As you go with your accuser before the magistrate, make an effort to settle with him on the way, lest he drag you to the judge, and the judge hand you over to the officer, and the officer put you in prison. "I tell you, you will never get out till you have paid the very last copper." (Luke 12:58-59)
1 Corintians 3
11 For no other foundation can any one lay than that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
12 Now if any one builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw--
13 each man's work will become manifest; for the Day will disclose it, because it will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test what sort of work each one has done.
14 If the work which any man has built on the foundation survives, he will receive a reward.
15 If any man's work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire.
The suffering leading to salvation that St. Paul refers to cannot be hell, since no one there can leave, but it must be another place: a place of temporary suffering-- purgatory.
It never ceases to astound me that your religion misquotes the scriptures left and right and none of you are the wiser...That's why your religion can not compare scripture with scripture to find the truth that is the scriptures...
But then who says they are looking for scriptural truth...
1Co 3:15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.
There's a whole big world of difference between 'through fire' and 'by fire'...
We do not go thru fire as your religion demands...We are saved 'by fire'; fire that burns up our bad works but does not touch us...No purgatory...
The suffering leading to salvation that St. Paul refers to cannot be hell, since no one there can leave, but it must be another place: a place of temporary suffering-- purgatory.
Again, Paul doesn't refer to a place of physical suffering...
As you go with your accuser before the magistrate, make an effort to settle with him on the way, lest he drag you to the judge, and the judge hand you over to the officer, and the officer put you in prison. "I tell you, you will never get out till you have paid the very last copper." (Luke 12:58-59)
I am glad that you guys accept that your purgatory is a prison...The only purgatory in the scriptures is the one on the other side of Paradise...Where the rich man of the scriptures resides...
< Mat 18:29 And his fellowservant fell down at his feet, and besought him, saying, Have patience with me, and I will pay thee all.
Mat 18:30 And he would not: but went and cast him into prison, till he should pay the debt.
Mat 18:31 So when his fellowservants saw what was done, they were very sorry, and came and told unto their lord all that was done.
Mat 18:32 Then his lord, after that he had called him, said unto him, O thou wicked servant, I forgave thee all that debt, because thou desiredst me:
Mat 18:33 Shouldest not thou also have had compassion on thy fellowservant, even as I had pity on thee?
Mat 18:34 And his lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors, till he should pay all that was due unto him.
In your biblical purgatory, you guys are delivered to the tormentors...And that ain't Jesus...The references you give for purgatory are for the tormentors in Hell...
And the implication that you will stay there till all is paid is that it will never be all paid...
But you are in luck...No one will have to go to your purgatory...Jesus died for all of our sins and wiped our slates clean...Just call on him by name and ask him to be your Savior...
Two quotes from Scripture:
As you go with your accuser before the magistrate, make an effort to settle with him on the way, lest he drag you to the judge, and the judge hand you over to the officer, and the officer put you in prison. "I tell you, you will never get out till you have paid the very last copper." (Luke 12:58-59)
First., note that the word rendered accuser here means adversary/opponent, and is part of a discourse which sets two parties apart, those who are faithful versus such as have have their “portion with the unbelievers,” (Lk. 12:35-46), and that punishment will be according to accountability, (Lk. 12:47,48; cf. Rv. 20:12-15) and between those who divide for Christ and those who divide in opposition to Him, (Lk. 12:51-53) and thus the need to be ready for the Judge. (Lk. 12:54-57)
And which brings us to Lk. 12:58-59 (cf. Mt. 5:23-26), which teaches that sentencing and retributive punishment for crimes against one's adversary will be until justice is satisfied, that being the purpose of “till,” teaching that judgment is according to truth (cf. Rm. 2:2) in proportion to guilt. But which judgment in the above texts and the previous chapter, (Lk. 11:29-32, 48-51) is a judgment applied to the lost as concerns retributive punishment (and in the parallel story of Mt. 5:23-26 this is preceded by a warning of hell fire, and to not reconcile with God, but continue impenitence after being convicted of sin, is a denial of faith), and which punishment in the spiritual realm of the afterlife is shown as being eternal. (1Thes. 1:8,9; Mt. 25:41,46; Rv. 14:11; 20:10-15) Thus “Till thou hast paid the very last mite” no more teaches that Divine justice will be satisfied for those who are adversaries to God then the wages of sin being death (Rm. 6:23) teaches annihilationism.
As opposed to clear texts which place believers with the Lord upon death (see further on, and clear texts interpret ambiguous ones), with this text and similar ones you can only hope to extrapolate support for purgatory based upon the premise that sin must be atoned for and the believer be made absolutely perfect, which i dealt with already in post 26, and which idea requires redefining salvation as to mean progressing to a state of being just enough by moral perfection to be with the Lord, and that being absent from the body means present in purgatory, not with the Lord, contrary to what is expressly stated. And which is akin to placing one under the Law, (Gal. 3:10) versus justification by imputed righteousness appropriated by a faith which effects holiness.
Those who lack characteristic practical holiness in the obedience of faith, which (like David) includes repentance when convicted of sin, (2Sam. 12; 1Jn. 1:7-9) but who assent to a different gospel (such as based upon morally earning it: Gal. 5:1-4) or who deny the faith (1Tim. 5:8) by knowingly continuing impenitently in sin, departing from the living God, (Heb. 3:6,12,14; 10:25-39) evidence they have rejected true faith (or never had it) and will be lost if they die in that state, and not go to purgatory.
But the realty is that the for true believer, God is not his “adversary” seeking vengeance, who locks souls up upon departing from this life in a place of “torments” until justice is satisfied, and until he gain the perfection of character needed to to be with the Lord, but Christ is his advocate who has satisfied Divine justice, and made him to sit in heaven, (Eph. 2:6) from where he looks forward to the Lord's coming, (Phil. 3:21) and only has him as being with the Lord after death wherever the NT clearly describes that event.
And while in this life he can be chastised for sin by God, who works thereby to make keep one in the faith (or bring him back) and grow in grace, (1Cor. 11:32; Heb. 12) and who rewards faith, (Heb. 10:35) yet the only postmortem consequences for how a believer lived his life (Rm. 14:10-12; 2Cor. 5:10) is that seen in the judgment of believers in 1 Cor. 3. And which only occurs at the Lord's coming, not commencing at death! And in which the only postmortem suffering of the saints is that of the loss of rewards, and which would also be the realizing the Lord's disapproval. However meeting the Lord's disapproval will not be a light thing, part of which I surmise will be the grief at realizing how much our lack in “the obedience of faith” cost souls and robbed God of the glory we and they could have given to their sacrificial Lord and Savior.
And as concerning 1Cor. 3, I have dealt with this attempt extensively here, as in this thread, and the fact that 1Cor. 3 is invoked as teaching "a place of temporary suffering-- purgatory" — and which actual text on the judgment of believers the doctrine of purgatory desperately needs if it will be proposed as Scriptural — is an example of the liberty RCs need and have in resorting to wresting support from anything that speaks of fire burning things up, even if it means being “more Catholic” than their contemporary church by invoking texts she officially does not.
The approved notes in your official Bible states, “The text of 1 Cor 3:15 has sometimes been used to support the notion of purgatory, though it does not envisage this.” (http://usccb.org/bible/scripture.cfm?bk=1%20Corinthians&ch=3) Your catechism only invokes 1Cor. 3:15 (along with 1Pt.1:7) and only to support fire being cleansing. (http://www.vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p123a12.htm)
Bellarmine stated that “there are six opinions.” on 1 Corinthians 3:11-15, as Haydoc affirms. Augustine (cp. 68) has the fire referring to this life. (Not that i think so-called “church fathers” are determinative in doctrine.)
Aquinas said that “nothing is clearly stated in Scripture about the situation of Purgatory, nor is it possible to offer convincing arguments on this question,” (Thomas Aquinas, Summa Theologica, Appendix II (Purgatory), Article 2) although he tried to provide such.
In addition, the Eastern Orthodox reject the purgatory of Roman Catholicism, though they, like here, are a church and tradition-based faith.
However as said to you and ignored, 1Cor. 3 "cannot refer to purgatory as it takes place at the Lord’s return, while the suffering refers to the lost of rewards, which a soul is saved despite of, not because of it.”
As explained by me more fully here,
The fire is not about making expiation for sin and or being personally purified (likely for an extended time) upon departing from this life as per the doctrine of purgatory, but instead this judgment is when the Lord returns (see below), and the fire consumes the false building material - with the believer being saved despite this burning, not because of it (1Cor. 3:15) - and the suffering is the consequential suffering of loss of rewards (1Cor. 3:15) and the Lord's disapproval for building the church with bad material, versus stones like Peter who efectually confessed the Lord Jesus.
The fire burns up the fake stones, which like the tares of Mt. 13:40 at the end, are represented here as wood, hay or stubble, while the precious stones with fire-tried faith (1Pt. 1:7) endure, and gain rewards for the instruments of their faithfulness. Thus Paul says to the Thessalonians, "For what is our hope, or joy, or crown of rejoicing? Are not even ye in the presence of our Lord Jesus Christ at his coming? " (1 Thess. 2:19; cf. Rv. 3:11) And to the Corinthians, “we are your rejoicing, even as ye also are ours in the day of the Lord Jesus.” 2Cor. 1:14) And to the Philippians, that being “my joy and crown, so stand fast in the Lord, my dearly beloved.” (Phil. 4:1)
And which texts and others reveal that the judgment of believers which 1 Cor. 3 describes only takes place at His return, (1Cor. 4:5; 2Tim. 4:1,8; Rev.11:18; Mt. 25:21-23; 1Pt. 1:7; 5:4) (click the versus) versus purgatory, which has souls suffering upon death.
Thus the fire here [in 1Cor. 3) burns up works, and does not purifies souls, and occurs at the Lord;s coming, and the latter fact alone disallows 1Cor 3 from actually referring to purgatory.
And while the tormented postmortem state of the lost is clear, in accordance with accountability, and relevant to grace given, the clear references to the postmortem place of the elect is that they are with the Lord.
Not only would the penitent criminal go to "paradise" (Lk. 23:43; cf. 2Cor. 12:4; Rv. 2:7) as well as Paul and be with the Lord upon their passing, (Phil 1:23; 2Cor. 5:8: “we”) but so would every resurrected/raptured Corinthian (1Cor. 15:51ff) or Thessalonian, “to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.” (1Thess. 4:17) even though the former in particular were in need of greater purification, (2Cor. 7:1) though not all were believers. (2Cor. 13:5)
Expressed more fully, The apostle Paul, while he told the Philippians that was he not “already perfect,” (Phil. 3:12) was yet torn by two desires, “to depart, and to be with Christ; which is far better ,or to abide in the flesh to minister to the saints. (Phil. 1:23,24)
Likewise he stated to the Corinthians, "We [plural] are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord." (2 Corinthians 5:8)
In addition, the Thessalonians, which were still undergoing growth in grace toward perfection, were assured that if the Lord returned, which they expected in their lifetime, so would they “ever be with the Lord.” (1Thes. 4:17)
And while the Corinthian believers were certainly not fully mature, yet the apostle taught that at the Lord's return then that is when they would be like the Lord, (1Cor. 15:49-57) at which appearance is when believers will fully be made perfect. (1Jn. 3:2)
To which is added the contrite confessing criminal on the cross who went to be with the Lord upon his physical death, (Lk. 23:43; cf. 2Cor. 12:4; Rv. 2:7) as did Stephen. (Acts 7:59)
And we may be certain that the contrite confessing criminal had not yet attained moral perfection, which is one reason given for purgatory, the other being the need to atone for sins which the believer was not sufficiently chastised for in this life in compensating for them, and thus Rome teaches that such must atone for “in the life beyond through fire and torments or purifying' punishments.” (Indulgentiarum Doctrina; cp. 1. 1967)
Furthermore, Scripture only reveals growth in grace and overcoming as being realized in this world, with its temptations and trials, (1 Peter 1:6-7; 1Jn.2:14; 5:4,5; Rv. 2.7,11,17,26; 3:5,12,21) where alternatives to submitting to God can be made (suffering itself does not make one mature) and thus it was here that the Lord Himself was made “perfect,” (Heb. 2:10) as in being “in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.” (Heb. 4:15)
As for other versus, these also have been refuted as teaching purgatory. Now i must cover windows with plastic to keep the cold out. Global warming (not the Divine kind) is welcome.
Testing the genuineness of the works we did is not the same as suffering to purge us from sin.
The only solution to sin is death. Without the shedding of blood, there is NO forgiveness of sins.
Suffering does NOT pay for sin because suffering is NOT the shedding of blood.
The only way our sins are dealt with is forgiveness. If they’re forgiven, they’re forgiven, we don’t need to suffer for that which we’ve been forgiven from.