Posted on 03/18/2012 6:38:49 PM PDT by EnglishCon
A few people asked me to write this, after a couple of comments I made on another thread. The first few chapters of Genesis are, with minimal mental gymnastics, a clear and accurate statement of science, as we understand it today.
I am not talking from any particular creed here. Though a Catholic, (and without any authority!), I am from a background of a devout Protestant and much less devout Jewish culture who is, like many people, simply looking for answers. My training was as a Biochemist, at a time when we were first starting to map the genome. So, feel free to take this with a grain of salt, or a bargeload. This is not doctrine. Not meant to persuade or compell people to my views. Heck, I am still working out my views! My faith is solid. So is, to me, the evidence.
It is simply to analyse Genesis under the same scientific method that nuclear physics is examined. I will, for clarity, be using the King James Bible, available on-line at http://etext.virginia.edu/toc/modeng/public/KjvGene.html, as it is the version most people both know and accept. I will be simplifying some concepts - not losing the core concept, but trying to make them accessible. And please forgive me for any formatting screw-ups, I am more used to writing and passing things on to editors!
Genesis 1
1: In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. 2: And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters. 3: And God said, Let there be light: and there was light. 4: And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness. 5: And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day.
Verse 3 is the core of the story here. "Let there be light." According to current cosmological theories, roughly 13.7 billion years ago, there was nothing at all. Without form and void in truth - there was no space, no time, nothing. Then that nothngness exploded. Why? We haven't got a clue. While we know it happened since the universe's background microwave radiation hum confirms that, We don't know why. We can never know why. Yet we know that the dark, formless universe exploded for no reason, creating it, and by extension us. We are told why, the word was spoken, and the universe in all it's glory was created.
6: And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters. 7: And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so. 8: And God called the firmament Heaven. And the evening and the morning were the second day.
Stars don't come from nothing. Nor do planets. We can see the slow, steady aggregation of gases into stars. We have pictures, again testifying to the glory of God. Stars form from clouds of hydrogen gas. The heavier elements get spun out and away from the protostar. Eventually, the star's gravitational field gets strong enough to light the star. It is another flare of light, with the sudden solar wind forcing the light gases well out and starting random aggregations of heavier elements spinning and collecting. Getting bigger while orbiting the star. Outer planets catch a lot of the gas blasted away when the star ignites. Inner planets are looking at the heavier stuff that doesn't shift much under light pressure.
9: And God said, Let the waters under the heaven be gathered together unto one place, and let the dry land appear: and it was so. 10: And God called the dry land Earth; and the gathering together of the waters called he Seas: and God saw that it was good. 11: And God said, Let the earth bring forth grass, the herb yielding seed, and the fruit tree yielding fruit after his kind, whose seed is in itself, upon the earth: and it was so. 12: And the earth brought forth grass, and herb yielding seed after his kind, and the tree yielding fruit, whose seed was in itself, after his kind: and God saw that it was good. 13: And the evening and the morning were the third day.
This is a twofer. A spinning ball of molten rock eventually cools down, though it keeps on spinning. There is water there. It can't escape, gravity is too strong. Something that hydrogen can do, water can not. It simply stays in the air as vapor, until the surface temperature cools to a level where it can condense and land. Then, of course, it finds the lowest level it can. You know the phrase "Water finds it's own level."
Our original atmosphere was totally unbreathable. That is in the rock record, not a guess. A mix of Nitrogen, Carbon Dioxide and Methane, a teeny bit of sulfur, with a tiny bit of Hydrogen and a mass of water vapor thrown in. Genesis mentions the seas for a reason. All life comes from the sea. The first life to creep out of the sea and onto the shore was plants.
14: And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years: 15: And let them be for lights in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth: and it was so. 16: And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: he made the stars also. 17: And God set them in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth, 18: And to rule over the day and over the night, and to divide the light from the darkness: and God saw that it was good. 19: And the evening and the morning were the fourth day.
OK, for this one I have to hit more rogue science than accepted science. I apologise for that. Roughly 3 billion years ago, after photosynthesis started, we got hit, hard. A huge blast of molten rock headed into orbit from the Pacific Basin like a homesick meteor and aggregated around our satellite. It is slightly rogue, but we know that lunar rock and Earth rock are identical. We have been there and checked. The rocks are identical.
20: And God said, Let the waters bring forth abundantly the moving creature that hath life, and fowl that may fly above the earth in the open firmament of heaven. 21: And God created great whales, and every living creature that moveth, which the waters brought forth abundantly, after their kind, and every winged fowl after his kind: and God saw that it was good. 22: And God blessed them, saying, Be fruitful, and multiply, and fill the waters in the seas, and let fowl multiply in the earth. 23: And the evening and the morning were the fifth day.
Every last living organism comes from the sea. Our blood chemistry proves it conclusively. Whether iron based or copper/magnesium based, if I take 10cc of blood from you, I can guarantee that the salt proportion is identical to the sea a couple of billion years or so ago. Again, there is no guess work involved, we have seas that have been dry for that long for comparison of the proportions. God is here clearly stating that we came from the sea. No get outs, no do overs. We even, if you want to be slightly fanciful, have a nod to dinosaurs. After all, they, or at least some of them, eventually became winged fowl.
24: And God said, Let the earth bring forth the living creature after his kind, cattle, and creeping thing, and beast of the earth after his kind: and it was so. 25: And God made the beast of the earth after his kind, and cattle after their kind, and every thing that creepeth upon the earth after his kind: and God saw that it was good. 26: And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth. 27: So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them. 28: And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth. 29: And God said, Behold, I have given you every herb bearing seed, which is upon the face of all the earth, and every tree, in the which is the fruit of a tree yielding seed; to you it shall be for meat. 30: And to every beast of the earth, and to every fowl of the air, and to every thing that creepeth upon the earth, wherein there is life, I have given every green herb for meat: and it was so. 31: And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day.
This is the difficult one. One that I have problems with, since evolution and this statement of the Word seem at first glance to be at odds. So I am going to repeat something. Forgive me for stretching slightly to make a point.
We don't breathe water. Yet we came from the sea - that is from both the Word itself and the evidence as we understand it. We see random action. He does not. By definition God gets no surprises, he sees the consequences of everything. As a side note, that must be boring. Never a single surprise unless you deliberately don't look. No wonder he gave us free will! (Sure, I know. Putting human motivations and limitations on the Lord is demeaning. It is also tempting.)
Still, look at the order we are given. Fish, Fowl, every other living thing third. The classic chain of evolution. Plants first and so basic that they are every living thing's meat. Without plants, we simply die. Fish to reptiles/amphibians. Reptiles to birds and mammals. Mammals to primacy under God.
This was fun to write. Difficult, as I am more a biosciences person than a physicist, but fun. If there is sufficient interest I will do the same for Genesis 2.
Once more, I want to repeat. I don't seek converts to my viewpoint. How can one do so, when their viewpoint is "This makes sense but I am guessing the mind of the unknowable here." If you firmly believe that the world was created 6000 years ago as it is, may His peace and blessing be upon you, and I apologise for wasting your time. Part of this is seeking to explain things to myself.
Yet I want to pre-emptively defend myself from some of the more common comments, as I am not a total fool. The universe, and all that is in it, works through fixed and immutable laws, as far as we are aware. Shift the numeric value of any major constant by under 1% and we are a dust of sub atomic particles. The presence of constants themselves are profound indicators of the creator. One of my professors, way back when university was a place to learn and not an indoctrination center, said the mere fact that universal constants exist is one of the strongest arguments for God.
By their works shall you know them. We are told that. By the Lord's works shall you know him. He laid out, in terms a person who has never heard of an electron or the speed of light or Planck's constant can understand, where we came from and how.
Thank you for reading. May he bless and uplift us all.
Definitions from Merriam-Webster for
firmament:
a.) air
b.) basis
c.) the field or sphere of an interest or activity.
So were Gen 1:6-7 using this rather vague definition and then switched to primary definition [air] in verse 8 and thereafter?
Black holes are theoretical mathematical objects. Essentially they are division by zero and nothing more.
These guys have a better grasp on how the universe actually works. Observable, testable, scalable... plasma.
Sounds like a fascinating question, but I’m not fully understanding it.
At times the word translated “firmament” in the KJV and other translations seems to be speaking of the expanse of the sky, the region under the “canopy” or “dome” at the edge of the atmosphere. At other times, it seems to be speaking merely of the vast region “up there” above us.
The ESV Study Bible explains:
“... it is difficult to find a single English word that accurately conveys the precise sense of the Hebrew term shamayim, “heaven/heavens.” In this context, it refers to what humans see above them, i.e., the regions that contains both celestial lights (vv. 14-17) and birds (v. 20).”
I did find the discussion of this concept at Wikipedia to be pretty fascinating: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Firmament
Maybe in the end, we should just think of “firmament” broadly as “space,” distinct from “stuff.”
Apparently even Sir Isaac Newton struggled with this possible poor translation. I prefer where Dr. Walt Brown PhD felt this lead ~ from my links page re:creationscience.com...
Genesis 1: 8a — Two Interpretations
Why then, does Genesis 1:8a state, “And God called the expanse heaven”? Here are two interpretations:
a. “The expanse” meant the atmosphere or outer space.
b. “The expanse” meant “heaven”—where God dwelt—the original paradise. Recall that God “walked” and “talked” with Adam (Genesis 3:8–9), so heaven was originally on the earth—or the earth’s crust.
If “heaven” meant atmosphere or outer space, then the Septuagint and Vulgate translators incorrectly associated solidness with it. Notice also that the similarities of raqia ((ayqirf) with baqia ((ayqib@f) and raqa ((qarf) support the second interpretation. [See page 447.] If raqia (expanse or firmament) always means atmosphere or outer space, five questions, or apparent textual contradictions, arise.
Question 1: Why was the word raqia followed by the phrase “of the heavens” in Genesis 1:14, 15, 17, and 20? That would be redundant.
Question 2: If raqia implies a canopy, why wasn’t one of the three Hebrew words that clearly means “canopy” used?
Question 3: Genesis 1:1 says that the heavens were created on the first day.19 However, if raqia always means “heaven” (atmosphere or outer space), then Genesis 1:8a says heaven was created on the second day. Also, Genesis 1:8a defines heaven after the word “heavens” was first used in Genesis 1:1. Normally a word’s meaning is understood from the context of its first usage.
Question 4: Genesis 1:9 states, “Let the waters below the heavens be gathered into one place, and let the dry land appear.” Obviously, these are earth’s surface waters. If “heaven” meant atmosphere or outer space and if “expanse” meant a canopy surrounding the earth, why would Genesis 1:9 not read, “Let the waters below be gathered into one place”? That would have been sufficient, clear, and consistent with the phrasing of Genesis 1:7, which relates the water’s two locations to the expanse. It would also make clear that the expanse (raqia) is above—not below—the surface waters. Instead, the text reads, “Let the waters below the heavens be gathered into one place.” The words “the heavens” apparently were added to make clear that surface waters were gathered into one place.
Question 5: Genesis 1:14 says the Sun, Moon, and stars (which fill the universe) were placed in the raqia of the heavens, and Genesis 1:7 says liquid water was placed above the raqia (as opposed to the raqia of the heavens). Does this mean that the raqia is the universe, and liquid water surrounded the universe?20
After struggling to understand Genesis 1:8a for 30 years, I described several possible interpretations of Genesis 1:8a in the 7th edition (2001) of this book. In 2005, I received independent letters from two pastors proposing an explanation.21 Before Adam’s fall, the earth was a paradise; in a sense, it was “heaven on earth.” Therefore, God called the firmament (earth’s crust) heaven. (Notice: God did not call heaven “the firmament.”) Each pastor provided different biblical reasons for his view, but both maintain that our difficulty in understanding Genesis 1:8a results largely from our inability to imagine the original paradise. If man had not fallen, no one would have difficulty with the fact that God called the earth, “heaven.”
The first part of this verse is deeply revealing:
Genesis 1:26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness:
Thought—these words “image” and “likeness” are very far removed from words such as “the same” or “just as.”
Thought—God describes Himself as “Us” and “Our”.
1. Does God live in this universe or outside of it?
Psalms gives much insight to this question.
Ps. 113: 5,6 Who is like the Lord or God, Who dwells on high, Who humbles Himself to behold the things that are in the heavens and in the earth.
Ps. 139: 7,8 Where can I go from Your spirit? Or where can I flee from Your presence?
At Jesus’ baptism we can read of the “Us” of creation—
Matt. 3: 16,17
16 And Jesus when he was baptized, went up straightway from the water: and lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending as a dove, and coming upon him;
17 and lo, a voice out of the heavens, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.
And in Acts 2:38 we learn of a gift that remains with us when we partake in baptism.
“...and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.”
What is the reason for this gift? Eph. 1: 13,14 In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise., who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory.
It would seem from scripture, God cannot be confined to outside of the Universe solely.
2. What role does perspective play in understanding Genesis?
There is only one perspective that really matters.
Col. 1:16,17. For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth,, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and FOR HIM. And He is BEFORE all things, and IN HIM all things consist.
We may *see* all kinds of things related to the creation, but our *seeing* doesn’t make it so. God alone is the only one with the correct perspective on creation and its workings. It was created FOR HIM, He is BEFORE all of creation, and all of creation consists IN HIM. Shall we limit God to a perspective generated by a human created science?
3. You have noted God’s signature in everything from the laws of physics to the microwave buzzes of the universe. How powerful is God?
These simple words in Ps. 33:6 say so much. “By the word of the Lord the heavens were made.” But if mere words that create a universe does not sound powerful, the passage in Acts 17: 24-29 makes things so clear regarding God’s power.
“God, who made the world and everything in it, since He is Lord of heaven and earth, does not dwell in temples made with hands, nor is He worshiped with mens hands, as though He needed anything, since He gives life, breath, and all things, and He has made from one blood every nation of men to dwell on all the face of the earth, and has determined their preappointed times and boundaries of their dwellings, so that they should seek the Lord, in the hope that they might grope for Him and find Him though He is not far from each one of us. For in Him we live and move and have our being.”
God has been intimately involved with all of creation throughout space and time and still is. How odd that man’s science would attempt to put time and space boundaries on I AM and His capabilities. His power is without limit. It matters not that we understand it.
4. What does Hebrews 11:1 mean?
Mark 10:15 Verily I say unto you, Whosoever shall not receive the kingdom of God as a little child, he shall in no wise enter therein.
“AS LITTLE CHILDREN” When putting our “image” and “likeness” next to God we see ourselves as we truly are. AS LITTLE CHILDREN. It is that humility and honesty that is required to understand Hebrews 11:1. And it is with that kind of humility and honesty that scripture can be accepted at face value.
Either God is or He is not.
If He is, then He is who He says He is.
If He is who He says He is, then His word is what He says it is.
II Timothy 3:16 Every scripture inspired of God is also profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for instruction which is in righteousness.
If His word is what He says it is, then there is no reason to doubt it.
Ecc. 12:13 Let us hear the conclusion of the matter: fear God and keep His commandments, for this is man’s all.
Solomon was given wisdom from God and this was his conclusion after striving for full mastery of all that he possessed and knew.
Awesome post daisy mae!
EnglishCon — You may find the following helpful as you continue your creation research:
http://creation.com/creation-compromises-questions-and-answers
Referring to Post 52, it does not make sense to me:
You posted several links that I had to read, digest and, in a couple of cases, pray on. I thank you for the links. (EnglishCon,Post 62)
What links?
“Your entire note makes Genesis verse 1 a lie.
If Genesis verse 1 is a lie, the account of creation is a lie.” (imardmd1, Post 33)
Could you expand on this please? I THINK I know what you mean, but want to be 100% sure. I am not quite sure how my post makes Genesis 1 a lie. (EnglishCon, Post 77)
Look, there is too much going on in my little world. Writing at great length is neither optional nor needed for a summary response. I am not going to be drawn into an epistemological doldrums and morass the size of the Sargasso Sea.
Even your first paragraph reveals a rejection of the basic underlying presupposition of foundation of the whole Bible:
My contention vis-a-vis a literal historically reported claim in the text is that:
The Uniplural Infinite, Ageless, Timeless, Omniscient, Omnipotent God created the heaven and the earth, ex nihilo, and all that is in it, in six diurnal evening-morning successive literal days (=yoms).
The clock started when the beginning began, and dimensions were concurrently declared. Pursuant to the introduction of time and dimensions, the conditions described by the Schrodinger Wave equations are met and enabled by the interruption of stasis, thus further permitting electro-magnetic spectrum, mass/gravity, and acoustics. But this is a distraction.
So then you say Genesis 1:3 and 'light' is the crux. I say, "No! The God is the crux, and in/of Him everything consists!" What light are you talking about? God is light, and in Him is no darkness at all!
Your talk is of '13.7 billion years." Roughly? Whose unproveable opinion, of someone else's surmise, of yet another prognostication, born of still more speculation, are you blindly (and blandly?) echoing? 13.7? What light was it that came into being when as yet no sun, moon planets, or stars existed? How many of those '13.7 billion' x 365.25 days (under theistic evolution) elapsed before the cytoplasts of grass (?) received light such that photosynthesis of carbon dioxide and water into carbohydrates could be performed? Come on!
The intellectual and spiritual light that is bestowed by the Words given to Moses was recorded for us to read and trust. This 'light' is of no use to one who is spiritually dead, who can only find relief in intellectual imaginations that somehow seem to be 'logical' and stepwise, but not satisfying.
Now, look, here's a parable:
For a dog standing near a cyclotron -- its theory, conceptualization, construction, operation, results, and basis for a linear accelerator -- is eons beyond the reach of a dog's mentation. At best, he can only lift his leg and pee on the apparatus to demonstrate his utter ignorance and disdain of the cyclotron's purpose, though he is intellectually aware of its existence. Yet, he might be deliberately made aware of its presence by, and its significance to, his mentor. The dog may even be highly trained to guard and defend its security with his very life, though never able to know WHY! The 'why' would require the insertion and awakening of a completely new faculty for perceiving and understanding the abstraction of the instrument's existence. That capability would have to be somehow inserted and brought to life miraculously for purposeful function by some external agency. Think about this.
In a similar fashion, you stand aware of the existence of a historically perpetuated 'fable' that we call 'the account of Creation,' by which everything you see and sense was purportedly brought into being. The account given says that literally, beyond the shadow of any possible doubt as to the literal sense, the entire furnishing of the universe was accomplished in 6 diurnal cycles. The length of the cardinal Day One was established by the first single evening-morning before our Sun (and perhaps even its existence) was established. The appearance of grass on Day Three preceded the making of the Sun and the Moon on Day Four. Thus the Day-Age (1 day = 1,000 years) Theory is summarily dismissed.
Your personal intellectual-only framework cannot permit this, therefore you have constructed your own fable to somehow, through rationalizations, imaginations, and reasonings, to assemble specially chosen 'facts' (while excluding others) and thus provide an excuse for preserving 'sanity' through denying the literal sense of the Bible text, and allegorizing the account to fit the shaky framework of time and chance and serendipity you have gratuitously supplied. My job here is to thoroughly disabuse you of these factors by casting down these imaginations and every 'high' thing that exalts itself against the knowledge of The God.
Similar to the dog exemplified above, and without an investment -- a birth -- of an internal faculty of seeing and acting on Spiritual Light, one is without a sense of need, purpose, direction, or motive to find an anchor for the soul. The God has provided the revelation, communication, transmission, preservation, translation, and interpretation, and with examples of illustrated successful applications of the thoughts in His Mind. His intention is toward that part of His Creation which is susceptible to redemption by His Generative Seed, The Word, from the damages of The Fall. He thus supplies the needed and immutable anchor through the veil that separates intellect and spirit.
To wit: A 'carnal' person only lives like a dog, with little planning, toward the next meal and avoidance of painful events. Greeks called this 'sarkikos' -- 'fleshly' -- pursuits.
An advancement over such a dog-like existence calls into play intellectual effort that anticipates the future and produces planning for better successes, as well as sometimes fruitful logical exercises. This level is intellectual in character, called by the Hellenic culture 'psuchikos' -- soulish. In the Bible, this kind of human is termed a 'natural man.' His activities may be exciting, creative, and absorbing, but really fail to provide a meaning that supersedes its termination by the stillness of death. It fails, though logical, to conquer Sin, which is humanly ineradicable.
But neither the 'carnal' nor the 'natural' human has any faculty by means of which one can understand The God's wisdom, will, or ways. He cannot know and appreciate The God's wonder. He may practice a religionistic effort, but can have no personal relational fellowship in/with His Son. He can pray all he wants, but only the god of this world will hear and answer. That is, until confession of sinfulness and the cry for rescue through The Christ's blood-letting is pled. It is no condition a human can achieve by oneself, no matter how much one desires or labors in ones own efforts or intellect. In fact, the only way that communication can take place is if and when The God, The Great Mentor and Creator, chooses to impart into a human that faculty of perceiving and understanding Him. Though His Word is couched in human language, until a new God-friendly spiritual being is born through the blood, no rapport with Him can take place.
But when this has taken place, a person beginning to function in this sphere is becoming spiritual -- to the early Hellenic Christian 'pneumatikos' -- and starting to learn spiritual Truths! This is a knowledge apart from intellectual gymnastics, and beyond "science," and may be diametrically opposed to what we call 'common sense.' How did the great Apostle and Prophet Paul express this in his second letter to the Corinthians?
"Now we (=Paul and Sosthenes, the writers) have received (=obtained), not the spirit of the world (=that of the world's culture), but the spirit which is of The God; that we might perceive things of The God that are freely given (=grace-imparted) to us. Which things also we speak, not in the words which humans' wisdom teaches, but which the Holy Spirit teaches; comparing spiritual things with spiritual. But natural (=psuchikos, soulish, intellectual) human does not receive (=willingly endorse and wilfully accept) the (profound) things of the Spirit of God (see v. 10); for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. But he that is spiritual (=pneumatikos, spiritually mature) forensically investigates all things,yet he himself is not interrogated by anybody. For who has known the Lord's mind, that he may instruct (=direct Him, teach Him how to think)? But we have the mind of Christ (=see Phil. 2:5). And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual (=pneumatikoi, spiritually mature), but as unto carnal ones(=sarkikoi, some were unregenerated 'believers'), as unto babes (=nepioi, diapered infants spiritually; some were very recently reborn of the Spirit or stunted in spiritual growth) in Christ." (passage from 1 Corinthians 2:12-3:1)
I am relating this, because your discourse is entirely soulish, "scientific," 'psukikos,' of the origins of the world's culture, and not as of spiritual, of trust in The God and His legally correct literal testimony in Genesis 1 (and by extension throughout the canon of Scripture) to the human race, as summarized by Moses. The purpose here is to correct you without regret or malice, and perhaps give you a saving advice. You may be saved, but your writing here does not show a persistent committed trust in the truthfulness of The God's gracious, undeserved, redeeming communication to mankind. And your seeming erudition may distract immature saved ones, or prevent gestating souls from breing born anew.
So, what is The God's serious recommendation to yourself and myself? Here it is, plainly and forthright:
"Trust (=place your persistent, invariant, 100% total committed reliance) in The LORD with all thine heart; and lean not on thine own understanding. In all thy ways acknowledge Him, and He shall direct thy paths. Be not wise in thine own eyes: fear The LORD, and depart from (=abandon) evil. It shall be health to thy navel and marrow to thy bones." (Proverbs 3:5-8)
My friend, there is a former Marine and lifelong truck driver, a man whom I have been privileged to disciple through many stages of spiritual maturity. Not long ago, he gave an address on Genesis 1:1 to the final session of a Christian men's breakfast Bible study which brought their accolade. Friend, I have the recording, and all your post on this theme can't compare to his presentation.
Your writing on this subject seems to me to parallel to the level of the dog above, were he lecturing to others on the purpose of a cyclotron, by barking. Though he barks well, he shows no understanding of the deeper import. It is without any love for the cyclotron-builder. In the Scripture, it is symbolized (pun) as would be a sounding brass or tinkling cymbal -- it is without meaning.
The story you have invented just doesn't hang together as a source of spiritual knowledge, and it has no directed purpose of dealing with sin, righteousness, and judgment.
I'm not writing to attack you, but your ideas simply are not exegetically supportable. This is the expansion you requested.
(Much longer than expected, but finished now.)
With sincere regard for your person and value ---
The spiritually mature person will accept Genesis 1:1 without further adaptation or allegorizing. Receive it as is, as a scientifically inexplainable (but true) miracle; as one would receive the parting of the Red Sea, or the reunificatiom of Jesus' soul and spirit with his body in the resurrection, ascension into The Heaven as The Eternal Redeemer, High Priest, and as the Coming King.
I have jumped all over the posts in this thread and forced myself to go back today and read or re-read them in order.
EnglishCon - God is a God of order and imardmd1 has defined things very succinctly for you. You’re interpretations of both science and the Bible leave you with a cognitive dissonance. Both long ages evolution and the 6,000 years described in the Bible can not both be true. Choose one - but very carefully - I warn you all science has neither followed the scientific method nor been proven true [i.e. both long age and evolution]. Historical science is not hard science and is definitely biased in favor of those providing the funding.
I’m sure you are aware of John 3:16 now please pray and re-read Romans 8. Then ask yourself - have I placed all my trust in Jesus work on the cross? Or have I been mixing truth with error due to scientific/cultural consensus?
Romans 8:19 - Gives me a certain hope that I will see my pets again in Heaven. Otherwise what event does all creation groan for?
Romans 8:31-39 makes it clear once I have placed my trust in Christ ~ His Love will prevail in ALL circumstances.
Jesus studied and affirmed all of the old testament in His days here on Earth. Is not everyman a liar yet god proven to be trustworthy and true in all things?
Please see my links page ~ it is simply a FReeper attestation to what science has shown and is most closely aligned with God’s Word. True science will never be in total opposition to the Bible.
Another interpretation of 2nd Peter 3:8 that I’ve seen on FR threads from the past says simply the creation week was a foreshadowing of man’s time on Earth. Approx 4000 years of old testament history + 2000 years of new testament history + 1000 years of Christ’s millennial reign = 7 days or 1 week in God’s time.
Sorry plant life is not lesser in DNA complexity. Generally, the more complex the DNA the sooner it goes extinct due to having very specific environmental and nutritional needs. Do an internet search for the DNA of the plant ‘Paris Japonis’ replacing the ‘marbled lungfish’ for the largest genomic footprint.
Thanks. So much to learn, so little time.
I’d like to think that ZC was just saying that most ‘christians’ are prone to misinterpreting [actually not even reading for themselves] the scriptures. Few there be that find it ~ salvation in Jesus Christ alone - see Romans 10:9-13.
Do not take the name of the Lord in vain is often interpreted as profanity mixed with references to God, but another more probable simple meaning is:
Do not pump yourself up with pride [vanity=pride] or be a chest-thumping christian. Are we not instructed to be meek and humble and boast only in what the Lord has done? Being a pride-filled christian is the worst sort ~ if one at all...
For God’s glory, my FRiend. :) Thank you.
Thank you ever so much, The_Reader_David, for the link to this splendid article! Downloaded for my leisurely perusal....
Thank you for defense of the faith.
A declaration made by Christ sits foremost in my mind, found in Mark 13:23 But take ye heed: behold, I have foretold you all things. (The next verse Christ quotes Isaiah 13:10.)
So before one jot or tittle of the so called New Testament ever got placed on animal skins or plant material all things had already been foretold. Genesis which means 'In the beginning', was also made part of the Gospel, by the writer John in John 1:1.
We have literal physical evidence left here on God's green earth of a long history. Evolution is a theory of how we as flesh beings developed over the long haul, while most of the creation theories reject the time element, and promote 'evolution' in quick time.
Now personally, I some thirty years ago after being churched with the doctrine of 'church' worship, meaning the doctrine developed was for the purposed devotion, love, and offerings to men of and in the church. Then one day out of the wild blue I got told that the 'church' was NOT right. The next dozen or so years I was totally turned off on 'religion' and asked for to never be self deceived or deceived by flesh man again.
Theories 'evolve' but the origins of life have never been given over to the process of evolution. How can I say this. Well simply Christ. The continual non-stop from Adam and Eve to the birth of Christ was controlled and protected. As is declared in Isaiah 7:14 Therefore the LORD Himself shall give you a sign; "Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel. (Immanuel means GOD with us.)
That declaration alone removes all possibility of eons ago a hot steamy pot of primordial soup wherein a single cell got all hot and bothered and reproduced itself and eventually got us to where we are today in these flesh bodies.
As nearest as I can tell the evolution theorists reject 'creation' because of the claims of the 'time' element. And the accusation is made that young earthers take the Bible literally. Wellll The Bible nowhere declares, states, or hints this earth's beginning is 'datable'. So that accusation of Bible literalists is empty and false given what the Bible literally declares, states and hints.
Further more the Bible describes two different flood, for two different purposes. Genesis 1:2 is where the first flood is described and the second one is described in Genesis 6. The dino world could not have still been in existence at the second flood, else Noah would have been required to have housed a pair of each of those creatures as he was instructed. Yet there is no doubt these creatures existed as their remains are found all over this earth.
IIPeter 3, the whole chapter explains, instructs the student in how God keeps time.
Pure science is not in disagreement with Genesis, or any other Scripture. But, those in 'control' of the creation of theories for the sole purpose of rejecting the Creator, created their own so called scientific methodology that survives outside the realm of reality.
A couple of 'theories' or claims that the left have developed for the purpose of their survival are 'man made' global warming. See apparently the generation warning of 'man made' global ice age must have retired to dementia farms and a new generation using the same scientific methodology has been birthed.
This latest craze intends to wrap all fours pillars of a functioning society around their latest prophecies. Using education they can raise up a willing populace to elect the like minded politicians and get their prophecies blessed as being Nostradamus's, and the economy will evolved into a stage of green energy...
Thankfully for all God's children He and He alone will judge the intent on His perfect scales.
Another interesting item, I remember learning, is that before the flood people were vegetarians. It is only AFTER the flood, that God commanded Noah and his family to begin eating meat. That would correspond to the need for complete proteins that exposure to the unfiltured-by-a-canopy-of-water sun depleted in the human body and which also shortened their lifespans.
“Yeah, I’m gonna put down that you created us all from “dust” and to “dust” we will return.”
Lol, exactly.
No doubt, to those primitive people, I would appear to be a powerful magician. Yet there is nothing I do as a scientist which is not explainable using natural laws.
You claimed “We have literal physical evidence left here on God’s green earth of a long history.”
Or do we simply have a ‘consensus paradigm’ problem from only the last 2 centuries where many have accepted long ages as fact when there are so many natural clocks [101] indicating magnitudes less time has elapsed since creation than the favored 2 [radio-isotopes, & starlight] of modern day geology and evolution
~ which BTW caused many otherwise ‘orthodox’ believers to begin subscribing to either some mysterious un-defined gap theory in Gen 1:2 and/or theistic long ages combination of evolution / creation.
Sorry no sale here, even if you could explain away these young-ages natural clocks:
101 Evidences for a Young Age of the Earth...And the Universe
http://creation.com/age-of-the-earth
Here’s another very simple question for you since you take most of the Bible at face value. When God referred Job to behemoth in Job 40 or 41 ‘with a tail like a cedar’ was God asking Job about an animal that Job had no knowledge of or was it because at some point after the fall mankind [and Job] shared the Earth with dinosaurs?
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