Posted on 05/05/2013 10:16:01 AM PDT by NYer
Are you saved?
Have you ever been asked this question? Has anyone ever told you that Catholics think they can work their way into Heaven?
The Catholic Church does not now, nor has it ever, taught a doctrine of salvation by works - that we can “work” our way into Heaven. And, the Bible does not teach that we are saved by “faith alone.” The only place in all of Scripture where the phrase “Faith Alone” appears, is in James 2:24, where it says that we are not justified (or saved) by faith alone. However, if works have nothing to do with our salvation, then how come every passage in the New Testament that talks about judgment says we will be judged by our works, not by whether or not we have faith alone? (See Rom 2, Matthew 15 and 16, 1 Ptr 1, Rev 20 and 22, 2 Cor 5, and many, many more verses).
If we are saved by faith alone, why does 1 Cor 13:13 say that love is greater than faith? Shouldn’t it be the other way around?
As Catholics we believe that we are saved by God’s grace alone. We can do nothing, apart from God’s grace, to receive the free gift of salvation. We also believe, however, that we have to respond to God’s grace. Protestants believe that, too. However, many Protestants believe that the only response necessary is an act of faith; whereas, Catholics believe a response of "faith and works" is necessary, or, as the Bible puts it in Galatians 5:6, “For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumsion is of any avail, but faith working through love." (Just as the Church teaches.)
St. Paul said he needed to work out his salvation with "fear and trembling." If anyone professed their faith in Jesus it was Paul. If he felt so assured of his salvation because of his faith alone in Jesus, why then would he be trembling, and have to work out his salvation?
So, the next time someone asks you if you are saved, the Catholic should reply:
As the Bible says, I am already saved (Rom. 8:24, Eph. 2:5–8), but I’m also being saved (1 Cor. 1:8, 2 Cor. 2:15, Phil. 2:12), and I have the hope that I will be saved (Rom. 5:9–10, 1 Cor. 3:12–15). Like the apostle Paul I am working out my salvation in fear and trembling (Phil. 2:12), with hopeful confidence in the promises of Christ (Rom. 5:2, 2 Tim. 2:11–13)." ♥
Every Sunday. Then I spend the rest of the week “backsliding”.
Only when I’m dead do I have a chance, by the grace of God, to be saved.
“Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom”
“It seems to me (as an Evangelical) that the Catholic concern for seeing the “fruit” of salvation in someones life “for we were saved unto good works...” is wholly biblical.”
In my personal opinion, I tend to see this concern as not a call for “fruit.” But, rather, a call to join their religion and cooperate in their practices. The scripture sums up the commandments with love of God, followed up with love of neighbor. If it was really about fruit, the Catholics would be happy with us so far as we follow them. But the “fruits” they demand are different and carnal in nature. This is the same demand made by many other religions, especially the cults with a strong church hierarchy. “Fruits” are redefined as obedience to structures and men in authority.
"[When] they receive also the baptism of the Church . . . then finally can they be fully sanctified and be the sons of God . . . since it is written, ‘Except a man be born again of water and of the Spirit
Joh 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
As you can see, some (or all) of your church fathers perverted the scriptures by adding the word again in the passage, suggesting that people were born a second time with water...The real verse doesn't say that...
And we can't know whether those church fathers really wrote that or if that word(s) was/were later added by your religion to justify your method of salvation...
And, as we see constantly on these thread from current Catholics, no one gets into scripture to find any truth, you guys just repeat what was told from the first supposed writing and then copied and pasted for centuries on end...
An honest person who seeks the truth in the scriptures will easily and readily recognize that there is a water baptism AND a spiritual baptism, and they definately are not the same thing...
That's man made teaching and it's worldly - and not Biblical. Jesus doesn't have any blood in His Spiritual Body now - so what you are drinking isn't His blood.
Sorry you don’t understand that.
Understand this... "'You hypocrites! Isaiah was right when he prophesied about you: These people honor me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me. Their worship is a farce, for they teach man-made ideas as commands from God.'" Matthew 15:7-9
"Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You shut the door of the kingdom of heaven in people's faces. You yourselves do not enter, nor will you let those enter who are trying to. Matt 23:13
“Born Again in Baptism”
Here’s the Thief on the cross going to heaven without baptism:
Luk 23:39-43 And one of the malefactors which were hanged railed on him, saying, If thou be Christ, save thyself and us. (40) But the other answering rebuked him, saying, Dost not thou fear God, seeing thou art in the same condemnation? (41) And we indeed justly; for we receive the due reward of our deeds: but this man hath done nothing amiss. (42) And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom. (43) And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.
And here is Cornelius being filled/baptized by the Holy Spirit prior to water immersion:
Act 10:44-47 While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word. (45) And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost. (46) For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter, (47) Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?
This latter scripture shows that Holy Spirit baptism and regeneration is not dependent on water baptism.
According to John the Baptist, it is the baptism of the Holy Spirit which is the greater blessing:
Mat_3:11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:
To be baptized in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit with water is a symbolic gesture indicating one’s change in life and commitment to God. Just like those who are “baptized” in the name of Moses, were only taking on the commitment to follow Moses and his teachings.
Now I understand,...Catholics don’t claim to be saved by faith, nor by works, but by everything else they do for salvation except faith. /s
True, but that does not obviate the binding authority of the moral commandments. As Jesus stated: "Do not think that I came to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I did not come to abolish but to fulfill." Antinomianism - or the rejection of the validity of the moral commandments - is an ancient heresy that Christians rightly repudiate.
Growing up in a somewhat anti-Catholic denomination, I had many false perceptions about the Church. It took many years get a more accurate understanding, and while I do not agree on every point of doctrine, I have a great respect for the Catholic Church.
Off topic but couldn’t find where this could post on a thread so folks would be aware.. Just for your information.
Strategy analyst Mark Langfan:
“MEATO has been born,” ......... “The Middle East Alliance Treaty Organization’... has been created...... out of the ashes of Hosni Mubarak’s fall.”
Israel is considering partnering with several (Muslim Nations) ...... in a’defense alliance’... that would be aimed at containing a nuclear Iran...
...The alliance would see Israel teaming up with...” Saudi Arabia, Jordan and Turkey and United Arab Emirates”.... to forge a Middle East “moderate crescent”... to “contain” Iran, rather than confront it.
...... such an alliance would give Israel access to radar stations in Saudi Arabia and the UAE ‘in exchange’ for its own early warning radar information and ‘anti-ballistic missile defense systems’.
“The plan is to start with information-sharing about Iran’s ballistic missiles,”.... said an Israeli official.
The proposal is reportedly known by participating diplomats as ‘4+1’.
http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/167735#.UYZzO7XqmxU
Not true. You don't have to wait to be dead to be saved. We are saved now.
2 Corinthians 6:2 For he says, “In a favorable time I listened to you, and in a day of salvation I have helped you.” Behold, now is the favorable time; behold, now is the day of salvation.
2 Corinthians 5:17 Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation. The old has passed away; behold, the new has come.
Thank you. That’s very interesting.
The belief appears to be that the right gestures and repetitive phrases can call the magic down, but the symbiote has to be dispensed by an adept who has been touched by another adept in a presumably unbroken chain going back to the Apostles. It’s a very mechanical and physical religious system. There are Christians within it, I’ve known more than a few, but that’s their own faith shining through in spite of all the distractions and extraneous trappings, and not due to the elaborate efforts of the religious system itself.
“True, but that does not obviate the binding authority of the moral commandments. “
These are, in fact, the moral commandments. Hence the phrase “summed up.” All the commandments are summed up in two, as it follows if one follows the first two, then one naturally does not covet, or steal, or lie, etc. But if one does not perfectly love God (who DOES love God with ALL their heart?) or their neighbor, it should not be construed that we are damned for this failure, or even that a patient preserverence in attempting to reach perfection justifies us either (as the Mormons try to say). Our faith and mindset must be one of dependence on God for our salvation, not giving in to that lie from our flesh which denies our utter inability and depravity. We are dead to the law, no longer bound to its terrible judgment on those who constantly fail.
” I have a great respect for the Catholic Church.”
Being a baptized Catholic (now I’m Christian) in Hispanic majority south Texas, I have absolutely no respect for it. The Catholic Churches up north “put their best foot forward,” but amongst majority Catholic countries and peoples, I can attest that the superstition, ignorance and blasphemy is widespread and terrible, and utterly supported by the Catholic authorities. The Priests as well are utterly useless, and half the time are worst relativists than the infidels. Once one realizes that man will always fail you, the outward facade of the Catholic Church loses its sway. True Christianity is characterized by a spiritual regeneration. Its only great monuments are in the heart, and cannot be visited on a sunday morning.
Faith is a gift, but by virtue of the gift of freewill we much choose God which begins as an assent of the will. Before this faith can be exercised, man must have the grace of God to move and assist him; he must have the interior helps of the Holy Spirit, who moves the heart and converts it to God, who opens the eyes of the mind and makes it easy for all to accept and believe the truth.
We are not going to agree nor will we settle in this forum a discontinuity in the unity of His Church that has been lingering for 600 years.
Peace be with you
“Faith is a gift, but by virtue of the gift of freewill we much choose God which begins as an assent of the will.”
This was already disproved with the previous scriptures. Christ wasn’t kidding when he said “You have not chosen me, I have chosen you.” Or that no one can come to the Father unless they are drawn, and that the lack of drawing on the Father’s part is the reason why they disbelieve.
“We are not going to agree nor will we settle in this forum a discontinuity in the unity of His Church that has been lingering for 600 years.”
Actually, Augustine predates this by a great deal. It’s the Catholics that have been out of unity with the scriptures for about 2,000 years.
joke pal. relax
But try telling that to those who are the Bible-only Christians.
They ain't the only ones.
However; it is usually termed as 'working' to KEEP your ticket to Heaven.
Jesus answered, “The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent.”
1 John 3:21-24
Dear friends, if our hearts do not condemn us, we have confidence before God and receive from him anything we ask, because we keep his commands and do what pleases him. And this is his command: to believe in the name of his Son, Jesus Christ, and to love one another as he commanded us. The one who keeps God’s commands lives in him, and he in them. And this is how we know that he lives in us: We know it by the Spirit he gave us.
And just WHY did the COUNTER reformation occur?
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