believe a blood bought, born again Christian could turn to the Catholic religion...I can only assume that these Protestant preachers who moved to the Catholic religion were never saved as Protestants...And I can't imagine how they then could be saved as Catholics...But then they admit they can't be saved until after they are dead and judged...

[verga]

*Snerk* Some one isn’t reading his Bible, but we knew that already.

[Craftmore]

What part wasnt true?I remember very well catholic members of my community and my own family members being asked to pay for special mass to get thier family members out of purgatory.Or paying to have miscarried children or dead infants prayed out of limbo.Even after asking family members and friends to chip in to help pay for the special mass the priest still wouldnt say if the person made it into heaven and would only ask that more mass be held when they could afford it.
Ive seen my friends and family pray to Mary and the saints,Ive seen then buy statues from the catholic gift shop and told how to display them for good luck and blessings.
So what part of what I said wasnt true?

[Elsie]

As Christians, we have the sacred Scriptures...

INDEED!

Whenever 'tradition' is mentioned in Scripture; it doesn't get very high ratings.

---

However...

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NIV Matthew 2:5
"In Bethlehem in Judea," they replied, "for this is what the prophet has written:

NIV Matthew 4:1-11
1. Then Jesus was led by the Spirit into the desert to be tempted by the devil.
2. After fasting forty days and forty nights, he was hungry.
3. The tempter came to him and said, "If you are the Son of God, tell these stones to become bread."
4. Jesus answered, "It is written: `Man does not live on bread alone, but on every word that comes from the mouth of God.' "
5. Then the devil took him to the holy city and had him stand on the highest point of the temple.
6. "If you are the Son of God," he said, "throw yourself down. For it is written: "`He will command his angels concerning you, and they will lift you up in their hands, so that you will not strike your foot against a stone.' "
7. Jesus answered him, "It is also written: `Do not put the Lord your God to the test.' "
8. Again, the devil took him to a very high mountain and showed him all the kingdoms of the world and their splendor.
9. "All this I will give you," he said, "if you will bow down and worship me."
10. Jesus said to him, "Away from me, Satan! For it is written: `Worship the Lord your God, and serve him only.' "
11. Then the devil left him, and angels came and attended him.

NIV Matthew 11:10
This is the one about whom it is written: "`I will send my messenger ahead of you, who will prepare your way before you.'

NIV Matthew 21:13
"It is written," he said to them, "`My house will be called a house of prayer,' but you are making it a `den of robbers.' "

NIV Matthew 26:24
The Son of Man will go just as it is written about him.

NIV Matthew 26:31
Then Jesus told them, "This very night you will all fall away on account of me, for it is written: "`I will strike the shepherd, and the sheep of the flock will be scattered.'

NIV Mark 7:6-7
6. He replied, "Isaiah was right when he prophesied about you hypocrites; as it is written: "`These people honor me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me.
7. They worship me in vain; their teachings are but rules taught by men.'

NIV Mark 9:11-13
11. And they asked him, "Why do the teachers of the law say that Elijah must come first?"
12. Jesus replied, "To be sure, Elijah does come first, and restores all things. Why then is it written that the Son of Man must suffer much and be rejected?
13. But I tell you, Elijah has come, and they have done to him everything they wished, just as it is written about him."

NIV Mark 11:17
And as he taught them, he said, "Is it not written: "`My house will be called a house of prayer for all nations' ? But you have made it `a den of robbers.' "

NIV Mark 14:27
"You will all fall away," Jesus told them, "for it is written: "`I will strike the shepherd, and the sheep will be scattered.'

NIV Luke 1:1-4
1. Many have undertaken to draw up an account of the things that have been fulfilled among us,
2. just as they were handed down to us by those who from the first were eyewitnesses and servants of the word.
3. Therefore, since I myself have carefully investigated everything from the beginning, it seemed good also to me to write an orderly account for you, most excellent Theophilus,
4. so that you may know the certainty of the things you have been taught.

NIV Luke 4:17-19
17. The scroll of the prophet Isaiah was handed to him. Unrolling it, he found the place where it is written:
18. "The Spirit of the Lord is on me, because he has anointed me to preach good news to the poor. He has sent me to proclaim freedom for the prisoners and recovery of sight for the blind, to release the oppressed,
19. to proclaim the year of the Lord's favor."

NIV Luke 7:27
This is the one about whom it is written: "`I will send my messenger ahead of you, who will prepare your way before you.'

NIV Luke 10:26
"What is written in the Law?" he replied. "How do you read it?"

NIV Luke 18:31-33
31. Jesus took the Twelve aside and told them, "We are going up to Jerusalem, and everything that is written by the prophets about the Son of Man will be fulfilled.
32. He will be handed over to the Gentiles. They will mock him, insult him, spit on him, flog him and kill him.
33. On the third day he will rise again."

NIV Luke 20:17-18
17. Jesus looked directly at them and asked, "Then what is the meaning of that which is written: "`The stone the builders rejected has become the capstone ' ?
18. Everyone who falls on that stone will be broken to pieces, but he on whom it falls will be crushed."

NIV Luke 21:22
For this is the time of punishment in fulfillment of all that has been written.

NIV Luke 22:37
It is written: `And he was numbered with the transgressors' ; and I tell you that this must be fulfilled in me. Yes, what is written about me is reaching its fulfillment."

NIV Luke 24:44-47
44. He said to them, "This is what I told you while I was still with you: Everything must be fulfilled that is written about me in the Law of Moses, the Prophets and the Psalms."
45. Then he opened their minds so they could understand the Scriptures.
46. He told them, "This is what is written: The Christ will suffer and rise from the dead on the third day,
47. and repentance and forgiveness of sins will be preached in his name to all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.

NIV John 2:17
His disciples remembered that it is written: "Zeal for your house will consume me."

 

NIV John 6:31
Our forefathers ate the manna in the desert; as it is written: `He gave them bread from heaven to eat.' "

NIV John 6:45
It is written in the Prophets: `They will all be taught by God.' Everyone who listens to the Father and learns from him comes to me.

NIV John 12:14-16
14. Jesus found a young donkey and sat upon it, as it is written,
15. "Do not be afraid, O Daughter of Zion; see, your king is coming, seated on a donkey's colt."
16. At first his disciples did not understand all this. Only after Jesus was glorified did they realize that these things had been written about him and that they had done these things to him.

NIV John 15:25
But this is to fulfill what is written in their Law: `They hated me without reason.'

NIV John 20:30-31
30. Jesus did many other miraculous signs in the presence of his disciples, which are not recorded in this book.
31. But these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name.

NIV Acts 1:20
"For," said Peter, "it is written in the book of Psalms, "`May his place be deserted; let there be no one to dwell in it,' and, "`May another take his place of leadership.'

NIV Acts 7:42
But God turned away and gave them over to the worship of the heavenly bodies. This agrees with what is written in the book of the prophets: "`Did you bring me sacrifices and offerings forty years in the desert, O house of Israel?

NIV Acts 13:29
When they had carried out all that was written about him, they took him down from the tree and laid him in a tomb.

NIV Acts 13:32-33
32. "We tell you the good news: What God promised our fathers
33. he has fulfilled for us, their children, by raising up Jesus. As it is written in the second Psalm: "`You are my Son; today I have become your Father. '

NIV Acts 15:15-18
15. The words of the prophets are in agreement with this, as it is written:
16. "`After this I will return and rebuild David's fallen tent. Its ruins I will rebuild, and I will restore it,
17. that the remnant of men may seek the Lord, and all the Gentiles who bear my name, says the Lord, who does these things'
18. that have been known for ages.

NIV Acts 23:5
Paul replied, "Brothers, I did not realize that he was the high priest; for it is written: `Do not speak evil about the ruler of your people.' "

NIV Acts 24:14
However, I admit that I worship the God of our fathers as a follower of the Way, which they call a sect. I believe everything that agrees with the Law and that is written in the Prophets,
and I have the same hope in God as these men, that there will be a resurrection of both the righteous and the wicked.

NIV Romans 1:17
For in the gospel a righteousness from God is revealed, a righteousness that is by faith from first to last, just as it is written: "The righteous will live by faith."

NIV Romans 2:24
As it is written: "God's name is blasphemed among the Gentiles because of you."

NIV Romans 3:4
Not at all! Let God be true, and every man a liar. As it is written: "So that you may be proved right when you speak and prevail when you judge."

NIV Romans 3:10-12
10. As it is written: "There is no one righteous, not even one;
11. there is no one who understands, no one who seeks God.
12. All have turned away, they have together become worthless; there is no one who does good, not even one."

NIV Romans 4:17
As it is written: "I have made you a father of many nations." He is our father in the sight of God, in whom he believed--the God who gives life to the dead and calls things that are not as though they were.

NIV Romans 4:23-24
23. The words "it was credited to him" were written not for him alone,
24. but also for us, to whom God will credit righteousness--for us who believe in him who raised Jesus our Lord from the dead.

NIV Romans 8:36
As it is written: "For your sake we face death all day long; we are considered as sheep to be slaughtered."

NIV Romans 9:13
Just as it is written: "Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated."

NIV Romans 9:33
As it is written: "See, I lay in Zion a stone that causes men to stumble and a rock that makes them fall, and the one who trusts in him will never be put to shame."

NIV Romans 10:15
And how can they preach unless they are sent? As it is written, "How beautiful are the feet of those who bring good news!"

NIV Romans 11:7-10
7. What then? What Israel sought so earnestly it did not obtain, but the elect did. The others were hardened,
8. as it is written: "God gave them a spirit of stupor, eyes so that they could not see and ears so that they could not hear, to this very day."
9. And David says: "May their table become a snare and a trap, a stumbling block and a retribution for them.
10. May their eyes be darkened so they cannot see, and their backs be bent forever."

NIV Romans 11:26-27
26. And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written: "The deliverer will come from Zion; he will turn godlessness away from Jacob.
27. And this is my covenant with them when I take away their sins."

NIV Romans 12:19
Do not take revenge, my friends, but leave room for God's wrath, for it is written: "It is mine to avenge; I will repay," says the Lord.

NIV Romans 14:11
It is written: "`As surely as I live,' says the Lord, `every knee will bow before me; every tongue will confess to God.'"

NIV Romans 15:3-4
3. For even Christ did not please himself but, as it is written: "The insults of those who insult you have fallen on me."
4. For everything that was written in the past was written to teach us, so that through endurance and the encouragement of the Scriptures we might have hope.

NIV Romans 15:7-12
7. Accept one another, then, just as Christ accepted you, in order to bring praise to God.
8. For I tell you that Christ has become a servant of the Jews on behalf of God's truth, to confirm the promises made to the patriarchs
9. so that the Gentiles may glorify God for his mercy, as it is written: "Therefore I will praise you among the Gentiles; I will sing hymns to your name."
10. Again, it says, "Rejoice, O Gentiles, with his people."
11. And again, "Praise the Lord, all you Gentiles, and sing praises to him, all you peoples."
12. And again, Isaiah says, "The Root of Jesse will spring up, one who will arise to rule over the nations; the Gentiles will hope in him."

NIV Romans 15:21
Rather, as it is written: "Those who were not told about him will see, and those who have not heard will understand."

NIV 1 Corinthians 1:19
For it is written: "I will destroy the wisdom of the wise; the intelligence of the intelligent I will frustrate."

NIV 1 Corinthians 1:31
Therefore, as it is written: "Let him who boasts boast in the Lord."

NIV 1 Corinthians 2:9
However, as it is written: "No eye has seen, no ear has heard, no mind has conceived what God has prepared for those who love him" --

NIV 1 Corinthians 3:19-20
19. For the wisdom of this world is foolishness in God's sight. As it is written: "He catches the wise in their craftiness" ;
20. and again, "The Lord knows that the thoughts of the wise are futile."

NIV 1 Corinthians 4:6
Now, brothers, I have applied these things to myself and Apollos for your benefit, so that you may learn from us the meaning of the saying, "Do not go beyond what is written." Then you will not take pride in one man over against another.

NIV 1 Corinthians 9:9
For it is written in the Law of Moses: "Do not muzzle an ox while it is treading out the grain." Is it about oxen that God is concerned?

NIV 1 Corinthians 10:7
Do not be idolaters, as some of them were; as it is written: "The people sat down to eat and drink and got up to indulge in pagan revelry."

NIV 1 Corinthians 10:11
These things happened to them as examples and were written down as warnings for us, on whom the fulfillment of the ages has come.

NIV 1 Corinthians 14:21
In the Law it is written: "Through men of strange tongues and through the lips of foreigners I will speak to this people, but even then they will not listen to me," says the Lord.

NIV 1 Corinthians 15:45
So it is written: "The first man Adam became a living being" ; the last Adam, a life-giving spirit.

NIV 1 Corinthians 15:54
When the perishable has been clothed with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality, then the saying that is written will come true: "Death has been swallowed up in victory."

NIV 2 Corinthians 1:13-14
13. For we do not write you anything you cannot read or understand. And I hope that,
14. as you have understood us in part, you will come to understand fully that you can boast of us just as we will boast of you in the day of the Lord Jesus.

NIV 2 Corinthians 4:13-14
13. it is written: "I believed; therefore I have spoken." With that same spirit of faith we also believe and therefore speak,
14. because we know that the one who raised the Lord Jesus from the dead will also raise us with Jesus and present us with you in his presence.

NIV 2 Corinthians 8:15
as it is written: "He who gathered much did not have too much, and he who gathered little did not have too little."

NIV Galatians 3:10
All who rely on observing the law are under a curse, for it is written: "Cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything written in the Book of the Law."

NIV Galatians 3:13
Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us, for it is written: "Cursed is everyone who is hung on a tree."

NIV Galatians 4:22
For it is written that Abraham had two sons, one by the slave woman and the other by the free woman.

NIV Galatians 4:27
For it is written: "Be glad, O barren woman, who bears no children; break forth and cry aloud, you who have no labor pains; because more are the children of the desolate woman than of her who has a husband."

NIV Hebrews 10:7
Then I said, `Here I am-- it is written about me in the scroll-- I have come to do your will, O God.'"

NIV 1 Peter 1:15-16
But just as he who called you is holy, so be holy in all you do; for it is written: "Be holy, because I am holy."

NIV 2 Peter 3:16
He writes the same way in all his letters, speaking in them of these matters. His letters contain some things that are hard to understand, which ignorant and unstable people distort, as they do the other Scriptures, to their own destruction.

NIV 1 John 2:12-14
12. I write to you, dear children, because your sins have been forgiven on account of his name.
13. I write to you, fathers, because you have known him who is from the beginning. I write to you young men, because you have overcome the evil one. I write to you, dear children, because you have known the Father.
14. I write to you, fathers, because you have known him who is from the beginning. I write to you, young men, because you are strong, and the word of God lives in you, and you have overcome the evil one.

[Elsie]

Well!

It MIGHT be true; but it SURE isn’t very Faith Building!!

—CatholicDude(I’ll light a candle for you.)