that they have the Word of God,
that we received it from them,
and that without them
we should have no knowledge of it at all."
~ Martin Luther
Posted on 12/30/2011 7:07:29 PM PST by rzman21
Some very good quotes from scripture have been given here so far and you’ve ignored God’s word and chastened the messenger.
WHY should one listen to YOU if you, yourself will not heed the Word of God for your own bigotted doctrine?
>>Bigoted. I used to be one of you, but the more I looked at the Bible and how the earliest Christians read the Bible, the more I realized that Evangelicalism and the rest of Protestantism was dead wrong.
There’s enough anti-Catholic bigotry on FR and has been for years to write a book about.
You give me quotes from scripture, take them out of context without understanding their deeper historical, cultural, and linguistic contexts. Then you (pl.) interpret the Bible in the light of Renascence humanistic philosophy and imagine that it means what you say it does, and when I have a difference of opinion you resort to ad hominem attacks telling me that I am going against the Word of God.
If you want to discuss a holier-than-thou attitude, then maybe some individuals should look in the mirror.
If you want to understand St. Paul, read up on 1st century Hellenistic Judaism to find the proper context.
The reactionary literalism of the post-J. Gresham Machen era in Evangelicalism has totally distorted the Bible’s meaning.
“The question should be: Was Jesus visible, and if the Church is his body isn’t it also visible?”
What did Jesus say?
24 He put another parable before them, saying, “The kingdom of heaven may be compared to a man who sowed good seed in his field, 25 but while his men were sleeping, his enemy came and sowed weeds among the wheat and went away. 26 So when the plants came up and bore grain, then the weeds appeared also. 27 And the servants of the master of the house came and said to him, ‘Master, did you not sow good seed in your field? How then does it have weeds?’ 28 He said to them, ‘An enemy has done this.’ So the servants said to him, ‘Then do you want us to go and gather them?’ 29 But he said, ‘No, lest in gathering the weeds you root up the wheat along with them. 30 Let both grow together until the harvest, and at harvest time I will tell the reapers, Gather the weeds first and bind them in bundles to be burned, but gather the wheat into my barn.’” - Matt 13
Or later:
1 “And to the angel of the church in Sardis write: ‘The words of him who has the seven spirits of God and the seven stars.
“‘I know your works. You have the reputation of being alive, but you are dead. 2 Wake up, and strengthen what remains and is about to die, for I have not found your works complete in the sight of my God. 3 Remember, then, what you received and heard. Keep it, and repent. If you will not wake up, I will come like a thief, and you will not know at what hour I will come against you. 4 Yet you have still a few names in Sardis, people who have not soiled their garments, and they will walk with me in white, for they are worthy. 5 The one who conquers will be clothed thus in white garments, and I will never blot his name out of the book of life. I will confess his name before my Father and before his angels. 6 He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches.’ - Rev 3
Had it not been for God guiding the Church fathers, you would be reading the Gospel of Thomas in the morning.
It was God guiding His church. It is the Holy Spirit who protects us. And it is the Holy Spirit who confirms within us what is or is not scripture.
Please remember that in the end, we stand before God as individuals:
5 One person esteems one day as better than another, while another esteems all days alike. Each one should be fully convinced in his own mind. 6 The one who observes the day, observes it in honor of the Lord. The one who eats, eats in honor of the Lord, since he gives thanks to God, while the one who abstains, abstains in honor of the Lord and gives thanks to God. 7 For none of us lives to himself, and none of us dies to himself. 8 For if we live, we live to the Lord, and if we die, we die to the Lord. So then, whether we live or whether we die, we are the Lord’s. 9 For to this end Christ died and lived again, that he might be Lord both of the dead and of the living.
10 Why do you pass judgment on your brother? Or you, why do you despise your brother? For we will all stand before the judgment seat of God; 11 for it is written,
“As I live, says the Lord, every knee shall bow to me,
and every tongue shall confess to God.”
12 So then each of us will give an account of himself to God. - Romans 14
Please notice that Paul didn’t tell them to ask the Vicar of Christ, the Infallible Peter...
The scriptures you cite have nothing to do with the discussion.
Do you believe that Jesus came in the flesh?
Evangelical ecclesiology strikes me as rather Gnostic.
http://www.onlinetruth.org/Articles%20Folder/evangelical__protestantism_and.htm
Hope you aren’t saying that Luther was not a man. LOL!
The next thing this article will try to convince me is that Jews didn’t arrive until after the Church.
Joh 1:1-5
(1) In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
(2) The same was in the beginning with God.
(3) All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
(4) In him was life; and the life was the light of men.
(5) And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.
The ekklesia is not an institution, yet The Church as used in the essay is conflated wholely with the ekklesia, blurring into obscurum the distinction between Salvation and faithful living among a body of fellow believers.
There are other subtle conflations, but It's too late and my sore tooth demands I address the common tonight.
It is not God's will that any should perish, so why would one opt for a 33% chance of heaven but a 66% of not. (Heaven, Hell and Purgatory)
The repentent thief on the cross KNEW, because God imself had spoken it, he would be with God (Jesus) the moment he died
God spoke it, the malfactor believed it ... and that's all we and ANYone need do.
I think the scripture I quoted is quite applicable.
Did Jesus teach that the visible church would have a mix of good and evil people, and he would sort it out at the end?
Is everyone in the visible church a part of the body of Christ?
14 “And to the angel of the church in Laodicea write: ‘The words of the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of God’s creation.
15 “‘I know your works: you are neither cold nor hot. Would that you were either cold or hot! 16 So, because you are lukewarm, and neither hot nor cold, I will spit you out of my mouth. 17 For you say, I am rich, I have prospered, and I need nothing, not realizing that you are wretched, pitiable, poor, blind, and naked. 18 I counsel you to buy from me gold refined by fire, so that you may be rich, and white garments so that you may clothe yourself and the shame of your nakedness may not be seen, and salve to anoint your eyes, so that you may see. 19 Those whom I love, I reprove and discipline, so be zealous and repent. 20 Behold, I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and eat with him, and he with me. 21 The one who conquers, I will grant him to sit with me on my throne, as I also conquered and sat down with my Father on his throne. 22 He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches.’”
“Hope you aren’t saying that Luther was not a man. LOL!”
Nope. He was just another sinner; but he was selected by God to shake up a moribund and decadent church.
He stated who the author was.
Since the “Assembly of the Saints” is filled with the “Elect” of God, and The “Elect” are chosen by God to have faith to believe in the Son, and since it is impossible to please God without faith, and “By faith Abraham...”, and “by faith Isaac..” etc, I would argue that the Church, or as Galatians notes, “the Israel of God”, was started by Christ at the beginning, and the first “member” was the first one “elected” that believed in the promise of Genesis 3:15.
The approach of this article is the same as most enemies of Christ.
Instead of being humble to God and relying on what He provides, abiding by His direct authority, and intaking the bread of life He gives, they seek to paint the access to Him as being through third party worldly intermediaries.
It assumes a believer must judge God in order for God to be justifiable in how He is approached.
Why not instead just remain faithful to Him through faith in Christ and let God handle how the believer is sanctified.
Belief is His good work in us, not our work to win His approbation.
It is not God’s will that any should perish, so why would one opt for a 33% chance of heaven but a 66% of not. (Heaven, Hell and Purgatory)
The repentent thief on the cross KNEW, because God imself had spoken it, he would be with God (Jesus) the moment he died
>>Because the thief was told so by Jesus.
But that verse does not apply to either one of us because you don’t know if your faith is real in the eyes of God.
Maybe you ought to read the other thread I posted by a fellow Bible-believing Christian who takes his co-religionists to task for presuming they have real saving faith.
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-religion/2826836/posts
All you or I have a presumption of self-righteousness.
BTW, you either go to heaven or to hell. Purgatory or whatever you want to call it is the front porch so to speak of heaven where the righteous who die with the misfortune of are purified before the Last Judgment.
As for indulgences, I don’t believe in them.
Read this.
http://orthodoxinfo.com/general/dragas.aspx
Actually, I read it all the way through. Sorry you don’t feel you have the time, but if it’s something of deep interest, one makes time.
But faith must be true and not false.
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-religion/2826836/posts
If God is able to provide His own Son as the Perfect Sacrifice for the sins of all mankind, I suspect He might be able to have predestined a method to communicate with believers who seek His fellowship, no matter what other humans do or don't perform.
He really doesn't have to rely on other people in the Church in order for His will to be fulfilled, although it does glorify the Son when all the members of His body work to glorify Him.
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