Posted on 03/18/2013 12:23:39 PM PDT by darrellmaurina
Romans 9:15-24
15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. 16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy. 17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth. 18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth. 19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will? 20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus? 21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour? 22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: 23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory, 24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?
“No man can overpower God. “
Duh! However, if God allows man to choose - as hundreds of verses say - then by God’s will, man may choose.
Thats right. Amen.
(3) Election in Christ is primarily corporate, i.e., an election of a people (Eph 1:4-5, 7, 9). The elect are called “the body of Christ” (4:12), “my church” (Mt 16:18), “a people belonging to God” (1 Pe 2:9), and the “bride” of Christ (Rev 19:7). Therefore, election is corporate and embraces individual persons only as they identify and associate themselves with the body of Christ, the true church (Eph 1:22-23; see Robert Shank, Elect in the Son, [Minneapolis: Bethany House Publishers]). This was true already of Israel in the OT (see Dt 29:18-21, note; 2Ki 21:14, note; see article on God’s Covenant with the Israelites, p. 298).
Romans 9:13, "Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated." As we move onto verse 17, we read the following: " 17For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth. 18Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth."
Are we then to assume these are mere allegories? Jesus answers this for us in John 6:44: "No one can come to me except the Father that sent me draws him, and I will raise him up on the last day."
(4) The election to salvation and holiness of the body of Christ is always certain. But the certainty of election for individuals remains conditional on their personal living faith in Jesus Christ and perseverance in union with him. Paul demonstrates this as follows. (a) God’s eternal purpose for the church is that we should “be holy and blameless in his sight” (Eph 1:4). This refers both to forgiveness of sins (1:7) and to the church’s purity as the bride of Christ. God’s elect people are being led by the Holy Spirit toward sanctification and holiness (see Ro 8:14; Gal. 5:16-25). The apostle repeatedly emphasizes this paramount purpose of God (see Eph 2:10; 3:14-19; 4:1-3, 13-24; 5:1-18). (b) Fulfillment of this purpose for the corporate church is certain: Christ will “present her to himself as a radiant church…holy and blameless” (Eph 5:27). (c) Fulfillment of this purpose for individuals in the church is conditional. Christ will present us “holy and blameless in his sight” (Eph 1:4) only if we continue in the faith. Paul states this clearly: Christ will “present you holy in his sight without blemish…if you continue in your faith, established and firm, not moved from the hope held out in the gospel” (Col 1:22-23).
Holy living is the fruit of salvation, not its root. We read in Jeremiah 17:9 about the unrighteousness of all - apart from Spirit-wrought justification. We see, furthermore, our own great shortfalls as we measure ourselves against the Law (the 10 Commandments), and must cry out to God for mercy, which gracious pardon can be had by the truly repentant through Christ's merit. This is the norm for the Christian life, the cycle of sin and repentance, with the Spirit working sanctification in the saints even as they themselves seem to themselves to become more and more odious.
So you see we cannot simply apply all the verses on election to "the church" without recognizing that she is the whole of all of the elect people, and that the chain of salvation described in Romans 8:29-30 is for the individual believer.
Consider all of these through the lens of "seeing they do not perceive, and hearing they do not understand."
The scripture is repleate with examples of people doing things God didn’t want them to do. God’s will is not thwarted by poeple rejecting Him, because it’s His will that we have a choice. God desinged us to walk with Him by choice. That was the purpose of putting the tree in the garden. Once we chose, we are predestined to be comformed into His image.
That is not what Isaiah 6 states. God's purpose through Isaiah was to harden their hearts so they wouldn't come to Him. But God in His mercy and grace is gracious enough to save a remnant.
God doesn't beg. God loves. Man doesn't seek God. Man rebels against this love. Destruction is decreed for all but a remnant.
This is the story of man. We saw the same thing when God wouldn't allow Adam and Eve to eat of the Tree of Life. We saw it again with Noah and the flood. We saw it with the tower of Babel. And the rebellion of Israel in the wilderness with Moses. On and on. The whole book of Judges in this constant dynamic; God saves, man rebels. Paul tells us now God has hardened the hearts of the Jews until time time of the Gentile is complete (Romans 9).
We have a highly inflated value of self-worth. The only reason any of us are saved is because God is exceptually patience and loving to us by which He extends His grace. He doesn't beg us to come to Him. He acts aggressively to save His elect by His will. And those of us who are saved are saved ONLY because He so decreed it just like the remnant of Isaiah's time.
Psa 29:2 Ascribe to the LORD the glory due his name; worship the LORD in the splendor of holiness.
Psa 29:3 The voice of the LORD is over the waters; the God of glory thunders, the LORD, over many waters.
Psa 29:4 The voice of the LORD is powerful; the voice of the LORD is full of majesty.
Psa 29:5 The voice of the LORD breaks the cedars; the LORD breaks the cedars of Lebanon.
Psa 29:6 He makes Lebanon to skip like a calf, and Sirion like a young wild ox.
Psa 29:7 The voice of the LORD flashes forth flames of fire.
Psa 29:8 The voice of the LORD shakes the wilderness; the LORD shakes the wilderness of Kadesh.
Psa 29:9 The voice of the LORD makes the deer give birth and strips the forests bare, and in his temple all cry, "Glory!"
Psa 29:10 The LORD sits enthroned over the flood; the LORD sits enthroned as king forever.
Psa 29:11 May the LORD give strength to his people! May the LORD bless his people with peace!
This is distinguished from free will, whereby man, who is dead in sins and trespasses, is said to be able to choose life sans a sovereign act of grace in the form of regeneration. No, the latter must precede that choice, and God receives the glory.
Romans 9:13, “Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.”
That came from Malachi, not Genesis. Was it addressed to individuals, or nations? Were the Jews, the Chosen People, chosen as individuals or as a nation?
And as Romans 1 teaches, those who choose to reject God will be rejected by God and hardened:
“18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who by their unrighteousness suppress the truth. 19 For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them. 20 For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse. 21 For although they knew God, they did not honor him as God or give thanks to him, but they became futile in their thinking, and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22 Claiming to be wise, they became fools, 23 and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images resembling mortal man and birds and animals and creeping things.
24 Therefore God gave them up in the lusts of their hearts to impurity, to the dishonoring of their bodies among themselves, 25 because they exchanged the truth about God for a lie and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever! Amen.”
“We see, furthermore, our own great shortfalls as we measure ourselves against the Law (the 10 Commandments), and must cry out to God for mercy, which gracious pardon can be had by the truly repentant through Christ’s merit.”
Of course. That has nothing to do with corporate election. If you are IN CHRIST, then it is God’s Will to see you brought to the far shore - but also his will for you to live a changed life. There is no saving grace that doesn’t result in a changed life. But if you are in Christ, then
“...God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved— and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus...”
Still, Hebrews warns us:
“4 For it is impossible, in the case of those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, and have shared in the Holy Spirit, 5 and have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6 and then have fallen away, to restore them again to repentance, since they are crucifying once again the Son of God to their own harm and holding him up to contempt. 7 For land that has drunk the rain that often falls on it, and produces a crop useful to those for whose sake it is cultivated, receives a blessing from God. 8 But if it bears thorns and thistles, it is worthless and near to being cursed, and its end is to be burned.”
Also see:
“How can a corpse choose to do anything?”
Are we ‘dead in sin?
Jhn 5:25 “Truly, truly, I say to you, an hour is coming, and is now here, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear will live.
Rom 4:17 as it is written, “I have made you the father of many nations”—in the presence of the God in whom he believed, who gives life to the dead and calls into existence the things that do not exist.
Eph 2:1 And you were dead in the trespasses and sins
Eph 2:5 even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved—
Col 2:13 And you, who were dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made alive together with him, having forgiven us all our trespasses,
1Pe 4:6 For this is why the gospel was preached even to those who are dead, that though judged in the flesh the way people are, they might live in the spirit the way God does.
Anything else? Slaves or bondservants
Jhn 8:34 Jesus answered them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, everyone who commits sin is a slave to sin.
Rom 6:16 Do you not know that if you present yourselves to anyone as obedient slaves, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin, which leads to death, or of obedience, which leads to righteousness?
Rom 6:17 But thanks be to God, that you who were once slaves of sin have become obedient from the heart to the standard of teaching to which you were committed,
Rom 6:19 I am speaking in human terms, because of your natural limitations. For just as you once presented your members as slaves to impurity and to lawlessness leading to more lawlessness, so now present your members as slaves to righteousness leading to sanctification.
Rom 6:20 When you were slaves of sin, you were free in regard to righteousness.
Gal 4:7 So you are no longer a slave, but a son, and if a son, then an heir through God.
Blind
Mat 23:16 “Woe to you, blind guides, who say, ‘If anyone swears by the temple, it is nothing, but if anyone swears by the gold of the temple, he is bound by his oath.’
Mat 23:17 “You blind fools! For which is greater, the gold or the temple that has made the gold sacred?
Mat 23:19 “You blind men! For which is greater, the gift or the altar that makes the gift sacred?
Mat 23:24 “You blind guides, straining out a gnat and swallowing a camel!
Mat 23:26 “You blind Pharisee! First clean the inside of the cup and the plate, that the outside also may be clean.
Luk 4:18 “The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he has anointed me to proclaim good news to the poor. He has sent me to proclaim liberty to the captives and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty those who are oppressed,
Rom 2:19 and if you are sure that you yourself are a guide to the blind, a light to those who are in darkness,
2Pe 1:9 For whoever lacks these qualities is so nearsighted that he is blind, having forgotten that he was cleansed from his former sins.
Other
Eph 2:3 among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind.
Eph 5:8 for at one time you were darkness, but now you are light in the Lord. Walk as children of light
2Pe 2:14 They have eyes full of adultery, insatiable for sin. They entice unsteady souls. They have hearts trained in greed. Accursed children!
1Jo 3:10 By this it is evident who are the children of God, and who are the children of the devil: whoever does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor is the one who does not love his brother.
Mat 9:12 But when he heard it, he said, “Those who are well have no need of a physician, but those who are sick.
Mar 2:17 And when Jesus heard it, he said to them, “Those who are well have no need of a physician, but those who are sick. I came not to call the righteous, but sinners.”
Phl 2:15 that you may be blameless and innocent, children of God without blemish in the midst of a crooked and twisted generation, among whom you shine as lights in the world,
BTW - in the tale of the Prodigal Son, the father calls his son “dead”? Did this mean totally alienated, or dead?
Are sick people dead? Are blind people dead? Are slaves dead?
All need rescue, but saying that we are dead and thus incapable of responding to God’s call is to ignore a lot of scripture.
I think there is evidence, furthermore, to bolster the notion of free-agency by unregenerate man (who acts according to his nature just as a sow returns to her wallowing in the mud) working as part of God's plan. God does not cause sin (the very thought of which is blasphemy), but He most certainly uses the actions of sinners (per Romans 8:28), the ebbing and flowing of history to effect His grander plan which, in the end, is His own glory.
It is an awesome play, this thing we call history ("His story"), and insofar as we are not privy to His will, we don't know the ending or even what tomorrow holds but are left to marvel at His unfathomable wisdom.
“That came from Malachi, not Genesis. Was it addressed to individuals, or nations?”
How can you ask a question like that, when it is naming two individuals?
Paul did not “choose” to be an Apostle, and then was corporately “predestinated” because of his choice. Rather, he was chosen before the foundation of the world, personally:
Gal 1:15-16 But when it pleased God, who separated me from my mother’s womb, and called me by his grace, (16) To reveal his Son in me, that I might preach him among the heathen; immediately I conferred not with flesh and blood:
2Ti 1:9-11 Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began, (10) But is now made manifest by the appearing of our Saviour Jesus Christ, who hath abolished death, and hath brought life and immortality to light through the gospel: (11) Whereunto I am appointed a preacher, and an apostle, and a teacher of the Gentiles.
And he wasn’t the only one:
Jer 1:5 Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations.
If you are to be believed, then salvation is not guaranteed upon the acceptance of Christ. It is conditional, and yet, Paul speaks of our salvation as already accomplished, we are ‘saved,’ we are not “going to be saved, as long as we don’t change our opinion.”
Joh_15:16 Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you.
Unless we are regenerate…yes. Your scripture selections support it clearly. We are dead in trespasses and sins due to Adam's fall. We cannot choose God by ourselves. Just as you quote, we are slaves to sin. Unless God acts, we will be unregenerate, and be rightly punished for our sin.
Are sick people dead? Are blind people dead? Are slaves dead?
If those groups are unregenerate…yes.
Hoss
I guess I lean toward being a calvinist then, because that is the way I see it. “All that the Father gives to me SHALL come to me”.
Have you ever read Arthur W. Pinks books? He’s brilliant. I really think that unless a man is born again he cannot fully understand these truths.
So speaks the heresy called Calvinism. This reductio shows the utter bankruptcy of Calvinism. The man dead in trespasses and sins can drink the water of life (John 4), can eat the bread of life (John 6), can receive the power to become the sons of God (John 1), can believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, if he is willing. God made it possible.
We are saved because we believe. We do not believe because we are saved.
"And brought them out and said, "Sirs, what must I do to be saved?" And they said, "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved, and thy house." (Acts 16:30,31)
And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely. (Revelation 22:17)
This is the gospel pattern. A preacher preaches the word. The word is heard. The believer either allows Satan to snatch the seed out of his heart, or he believes it and it will be in him a well of water springing unto everlasting life. (John 4:14)
Not corpses (an utterly inaccurate analogy), but the walking dead, who do eat, who do drink and do believe a great many things--able, but unwilling.
Check out Paul Washer’s take on this-
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z5HlnSOuTvE
It’s only 2 minutes 43 seconds too.
I don't think I've ever met a Calvinist who didn't think he/she was elect.
Could God change His mind about you?
:)
11 And he said, “There was a man who had two sons. 12 And the younger of them said to his father, ‘Father, give me the share of property that is coming to me.’ And he divided his property between them. 13 Not many days later, the younger son gathered all he had and took a journey into a far country, and there he squandered his property in reckless living. 14 And when he had spent everything, a severe famine arose in that country, and he began to be in need. 15 So he went and hired himself out to one of the citizens of that country, who sent him into his fields to feed pigs. 16 And he was longing to be fed with the pods that the pigs ate, and no one gave him anything.
17 “But when he came to himself, he said, ‘How many of my father's hired servants have more than enough bread, but I perish here with hunger! 18 I will arise and go to my father, and I will say to him, “Father, I have sinned against heaven and before you. 19 I am no longer worthy to be called your son. Treat me as one of your hired servants.”’ 20 And he arose and came to his father. But while he was still a long way off, his father saw him and felt compassion, and ran and embraced him and kissed him. 21 And the son said to him, ‘Father, I have sinned against heaven and before you. I am no longer worthy to be called your son.’ 22 But the father said to his servants, ‘Bring quickly the best robe, and put it on him, and put a ring on his hand, and shoes on his feet. 23 And bring the fattened calf and kill it, and let us eat and celebrate. 24 For this my son was dead, and is alive again; he was lost, and is found.’ And they began to celebrate."
Of course, there is that little detail of perseverance, and I suppose I differ with some of my Reformed brethren on the point that we ought not presume and become complacent in running the race for that blessed crown. But the elect do, ultimately, persevere.
“So speaks the heresy called Calvinism. “
Heresy? Once upon the time, you were the heretic.
Spurgeon:
“[I]t is often said that the doctrines we believe have a tendency to lead us to sin....I ask the man who dares to say that Calvinism is a licentious religion, what he thinks of the character of Augustine, or Calvin, or Whitefield, who in successive ages were the great exponents of the systems of grace; or what will he say of the Puritans, whose works are full of them? Had a man been an Arminian in those days, he would have been accounted the vilest heretic breathing, but now we are looked upon as the heretics, and they as orthodox. We have gone back to the old school; we can trace our descent from the apostles....We can run a golden line up to Jesus Christ Himself, through a holy succession of mighty fathers, who all held these glorious truths; and we can ask concerning them, “Where will you find holier and better men in the world?””
“The man dead in trespasses and sins can drink the water of life (John 4), can eat the bread of life (John 6), can receive the power to become the sons of God (John 1), can believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, if he is willing. God made it possible.”
Without the Holy Spirit, no man can call Jesus the Christ.
1Co_12:3 Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost.
There is no one good, no one who seeks after God.
Rom 3:10-12 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one: (11) There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God. (12) They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.
“This is the gospel pattern.”
And what did Jesus say to those Jews who would not believe and who did not understand Him?
Joh 10:25-30 Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father’s name, they bear witness of me. (26) But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you. (27) My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: (28) And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. (29) My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father’s hand. (30) I and my Father are one.
Joh 6:43-44 Jesus therefore answered and said unto them, Murmur not among yourselves. (44) No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
Indeed, those who the Father has not given Him, cannot believe, cannot see, for they are in their sins, and their natural inclination is to deny Christ.
Joh 12:39-41 Therefore they could not believe, because that Esaias said again, (40) He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them. (41) These things said Esaias, when he saw his glory, and spake of him.
If we are IN CHRIST, we will safely cross to the far shore. But I don’t know how to get around passages like these:
“For it is impossible, in the case of those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, and have shared in the Holy Spirit, 5 and have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6 and then have fallen away, to restore them again to repentance, since they are crucifying once again the Son of God to their own harm and holding him up to contempt. 7 For land that has drunk the rain that often falls on it, and produces a crop useful to those for whose sake it is cultivated, receives a blessing from God. 8 But if it bears thorns and thistles, it is worthless and near to being cursed, and its end is to be burned.”
“11-15 “This is what the parable means. The seed is the message of God. The seed sown by the roadside represents those who hear the message, and then the devil comes and takes it away from their hearts so that they cannot believe it and be saved. That sown on the rock represents those who accept the message with great delight when they hear it, but have no real root. They believe for a little while but when the time of temptation comes, they lose faith...”
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