Posted on 03/18/2013 12:23:39 PM PDT by darrellmaurina
Romans 9:15-24
15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. 16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy. 17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth. 18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth. 19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will? 20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus? 21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour? 22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: 23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory, 24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?
I think that's a good position on all these matters.
You may want to take a closer look at the spiritual life of Puritan congregations in England, Scotland, and New England during the 1600s and the first half of the 1700s, as well as what today is known as the “experiential Calvinist” wing of Reformed churches.
Reformed churches which place a strong emphasis on personal conversion typically have significant numbers of people who are in serious angst over whether or not they are saved.
Reformed doctrine begins with total depravity. It doesn't end there — after all, if it did, then nobody could ever be saved because our sin is so great that it requires unconditional election for anyone to be saved — but Calvinism certainly in history has produced a great deal of personal despair.
Some of us would consider personal awareness of our own personal sin to be a very important thing. Assurance of salvation does exist, but it certainly is not to be presumed or assumed.
A Calvinist who acts as if total depravity describes only other people may be a Calvinist in his head, but he is a Pelagian in his heart.
“But I don’t know how to get around passages like these:”
Indeed, it is a hard question on your part. If someone is saved by their own free-will, how can it be said that someone who apostatizes is IMPOSSIBLE for him to be reconverted, regardless of how far he falls? It stands to reason that if the will is unhindered, and is able to make its own decisions, then there is always hope so long as there is life to decide, no matter how black and degraded a man becomes. Certainly, people even in worse conditions came to Christ at first.
But since we know that men are saved by grace, by the will of God utterly, as says the scriptures posted here over and over again, that it is impossible for them to be lost, even in the face of supreme delusion:
Mat_24:24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, IF IT WERE POSSIBLE, they shall deceive the very elect.
Those who are Christ’s sheep, are always His sheep. They do not morph into something else, for we are known before the world was even established:
Eph_1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
And we also know, that once the Holy Spirit has begun a work in us, He continues to do so until the day of Jesus Christ:
Php 1:6 Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:
So, how then is Hebrews reconciled?
Heb 6:4-5 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, (5) And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
These are never called the elect, nor are they said to have been born of the Spirit. Everywhere when Paul speaks of believers, he calls them the elect, and calls their salvation secure, in the past tense. Their knowledge of the things of the Spirit is in the form of “tastes,” but not actual possession. They have not drank it. They have not eaten it. They have only tasted the outward manifestations of it. They have enlightenment, but it is a natural enlightenment, which so far has not “eaten” and “drank” the Lord Jesus Christ. They are said to be “partakers of the Holy Ghost,” and then “have tasted the good work of God, and the powers of the world to come.” Since the scripture cannot be contradicted, these scriptures must have reference, therefore, for those who joined the Christian church, but who were not the elect, and who had the benefit of witnessing the miracles of the Holy Spirit, and of experiencing the outward blessing of the new dispensation, such as witnessing miracles, or being healed themselves, but they themselves, despite an outward profession, were never sheep of our God Jesus Christ.
For example, such as the couple who lied to the Apostles. Yet, they had witnessed the mighty works of God, and dwelled in the physical community of Christ. And as a result of their lie, were destroyed with no chance of later repentence, because the Holy Spirit knows who belongs to Christ:
Act 5:1-10 But a certain man named Ananias, with Sapphira his wife, sold a possession, (2) And kept back part of the price, his wife also being privy to it, and brought a certain part, and laid it at the apostles’ feet. (3) But Peter said, Ananias, why hath Satan filled thine heart to lie to the Holy Ghost, and to keep back part of the price of the land? (4) Whiles it remained, was it not thine own? and after it was sold, was it not in thine own power? why hast thou conceived this thing in thine heart? thou hast not lied unto men, but unto God. (5) And Ananias hearing these words fell down, and gave up the ghost: and great fear came on all them that heard these things. (6) And the young men arose, wound him up, and carried him out, and buried him. (7) And it was about the space of three hours after, when his wife, not knowing what was done, came in. (8) And Peter answered unto her, Tell me whether ye sold the land for so much? And she said, Yea, for so much. (9) Then Peter said unto her, How is it that ye have agreed together to tempt the Spirit of the Lord? behold, the feet of them which have buried thy husband are at the door, and shall carry thee out. (10) Then fell she down straightway at his feet, and yielded up the ghost: and the young men came in, and found her dead, and, carrying her forth, buried her by her husband.
Fair question.
God could do almost anything. After all, He is God.
There are, of course, exceptions. Those exceptions are matters contrary to His own nature — for example, a holy and sovereign God is inherently incapable of committing sin, inherently incapable of limiting His own power, or doing some other such thing. That's why classic condundrum questions such as whether God is capable of creating a rock so heavy He can't lift it are inherently nonsensical. Sovereign means sovereign; holy means holy. An all-powerful God who is less than all-powerful is as inherently impossible as a square circle.
While God **COULD** do almost anything, we know from His Holy Word what He has in fact done.
What do we know from God's Word that He has done?
What we know includes that “the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.”
This isn't just one case. The word “vessels” is plural, so in addition to Pharaoh, there must be other vessels of wrath fitted for destruction since God being “willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction.”
I see no way that an Arminian who wants to believe an inerrant Bible can avoid admitting that at least one human being was predestined for destruction — Pharaoh — and that there are other similar vessels of wrath fitted for destruction for the explicit purpose that God “might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory.”
Once the Arminian admits that, and it is crystal clear from the text, the Arminian loses the argument that predestination unto destruction somehow dishonors God.
Beautifully stated.
I’m hungering for some experiential Calvinism. Think I’ll find a Beeke sermon...
Are you sure he wasn't saved?
And I’m still not sure if you believe God could change his mind about you.. or you could be wrong about being elect...
I am assuming you know you are elect of course. Your previous reply may mean I’m wrong on this.. If I am, never mind. :)
“Heb 6:4-5 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, (5) And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
These are never called the elect, nor are they said to have been born of the Spirit.”
Actually, as it says in Hebrews, it says ““For it is impossible, in the case of those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, and have shared in the Holy Spirit, 5 and have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6 and then have fallen away, to restore them again to repentance, since they are crucifying once again the Son of God to their own harm and holding him up to contempt.”
Crucifying ONCE AGAIN the Son of God. Have tasted the heavenly gift. Shared in the Holy Spirit. Yet you suggest this doesn’t refer to Christians?
I don’t know how God could be more explicit. It seems Calvin must reign over the plain words of scripture.
If you're lost in sin, HOW can you choose Christ?
John 6:44: "No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day."
No one CAN come.... "can" indicates ability. Christ didn't say, "No one MAY come..." which would imply/mean permission. We are UNABLE to come unless the Father draws us to Christ. We are acted upon; we do not act of our own ability; prior to being called, our actions would always be consistent with our choice to act against Christ.
Hoss
“I’d say he meant his son was dead and then made alive.. kinda like being dead in sin and then being regenerated by God — being able THEN to accept his Son Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior.”
What does the text say?
“But when he came to his senses, he said, ‘How many of my father’s hired men have more than enough bread, but I am dying here with hunger! 18 I will get up and go to my father...”
Did his father pick him up and carry him home? Or did he come to his sense - even at a time when his father called him “dead”?
And what of all the verses calling the unsaved sick, or captive? Is a sick man dead? Is a slave dead? Is a blind man dead?
At what point will Calvinists look at all the scripture, and not just a handful of verses?
You emphasize “crucifying Christ anew” meaninglessly, since the sentence ends with “and put him to an open shame”. Obviously, Christ isn’t crucified with each conversion. Even those who do reject Christianity, and return again, are simply partaking of Christ’s one and only sacrifice. The latter part, therefore, indicates their hatred of Christ and demand for Him to be shamed anew. In other words, joining again the angry mobs. You also don’t attempt to reconcile it with its contradiction of arminianism, since how could it be impossible for a person to choose Christ? But if it agrees with the other scriptures, it is more than possible for it to be impossible. As Jesus said, there would be those who would cry, Lord, Lord, have we not done many miracles in your name? And Christ would reply, I never knew you. Not I knew you until you fell away. Again, in other scriptures, they left us to show that they were not of us. And finally, just three verses later in Hebrews, the rain falls on both bad and good seeds, producing either thorns or wondrous growth. And what began with an IF they fall away, endswith an assurance that he did not believe it applied to them, though he was speaking in that way. For the good seeds always have accompanying fruit, while the bad ones never do. Your theology is based on straw, unable to even make your theology work in its own universe.
A ridiculous argument. The refutation sits beneath your nose. The prodigal son was always his son. He did not cease to be his son, though he thought so. In the end, he comes to his senses and returns. As Christ says, my sheep hear me and know my voice. And again, no one can hear me unless he is given to me by the Father. When are you going to read the scriptures, instead of abusing one or two whose answers lie beneath your nose?
Thank you... but as you correctly point out, Dr. Joel Beeke can state these things much better than me.
BTW, my wife translated one of Dr. Beeke’s books into Korean back when she worked as a professional translator for a Christian publishing company. Most of her translation work was of older Puritan literature, however, along with some more recent material by people like Charles Spurgeon, Martyn Lloyd-Jones and John MacArthur.
I don't get the reference to Spurgeon. I disagree with Arminianism as well. If one believes he can lose his salvation, then he is still trusting in his own works to save him, not in the finished work of Jesus Christ.
"In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truthy, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession" (Ephesians 1:13,14)
We are sealed with the holy Spirit AFTER we believed, not BEFORE.
Regeneration does not preceded faith. Here is Acts 16:30,31 according to calvinism:
And brought them out, and said, "Sirs, what must I do to be saved?" And they said, "There is nothing you can do. But if you believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, then you will demonstrate that you have already been regenerated." (Pseudo Acts 15:30,31)
But the real Acts 15:30,31 does NOT say that. It says "Believe" (aorist imperative, a command which the hearer is implored to obey). "and thou shalt be saved" (future -- salvation, the gift of god, will be the result. It's a gift that is received through faith, not of works, lest any man should boast. Ephesians 2:8,9 is often twisted by calvinists (like R.C. Sproul) to say something it does not: that faith is the gift. The English does NOT support this, and Greek most assuredly does not.
As humans we exercise faith all day, everyday. (I was hiking over the weekend and with every plant of boot in the rocky terrain I trusted that the path would hold and I wouldn't find myself sliding down the mountain trail). God wants us to trust in the finished work of Jesus Christ, not in our own works of righteousness. God is faithful to raise us up in the last day. Such are saved from the 2nd death. They will not stand before the great white throne of judgement and be judged according to their works. Faith is not a work.
Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him for righteousness. Now to him that worketh is the reward reckoned of grace, but of debt. But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness. (Roman 4:3-5)
For the Spurgeon quote, it was to demonstrate the long and glorious history of Calvinism, which is really just the Gospel, but called Calvinism by others. To call it heresy is to curse generations of Christians and mighty men of the scripture.
If I said we are sealed before faith by the Holy Spirit, I did not mean to. But it is clear that outside the Holy Spirit’s influence, no one can call Christ the Lord. That is the gist of the quote already provided. Also again, it is clear that God calls whom he predestinates. And whom he calls he justifies.Obviosly, no one argues they were always justified. But they were predestinated before the foundation of the world. Putting words in my mouth can’t make these scriptures disappear. Nor do I claim there is no such thing as faith. Like that quote from acts, “and as many believed as were ordained by God”. (Going by memory, since responding on a
smartphone.)
As for faith in all sorts of things. Obviously you have free agency. But as far as your salvation is concerned, it is the act of God. Only those whom the Father has given to Christ will come to Him. Such was Christ’s response to the Jews who rejected Him.
Nothing? The Lord of glory died to make the gift of God possible through faith and to draw all men. (John 12:32). He reached out to man with the gospel. (Read Luke 4 and Isaiah 61). The Bible says that "faith cometh by hearing and hearing the word of God." (Romans 10:17) The words of God "are spirit and they are life." (John 6:63) The word of God is powerfully persuasive, and draws us, but not everyone will receive it (and Jesus knew who would not--he's God).
And do you believe that God has not predetermined that they will do this?
Foreknowledge does not equate to predetermination. God, who is from everlasting, sees all eternity. He knows who will believe, and who will not.
He chose "us in him before the foundation of the world, (keep reading), that we should be holy and without blame before him in love having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will." (Ephesians 1:5)
This is what he predetermined, not that they would believe, but that those who do believe would receive the gift of god. It is described in different ways:
But all these intersect in one place, in one person, who calls himself the resurrection and the life, Jesus Christ.
“Nothing? The Lord of glory died to make the gift of God possible through faith and to draw all men. (John 12:32).”
The saying “I... will draw all men” must refer to the opening up of the way to the Gentiles, but not that every single human being is drawn to salvation. Otherwise, the scripture is contradicted.
Christ says over and over again, in response to the Jews who mumbled or contradicted His sayings, that the reason they could not believe was because only those drawn by the Father could come to Him.
Joh 6:41-44 The Jews then murmured at him, because he said, I am the bread which came down from heaven. (42) And they said, Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? how is it then that he saith, I came down from heaven? (43) Jesus therefore answered and said unto them, Murmur not among yourselves. (44) No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
Notice this is in direct reply to their murmuring. He confirms this point, here:
Joh 6:64-65 But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him. (65) And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.
It is explicitly stated, that Christ knew who would not believe BECAUSE it must be given to him by the Father. IOW, unless the Father DRAWS him, he cannot come.
Thus making it ever more likely your verse is in reference to something else.
If we read the whole sentence:
Joh_12:32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.
It says: If I be lifted up from the Earth, IOW, his crucifixion, then, as a direct result of this, “I... will draw all men unto me.” The crucifixion, of course, does open up the way for the Gentiles to receive the blessings of God. We are explicitly told this:
Eph 2:13-17 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ. (14) For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us; (15) Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace; (16) And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby: (17) And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh.
While Christ took on all the sins of the world, God ordained for Himself a peculiar and chosen people. Not chosen because they were so righteous (and God is no respecter of persons), but because of His own mercy.
“Foreknowledge does not equate to predetermination.”
Except that the word Predetermination is the one used. And, of course, He also has foreknowledge. But noting again what Jesus said on the matter, they are not predetermined because God foreknew that they would have the good sense to repent and be converted. They are predetermined because the Father DRAWS them, and those who do not believe are not DRAWN. They simply aren’t chosen:
1Pe_2:9 But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:
Joh_15:16 Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you.
Act_13:48 And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.
Rom 9:19-25 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will? (20) Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus? (21) Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour? (22) What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: (23) And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory, (24) Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles? (25) As he saith also in Osee, I will call them my people, which were not my people; and her beloved, which was not beloved.
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