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To: PieterCasparzen
Are you saying that you believe that God has nothing to do with a person coming to have faith in Jesus Christ?

Nothing? The Lord of glory died to make the gift of God possible through faith and to draw all men. (John 12:32). He reached out to man with the gospel. (Read Luke 4 and Isaiah 61). The Bible says that "faith cometh by hearing and hearing the word of God." (Romans 10:17) The words of God "are spirit and they are life." (John 6:63) The word of God is powerfully persuasive, and draws us, but not everyone will receive it (and Jesus knew who would not--he's God).

And do you believe that God has not predetermined that they will do this?

Foreknowledge does not equate to predetermination. God, who is from everlasting, sees all eternity. He knows who will believe, and who will not.

He chose "us in him before the foundation of the world, (keep reading), that we should be holy and without blame before him in love having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will." (Ephesians 1:5)

This is what he predetermined, not that they would believe, but that those who do believe would receive the gift of god. It is described in different ways:

  1. Power to become sons of God (John 1:11,12)
  2. Living water (John 4:10)
  3. True bread (John 5:33)
  4. Righteousness (Romans 4:17)
  5. Eternal life (Romans 6:23)

But all these intersect in one place, in one person, who calls himself the resurrection and the life, Jesus Christ.

79 posted on 03/19/2013 5:12:20 PM PDT by nonsporting
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To: nonsporting

“Nothing? The Lord of glory died to make the gift of God possible through faith and to draw all men. (John 12:32).”


The saying “I... will draw all men” must refer to the opening up of the way to the Gentiles, but not that every single human being is drawn to salvation. Otherwise, the scripture is contradicted.

Christ says over and over again, in response to the Jews who mumbled or contradicted His sayings, that the reason they could not believe was because only those drawn by the Father could come to Him.

Joh 6:41-44 The Jews then murmured at him, because he said, I am the bread which came down from heaven. (42) And they said, Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? how is it then that he saith, I came down from heaven? (43) Jesus therefore answered and said unto them, Murmur not among yourselves. (44) No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Notice this is in direct reply to their murmuring. He confirms this point, here:

Joh 6:64-65 But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him. (65) And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.

It is explicitly stated, that Christ knew who would not believe BECAUSE it must be given to him by the Father. IOW, unless the Father DRAWS him, he cannot come.

Thus making it ever more likely your verse is in reference to something else.

If we read the whole sentence:

Joh_12:32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.

It says: If I be lifted up from the Earth, IOW, his crucifixion, then, as a direct result of this, “I... will draw all men unto me.” The crucifixion, of course, does open up the way for the Gentiles to receive the blessings of God. We are explicitly told this:

Eph 2:13-17 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ. (14) For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us; (15) Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace; (16) And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby: (17) And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh.

While Christ took on all the sins of the world, God ordained for Himself a peculiar and chosen people. Not chosen because they were so righteous (and God is no respecter of persons), but because of His own mercy.

“Foreknowledge does not equate to predetermination.”


Except that the word Predetermination is the one used. And, of course, He also has foreknowledge. But noting again what Jesus said on the matter, they are not predetermined because God foreknew that they would have the good sense to repent and be converted. They are predetermined because the Father DRAWS them, and those who do not believe are not DRAWN. They simply aren’t chosen:

1Pe_2:9 But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:

Joh_15:16 Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you.

Act_13:48 And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.

Rom 9:19-25 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will? (20) Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus? (21) Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour? (22) What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: (23) And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory, (24) Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles? (25) As he saith also in Osee, I will call them my people, which were not my people; and her beloved, which was not beloved.


80 posted on 03/19/2013 7:07:55 PM PDT by Greetings_Puny_Humans
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To: nonsporting
Foreknowledge does not equate to predetermination.

I believe that when I started trying to get right with God, and started reading the Bible (eventually coming to have a faith in Jesus Christ after realizing that I previously only had not even a superficial knowledge of God's Word) that what was actually happening was the Holy Spirit was moving me to do so from the beginning of the process.

So you were able to make the righteous choice to believe in Jesus Christ all by yourself ? Without the Holy Spirit of God moving you to seek God or have faith ?

You would have to be highly commended for taking it upon yourself to make such a righteous choice.
81 posted on 03/19/2013 10:45:38 PM PDT by PieterCasparzen (We have to fix things ourselves)
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