Posted on 11/02/2012 4:50:22 AM PDT by NYer
I have blogged before on Purgatory. For example here: Purgatory – Biblical and Reasonable. I have also provided a PDF document on the Biblical roots of the teaching here: PDF Document on Purgatory .
On this Feast of All Souls I want to reflect on Purgatory as the necessary result of a promise. Many people think of purgatory primarily in terms of punishment, but it is also important to think of it in terms of promise, purity and perfection. Some of our deceased brethren are having the promises to them perfected in purgatory. In the month of November we are especially committed to praying for them and know by faith that our prayers are of benefit to them.
What is the Promise which points to Purgatory? Simply stated, Jesus Made the promise in Matt 5:48: You, Therefore, must be perfect as you Heavenly Father is perfect. Now in this promise is an astonishing declaration of our dignity. We are to share in the very nature and perfection of God. This is our dignity: that we are called to reflect and possess the very glory and perfection of God.
St. Catherine of Siena was gifted by the Lord to see a heavenly soul in the state of grace and her account of it is related in her Dialogue. It is here summarized In the Sunday School Teacher’s Explanation of the Baltimore Catechism:
The Soul in the State of Grace- Catherine of Siena was permitted by God to see the beauty of a soul in the state of grace. It was so beautiful that she could not look on it; the brightness of that soul dazzled her. Blessed Raymond, her confessor, asked her to describe to him, as far as she was able, the beauty of the soul she had seen. St. Catherine thought of the sweet light of that morning, and of the beautiful colors of the rainbow, but that soul was far more beautiful. She remembered the dazzling beams of the noonday sun, but the light which beamed from that soul was far brighter. She thought of the pure whiteness of the lily and of the fresh snow, but that is only an earthly whiteness. The soul she had seen was bright with the whiteness of Heaven, such as there is not to be found on earth. ” My father,” she answered. “I cannot find anything in this world that can give you the smallest idea of what I have seen. Oh, if you could but see the beauty of a soul in the state of grace, you would sacrifice your life a thousand times for its salvation. I asked the angel who was with me what had made that soul so beautiful, and he answered me, “It is the image and likeness of God in that soul, and the Divine Grace which made it so beautiful.” [1].
Yes, this is our dignity and final destiny if we are faithful to God.
So, I ask you, “Are you there yet?” God has made you a promise. But what if it is not yet fulfilled and you were to die today without the divine perfection you are promised yet completed? I can only say for myself that, if I were to die today, as far as I know I am not aware of mortal sin. But I am also aware of not being perfect. I am not even close to being humanly perfect, let alone having the perfection of the heavenly Father!
But Jesus made me a promise: You must be perfect as the heavenly Father is perfect. And the last time I checked, Jesus is a promise keeper!. St. Paul says, May God who has begun a good work in you bring it to completion. (Phil 1:6). Hence, If I were to die today, Jesus would need to complete a work that he has begun in me. By God’s grace, I have come a mighty long way. But I have a long way to go. God is very holy and his perfection is beyond imagining.
Yes, there are many things in us that need purging. Sins, and attachments to sin. Worldly clingings, and those rough edges to our personality. Likewise most of us carry with us hurts, regrets, sorrows and disappointments. We cannot take any of this to heaven with us. It wouldn’t be heaven. So the Lord, who is faithful to his promise, will purge all of this from us. The Book of Revelation speaks of Jesus ministering to the dead in that he will wipe every tear from their eyes (Rev 21:4). 1 Corithians 3:13-15 speaks of us as passing through fire in order that our works be tested and that what is good may be purified and what is worldly may be burned away. Job said, But he knows the way that I take; and when he has tested me, I will come forth as pure gold (Job 23:10).
Purgatory has to be – Yes, gold, pure gold, refined, perfect and pure gold. Purgatory has to be if God’s promises are to hold.
Catholic Theology has always taken God seriously on his promise that we would actually be perfect as the Father is perfect. The righteousness is Jesus’ righteousness, but it actually transforms us and changes us completely in the way that St. Catherine describes above. It is a real righteousness, not merely imputed, not merely declared of us by inference. It is not an alien justice, but a personal justice, by the grace of God.
Esse quam videri – Purgatory makes sense because perfection promised us is real: Esse quam videri (To be rather than to seem). We must actually be purged of the last vestiges of imperfection, worldliness, sin and sorrows. And, having been made perfect by the grace of God, we are able to enter heaven of which Scripture says, Nothing impure will ever enter it (Rev 21:27). And again, you have approached Mount Zion and the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and countless angels in festal gathering, and the assembly of the firstborn enrolled in heaven, and God the judge of all, and the souls of the just made perfect (Heb 12:22-23).
How could it be anything less? – Indeed, the souls of the just made perfect. How could it be anything less if Jesus died to accomplish it for us? Purgatory makes sense based on the promise of Jesus and the power of his blood to accomplished complete and total perfection for us. This is our dignity, this is our destiny. Purgatory is about promises not mere punishments. There’s an old Gospel hymn that says, “O Lord I’m running, trying to make a hundred. Ninety-nine and half won’t do!”
That’s right, 99 1/2 won’t do. Nothing less than 100 is possible since we have the promise of Jesus and the wonder working power of the precious blood of the Lamb. For most, if not all of us, purgatory has to be.
Purgatory has ample Scriptural support as Salvation pointed out in Post #20. If you had a complete Bible you might have known that.
Peace be with you
Thanks for reply. I agreed have politely discussed the premise with a few Mormon friends what was really going there in the scripture.
I usually get some weird convoluted explanation that is out of context and can’t be supported anywhere else in the Bible.
They willingly don’t get the concept that a truth in the Bible is always corroborated elsewhere.
Still fun to discuss.
Ample Scriptural support in post 20? That is just one text and of problematic support and only for praying for the dead, as stated in post. 28.
And if i had a complete Bible is might have know that text? I hardly think by now that your suppose i am am that unlearned, but that is your old sarcaustic form, and which would provide more warrant for a purgatory if salvation was thru such than the the arguments attempted for it. See #26 and http://peacebyjesus.witnesstoday.org/Contentions_Purgatory.html where i deal with far more.
Happy reading and pondering.
I have no intentions in rewarding yet another attempt to pimp a blog.
Oh yes, “Scripture-Catholic, who feels at liberty to attempt to wrest support from Scripture to support traditions of men to the point that he examples irreverence of Scripture, as he did in his attempt to support claims for the Mary of Rome (http://peacebyjesus.witnesstoday.org/MarySC.html), and which traditions do not even rest upon the weight of Scriptural warrant.
I have already refuted such attempts to support purgatory, and 1Cor. 3 for one cannot refer to purgatory as it takes place at the Lord’s return, while the suffering refers to the lost of rewards, which a soul is saved despite of, not because of. As was shown in a previous lengthy FR exchange.
You would not, and it is not.
So will you apologize to me if you find you are on your way to Purgatory at the moment of your death? LOL!
As you go with your accuser before the magistrate, make an effort to settle with him on the way, lest he drag you to the judge, and the judge hand you over to the officer, and the officer put you in prison. "I tell you, you will never get out till you have paid the very last copper." (Luke 12:58-59)
1 Corintians 3
11 For no other foundation can any one lay than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
12 Now if any one builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw--
13 each man's work will become manifest; for the Day will disclose it, because it will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test what sort of work each one has done.
14 If the work which any man has built on the foundation survives, he will receive a reward.
15 If any man's work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire.
The suffering leading to salvation that St. Paul refers to cannot be hell, since no one there can leave, but it must be another place: a place of temporary suffering-- purgatory.
Since we know from Scripture that our place of "purgation" is the cross of Jesus Christ, and that by his offering we are forever perfected, then, NO, Purgatory does NOT have to be. When Jesus said, "Be ye perfect as your Father in heaven is perfect.", he could not possibly have meant a perfection that can be attained BY a human - we were born in sin and come from the womb already at enmity with God. We must have the righteousness, the perfection OF God, to be in His presence. The doctrine of Purgatory says that the blood of Jesus Christ is insufficient to completely cleanse us of all sin - contradicting God's word which says it DOES. We are made perfect through faith IN Christ and it is HIS righteousness that is imputed to us when we receive God's gift of eternal life.
To believe in Purgatory one must also believe that he merits salvation by his works and Scripture clearly teaches it is either GRACE or WORKS, not both. It is really too bad that the Catholic Church allowed this insipid dogma to creep into the Gospel. It totally negates the Gospel - the GOOD NEWS that Christ has died for us and by believing in Him we are saved.
Amen!
It never ceases to astound me that your religion misquotes the scriptures left and right and none of you are the wiser...That's why your religion can not compare scripture with scripture to find the truth that is the scriptures...
But then who says they are looking for scriptural truth...
1Co 3:15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.
There's a whole big world of difference between 'through fire' and 'by fire'...
We do not go thru fire as your religion demands...We are saved 'by fire'; fire that burns up our bad works but does not touch us...No purgatory...
The suffering leading to salvation that St. Paul refers to cannot be hell, since no one there can leave, but it must be another place: a place of temporary suffering-- purgatory.
Again, Paul doesn't refer to a place of physical suffering...
As you go with your accuser before the magistrate, make an effort to settle with him on the way, lest he drag you to the judge, and the judge hand you over to the officer, and the officer put you in prison. "I tell you, you will never get out till you have paid the very last copper." (Luke 12:58-59)
I am glad that you guys accept that your purgatory is a prison...The only purgatory in the scriptures is the one on the other side of Paradise...Where the rich man of the scriptures resides...
< Mat 18:29 And his fellowservant fell down at his feet, and besought him, saying, Have patience with me, and I will pay thee all.
Mat 18:30 And he would not: but went and cast him into prison, till he should pay the debt.
Mat 18:31 So when his fellowservants saw what was done, they were very sorry, and came and told unto their lord all that was done.
Mat 18:32 Then his lord, after that he had called him, said unto him, O thou wicked servant, I forgave thee all that debt, because thou desiredst me:
Mat 18:33 Shouldest not thou also have had compassion on thy fellowservant, even as I had pity on thee?
Mat 18:34 And his lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors, till he should pay all that was due unto him.
In your biblical purgatory, you guys are delivered to the tormentors...And that ain't Jesus...The references you give for purgatory are for the tormentors in Hell...
And the implication that you will stay there till all is paid is that it will never be all paid...
But you are in luck...No one will have to go to your purgatory...Jesus died for all of our sins and wiped our slates clean...Just call on him by name and ask him to be your Savior...
You wrote:
“You’re making a logical fallacy - false comparison. You’re attempting to equate non-Doctrinal terms with a Doctrinal term”
False. Purgatory is no more a doctrinal term than Trinity - less so in fact.
“While the Trinity (as a doctrine) is not called “the Trinity” in scripture, we see its definition over and over again in the term “Godhead” (Acts 17, Romans 1, Col 2).”
False. We see no definition at all in scripture. All we are told in scripture is that there is a Father, Son and Holy Spirit and all are divine. The rest we surmise, deduce. The same with purgatory. 2 Maccabees 12 gives us plenty to deduce from. As does 1 Corinthians 3.
“(sigh) You do realize that Jesus’ death and resurrection is what NEGATES THE POSSIBILITY of “Purgatory”, right?”
No, nor can you show that either. The idea that there’s no possibility of purgatory is bizarre. Jesus makes purgatory possible and our own nature makes it necessary.
You then make the same mistake as before. You forget that Jesus’ grace works in purgatory.
“The last one was, “It is finished” (John 19:30), and not “I’m done here, but you still need to atone for your sins to be made perfect.””
And if you would think you would realize that Jesus being finished with His sacrifice in no way meant WE WERE FINISHED receiving its benefits. It is amwazing to me how Protestants can always be so shortsighted as to think Jesus’ death meant the end of the benefits of Christ’s sacrifice for men and yet still believe - at the same time - that they recieve those benefits 2,000 years later. The illogic of that stance is stunning. Clearly, when Jesus was finished, we were not. He still helps us now.
“This is, essentially, the same old ‘Catholic vs. other Christian beliefs’ argument that has existed since the the years after Christ’s ascension and the church began to spread.”
No. Catholic and Christian are synonymous. This is a johnny-come-lately Protestant rebellion against the truth of Christ and the power of His grace.
“Christ is either God (i.e. part of the triune Godhead) or He is not. Therefore, His death was either all-sufficient, or it was not.”
And there you go. What is most frustrating about these “discussions” is the outright stupidity of Protestants. I’ll explain this again for your benefit: Christ’s sacrifice was ENTIRELY SUFFICIENT. Its sufficiency is what makes purgatory possible. Just as Jesus’s sacrifice was so sufficient that you and I can be saved by it 2,000 years later, it is so sufficient that those souls which need final theosis after death can receive it. For you to say this:
“”Christ is either God (i.e. part of the triune Godhead) or He is not. Therefore, His death was either all-sufficient, or it was not. [and therefore no purgatory can exist]”
is just as stupid as if someone said this:
“Christ is either God (i.e. part of the triune Godhead) or He is not. Therefore, His death was either all-sufficient, or it was not. Thus, it can only save people in Jesus’ own day”
“Man, however, keeps wanting to add to this - hence the idea of Purgatory, because salvation by the remission of sins apparently doesn’t clean us up enough to stand before a Holy God. Guess what? NOTHING that we attempt to do, no “pennance”, no amount of time to correct our wrongs, no matter how sorry we are ... nothing can ever be enough to get us to a point where our righteousness is enough to stand in God’s presence. It is ONLY through Christ that we can accomplish this. Christ alone.”
Exactly, hence purgatory. Christ’s grace powers purgatory. Not me, not you, only Christ’s grace. I don’t mind that you oppose the doctrine. What is frustrating is that you oppose a doctrine that exists only in your head and the heads of other people who also have no idea what they are talking about. Christ’s grace makes purgatory possible. Christ’s grace powers purgatory.
“Clearly, I know all about what Purgatory is and what it isn’t”
Clearly you don’t. Again, you keep claiming - falsely - that it is WE who make purgaory. Nope. It’s God. Christ’s grace. You’re insisting something is when it isn’t. You’re insisting we believe something we don’t actually believe. How can you now claim to know what you’re talking about? The hubris is stunning.
“I know that it is an idea concocted by man, and I know that there is no scriptural basis for it.”
You’re wrong on both counts.
“I pray that God continues to grant me more humility, and also more wisdom. I also pray that He continues to embolden me to confront unBiblical doctrines, and to encourage others to hear what the Bible says without seeking to add to it or to take away from it.”
It isn’t God who is leading you to oppose true doctrines by making your own false claims as to what they are.
I’m glad to see you vehemently oppose all those who cast the light of reason and sound scripture against the doctrines of your faith.
I’m sorry to see that it contrasts against a solid Biblical view of things. You are, of course, entitled to your opinion.
I’ll keep praying for us both.
Two quotes from Scripture:
As you go with your accuser before the magistrate, make an effort to settle with him on the way, lest he drag you to the judge, and the judge hand you over to the officer, and the officer put you in prison. "I tell you, you will never get out till you have paid the very last copper." (Luke 12:58-59)
First., note that the word rendered accuser here means adversary/opponent, and is part of a discourse which sets two parties apart, those who are faithful versus such as have have their “portion with the unbelievers,” (Lk. 12:35-46), and that punishment will be according to accountability, (Lk. 12:47,48; cf. Rv. 20:12-15) and between those who divide for Christ and those who divide in opposition to Him, (Lk. 12:51-53) and thus the need to be ready for the Judge. (Lk. 12:54-57)
And which brings us to Lk. 12:58-59 (cf. Mt. 5:23-26), which teaches that sentencing and retributive punishment for crimes against one's adversary will be until justice is satisfied, that being the purpose of “till,” teaching that judgment is according to truth (cf. Rm. 2:2) in proportion to guilt. But which judgment in the above texts and the previous chapter, (Lk. 11:29-32, 48-51) is a judgment applied to the lost as concerns retributive punishment (and in the parallel story of Mt. 5:23-26 this is preceded by a warning of hell fire, and to not reconcile with God, but continue impenitence after being convicted of sin, is a denial of faith), and which punishment in the spiritual realm of the afterlife is shown as being eternal. (1Thes. 1:8,9; Mt. 25:41,46; Rv. 14:11; 20:10-15) Thus “Till thou hast paid the very last mite” no more teaches that Divine justice will be satisfied for those who are adversaries to God then the wages of sin being death (Rm. 6:23) teaches annihilationism.
As opposed to clear texts which place believers with the Lord upon death (see further on, and clear texts interpret ambiguous ones), with this text and similar ones you can only hope to extrapolate support for purgatory based upon the premise that sin must be atoned for and the believer be made absolutely perfect, which i dealt with already in post 26, and which idea requires redefining salvation as to mean progressing to a state of being just enough by moral perfection to be with the Lord, and that being absent from the body means present in purgatory, not with the Lord, contrary to what is expressly stated. And which is akin to placing one under the Law, (Gal. 3:10) versus justification by imputed righteousness appropriated by a faith which effects holiness.
Those who lack characteristic practical holiness in the obedience of faith, which (like David) includes repentance when convicted of sin, (2Sam. 12; 1Jn. 1:7-9) but who assent to a different gospel (such as based upon morally earning it: Gal. 5:1-4) or who deny the faith (1Tim. 5:8) by knowingly continuing impenitently in sin, departing from the living God, (Heb. 3:6,12,14; 10:25-39) evidence they have rejected true faith (or never had it) and will be lost if they die in that state, and not go to purgatory.
But the realty is that the for true believer, God is not his “adversary” seeking vengeance, who locks souls up upon departing from this life in a place of “torments” until justice is satisfied, and until he gain the perfection of character needed to to be with the Lord, but Christ is his advocate who has satisfied Divine justice, and made him to sit in heaven, (Eph. 2:6) from where he looks forward to the Lord's coming, (Phil. 3:21) and only has him as being with the Lord after death wherever the NT clearly describes that event.
And while in this life he can be chastised for sin by God, who works thereby to make keep one in the faith (or bring him back) and grow in grace, (1Cor. 11:32; Heb. 12) and who rewards faith, (Heb. 10:35) yet the only postmortem consequences for how a believer lived his life (Rm. 14:10-12; 2Cor. 5:10) is that seen in the judgment of believers in 1 Cor. 3. And which only occurs at the Lord's coming, not commencing at death! And in which the only postmortem suffering of the saints is that of the loss of rewards, and which would also be the realizing the Lord's disapproval. However meeting the Lord's disapproval will not be a light thing, part of which I surmise will be the grief at realizing how much our lack in “the obedience of faith” cost souls and robbed God of the glory we and they could have given to their sacrificial Lord and Savior.
And as concerning 1Cor. 3, I have dealt with this attempt extensively here, as in this thread, and the fact that 1Cor. 3 is invoked as teaching "a place of temporary suffering-- purgatory" — and which actual text on the judgment of believers the doctrine of purgatory desperately needs if it will be proposed as Scriptural — is an example of the liberty RCs need and have in resorting to wresting support from anything that speaks of fire burning things up, even if it means being “more Catholic” than their contemporary church by invoking texts she officially does not.
The approved notes in your official Bible states, “The text of 1 Cor 3:15 has sometimes been used to support the notion of purgatory, though it does not envisage this.” (http://usccb.org/bible/scripture.cfm?bk=1%20Corinthians&ch=3) Your catechism only invokes 1Cor. 3:15 (along with 1Pt.1:7) and only to support fire being cleansing. (http://www.vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p123a12.htm)
Bellarmine stated that “there are six opinions.” on 1 Corinthians 3:11-15, as Haydoc affirms. Augustine (cp. 68) has the fire referring to this life. (Not that i think so-called “church fathers” are determinative in doctrine.)
Aquinas said that “nothing is clearly stated in Scripture about the situation of Purgatory, nor is it possible to offer convincing arguments on this question,” (Thomas Aquinas, Summa Theologica, Appendix II (Purgatory), Article 2) although he tried to provide such.
In addition, the Eastern Orthodox reject the purgatory of Roman Catholicism, though they, like here, are a church and tradition-based faith.
However as said to you and ignored, 1Cor. 3 "cannot refer to purgatory as it takes place at the Lord’s return, while the suffering refers to the lost of rewards, which a soul is saved despite of, not because of it.”
As explained by me more fully here,
The fire is not about making expiation for sin and or being personally purified (likely for an extended time) upon departing from this life as per the doctrine of purgatory, but instead this judgment is when the Lord returns (see below), and the fire consumes the false building material - with the believer being saved despite this burning, not because of it (1Cor. 3:15) - and the suffering is the consequential suffering of loss of rewards (1Cor. 3:15) and the Lord's disapproval for building the church with bad material, versus stones like Peter who efectually confessed the Lord Jesus.
The fire burns up the fake stones, which like the tares of Mt. 13:40 at the end, are represented here as wood, hay or stubble, while the precious stones with fire-tried faith (1Pt. 1:7) endure, and gain rewards for the instruments of their faithfulness. Thus Paul says to the Thessalonians, "For what is our hope, or joy, or crown of rejoicing? Are not even ye in the presence of our Lord Jesus Christ at his coming? " (1 Thess. 2:19; cf. Rv. 3:11) And to the Corinthians, “we are your rejoicing, even as ye also are ours in the day of the Lord Jesus.” 2Cor. 1:14) And to the Philippians, that being “my joy and crown, so stand fast in the Lord, my dearly beloved.” (Phil. 4:1)
And which texts and others reveal that the judgment of believers which 1 Cor. 3 describes only takes place at His return, (1Cor. 4:5; 2Tim. 4:1,8; Rev.11:18; Mt. 25:21-23; 1Pt. 1:7; 5:4) (click the versus) versus purgatory, which has souls suffering upon death.
Thus the fire here [in 1Cor. 3) burns up works, and does not purifies souls, and occurs at the Lord;s coming, and the latter fact alone disallows 1Cor 3 from actually referring to purgatory.
And while the tormented postmortem state of the lost is clear, in accordance with accountability, and relevant to grace given, the clear references to the postmortem place of the elect is that they are with the Lord.
Not only would the penitent criminal go to "paradise" (Lk. 23:43; cf. 2Cor. 12:4; Rv. 2:7) as well as Paul and be with the Lord upon their passing, (Phil 1:23; 2Cor. 5:8: “we”) but so would every resurrected/raptured Corinthian (1Cor. 15:51ff) or Thessalonian, “to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.” (1Thess. 4:17) even though the former in particular were in need of greater purification, (2Cor. 7:1) though not all were believers. (2Cor. 13:5)
Expressed more fully, The apostle Paul, while he told the Philippians that was he not “already perfect,” (Phil. 3:12) was yet torn by two desires, “to depart, and to be with Christ; which is far better ,or to abide in the flesh to minister to the saints. (Phil. 1:23,24)
Likewise he stated to the Corinthians, "We [plural] are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord." (2 Corinthians 5:8)
In addition, the Thessalonians, which were still undergoing growth in grace toward perfection, were assured that if the Lord returned, which they expected in their lifetime, so would they “ever be with the Lord.” (1Thes. 4:17)
And while the Corinthian believers were certainly not fully mature, yet the apostle taught that at the Lord's return then that is when they would be like the Lord, (1Cor. 15:49-57) at which appearance is when believers will fully be made perfect. (1Jn. 3:2)
To which is added the contrite confessing criminal on the cross who went to be with the Lord upon his physical death, (Lk. 23:43; cf. 2Cor. 12:4; Rv. 2:7) as did Stephen. (Acts 7:59)
And we may be certain that the contrite confessing criminal had not yet attained moral perfection, which is one reason given for purgatory, the other being the need to atone for sins which the believer was not sufficiently chastised for in this life in compensating for them, and thus Rome teaches that such must atone for “in the life beyond through fire and torments or purifying' punishments.” (Indulgentiarum Doctrina; cp. 1. 1967)
Furthermore, Scripture only reveals growth in grace and overcoming as being realized in this world, with its temptations and trials, (1 Peter 1:6-7; 1Jn.2:14; 5:4,5; Rv. 2.7,11,17,26; 3:5,12,21) where alternatives to submitting to God can be made (suffering itself does not make one mature) and thus it was here that the Lord Himself was made “perfect,” (Heb. 2:10) as in being “in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.” (Heb. 4:15)
As for other versus, these also have been refuted as teaching purgatory. Now i must cover windows with plastic to keep the cold out. Global warming (not the Divine kind) is welcome.
You wrote:
“I’m glad to see you vehemently oppose all those who cast the light of reason and sound scripture against the doctrines of your faith.”
I am the one shining the light of reason here. Remember, I’m actually the one who knows what purgatory is - unlike those posting against it. Also, no one is refuting any verses I am posting and none stand against the idea of purgatory.
“I’m sorry to see that it contrasts against a solid Biblical view of things. You are, of course, entitled to your opinion.”
Purgatory is not an opinion. It is a fact and a necessity.
“I’ll keep praying for us both.”
Thanks. Lean heavily on praying for yourself. In this area you need those prayers more than I do.
Since there is no purgatory, there will be no need for it.
I suppose that it’ll do no harm to all those Catholics who die and suffer torment when they’re really in hell, to convince themselves that it’s really just purgatory and it will end some day. They’ll need something to hang their hats on.
Even though the Apostle Paul praised the "noble" Bereans for searching the Scriptures to verify if what they were being taught was true, it seems some Catholics here see such diligence as "stupid" or even sinful, but I believe we know about the Bereans for a reason. God said, "Come and let us reason together." not, "Turn off your brain and swallow whatever you're told."
I know that you have put a lot of study and thought into your work. I just wanted to tell you how much I appreciate it.
Testing the genuineness of the works we did is not the same as suffering to purge us from sin.
The only solution to sin is death. Without the shedding of blood, there is NO forgiveness of sins.
Suffering does NOT pay for sin because suffering is NOT the shedding of blood.
The only way our sins are dealt with is forgiveness. If they’re forgiven, they’re forgiven, we don’t need to suffer for that which we’ve been forgiven from.
Of course purgatory feeds into the works based salvation taught by Rome.
The death of Jesus didn’t actually atone for anyone. He just opened the door to allow poor wretches the chance to work their way in, maybe.
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