Posted on 11/23/2011 11:11:08 AM PST by marshmallow
A notoriously 'gay-friendly' parish in San Francisco has invited an openly homosexual Episcopalian cleric to lead an Advent Vespers service.
Most Holy Redeemer parish asked Bishop Otis Charles, a retired Episcopalian prelate, to lead the November 30 service. After serving as the Bishop of Utah from 1971 to 1993, he publicly announced that he is homosexual. Divorced from the mother of his 5 children, he solemnized a same-sex union in 2004.
More the trust that God preserved the scriptures for all through some very fallible people. Again, it’s God who preserves His word for us today. It’s God who uses men, even men who are lost as He did with Judas and the Romans who crucified Christ. Just as He will with evil men as in Ezek 38. It’s those instances and others like them that causes me not to look at the organization of men but to look deeper beyond those men for God’s word and purpose.
More the trust that God preserved the scriptures for all through some very fallible people.
Thank God for the fallible people of His Church that copied, transmitted, preserved the scriptures for us through many extremely violent and turbulent times. It's amazing; definitely a God thing.
.;)
No, I don’t think it is. Not all are called to the same purpose. Some are given different talents than others. Not all have been given the same desires or skills. Not all are called to leadership of other positions.
>>If, for example, "they are fervent in that belief" because it's what their teachers taught them and what their family and social group support, aren't they then relying on others, going with the crowd, etc?<<
Yes they are and it’s a dangerous place to be. One needs only look at the obvious examples of Waco, Jerry Jones etc. They weren’t putting their faith in Jesus as much as they were the leaders. I believe it’s the same with Catholics and many Protestants or of any faith for that matter. The put their full faith and trust in what the leadership is telling them.
BTW It's midnight here and I'm heading to bed. I enjoyed the discussion.
Yes, but your position is that *all* Christians are tasked with… not some according to their talents, but all.
Your argument seems to be heading straight for "but that is of no consequence in cases where they arrive at my beliefs by any method, even wrong and dangerous ones." ;)
Yes they are and it’s a dangerous place to be.
But they are in the same place you said was salvation. [cf: "I believe they are saved."]
I'm pushed to ask now, on closer examination, is this task really just very important for you and not for others? This is where I'm left given your statements.
If all your previously stated requirements for arriving at truth are now waived if the person happens to share your conclusions (and thus get your approval as far as their salvation theology), how am I to avoid the revelation that what you are describing here is reduced to just your search to find the true Christian Faith -- with those who agree with your results, by whatever means or no means, included by you as part of the true Church -- as determined by you?
I.e., what started out as important objective requirements for all Christians seems reduced to all-important subjective results, that they be the same as yours.
I'm off to sleep and have enjoyed the discussion as well.
God bless...
Logic should also tell you that sola scripture is a performative contradiction as you hinted in your post.
But then, every Christian theology outside the Church depends upon it; so, it becomes a virtue by necessity, the heck with logic.
BB, the whole structure is doomed to fracture and disunity, individualism becomes supreme, the precise opposite of Christ's commandments and wishes for us. Even Luther saw this result happening in his own brief time. It's only become worse and worse ever since.
We are at different ends, friend and I can only see yours as scattering and headed off into the abyss. Sadly. Whatever else we can or cannot know, we should know that heading in this direction, one-by-one, is not following Christ.
Thanks much for your thoughtful reply.
Because I was saved but there were just certain areas that people could shake my understanding of scripture. I believe, looking back, that the Holy Spirit was guiding me to a place of strength and understanding. Today I see the entirety of scripture as rock solid in all areas. Spiritually, scientifically and physically it cannot be proven in error.
>> What would you say is the underlying purpose of this study and effort? Would it be true to say that, for you, it is your own salvation, immortality?<<
Originally it was dinosaurs believe it or not. I never once doubted the salvation through Jesus but it seemed instinctively that I knew that there was something missing or in error about the teaching of the age of the earth. Because I had polio when I was 2 years old and the fabulous doctors I had I had a compelling desire to be an orthopedic specialist. Obviously that required study of science and medicine. There was a great amount of soul searching given the disparity between science and the scripture I had been taught. I didn’t become a doctor because of that disparity. That did however cause me to search for answers from which I have learned that there is no disparity. I was able to teach that to my son who is now a scientist for Lockheed Martin. I have also helped others understand that the study of science is the study of the incredible world God created.
A nuance perhaps but I would say “thank God that in spite of the fallible people He preserved the scriptures”. I give no credit to the people at all nor to any earthly organized “church”. I look at history and understand that the people and the church were doing things for ego, power, and other nefarious purposes rather than purely spiritual reasons.
It would be for all who truly put their walk with the Lord first in their lives to search for the meat of scripture to the extent that God has given them the desire and talent. I have a daughter whose faith is unshakable. A missionary no less, who serves the physical needs more than the deeper spiritual meat. I also have a son who was drawn to the deeper spiritual meat as I was. Each is called for a different purpose and task. Each equally saved and blessed.
>> and thus get your approval as far as their salvation theology<<
No one needs my approval. My approval is totally irrelevant. Whether you agree with me or not is irrelevant to my salvation. My salvation doesn’t depend on whether you agree with me or not or whether the RCC agrees with me or not. I put no trust in earthly organizations or people. My faith and trust are in Jesus and trust the Holy Spirit to lead and guide me in my search for truth.
>> what started out as important objective requirements for all Christians seems reduced to all-important subjective results, that they be the same as yours.<<
Not subjective at all. Based only on the one true Rock and that is the unchanging truth found in scripture as we are illuminated by the Spirit of God.
So sorry it's taken so long to respond to this as my husband has had a few setbacks with his leukemia and we've been spending a lot of time at MD Anderson.
Evidently you do not understand what I meant by saying my religion started about 63 AD as you cannot seem to wrap your brain around it. The formation of the Church the Body of Christ was given to the Apostle Paul to preach. That was his Christ-given commission. Ephesians tells us about the Church, which is His body. Eph. 1:22,23. I am a member of the Church the Body of Christ, which Paul wrote about in Romans through Philemon. Around 63 AD was when Ephesians was written. So I know that the Church I belong to was given by Christ to Paul to us. "According to THE GRACE OF GOD WHICH IS GIVEN UNTO ME, AS A WISE MASTERBUILDER, I HAVE LAID THE FOUNDATION, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon. For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ." 1 Cor. 3:10,11.
So yes, my Church began around 63 AD, give or take a few years.
What is your particular problem with this?
I agree with you on the church that Christ instituted for the Gentiles.
PRAYERS FOR HUBBY AND Y’ALL.
MAY GOD’S GRACE ABOUND TO YOU-INS IN ALL RESPECTS AND ABUNDANCE . . . PROVISION, HEALTH, WHOLENESS, PEACE, TRUST, CONFIDENCE IN HIM, JOY, HOPE, LOVE, FAITH, SAFETY, PROTECTION, GUIDANCE, INTIMACY WITH HIM AND ALL THOSE YOU LOVE THIS CHRISTmas AND IN THE NEW YEAR.
It would be for all who truly put their walk… to the extent that God has given them the desire and talent.
Then, it seems to me, you have walked back the "all Christians" statement as I concluded.
Not subjective at all. Based only on the one true Rock and that is the unchanging truth found in scripture as we are illuminated by the Spirit of God.
As determined by you; that is subjective.
We gone all the way through a supposedly objective search for truth which you require for yourself and all Christians to this being optional. Gone from examining all the evidence, studying the languages and interpretations, using reason to settle differences, etc. to end at:
"My faith and trust are in Jesus and trust the Holy Spirit to lead and guide me in my search for truth."
You.
Not even 'two or more.' Just you.
I wish you well as an individual; but, as a scriptural interpretation of Christ's commandments, wishes and prayer for us and His Church; and, as a model following the Apostles and the early Church in Acts and afterward, your way fails and falls, sadly and profoundly, upon Self.
My sincere thanks for your courteous discussion and replies.
My hopes and prayers for your husband and you and your family in your difficult times.
After doing some research on the verses quoted, I dismiss out of hand the contentions that there is anything wrong or contradictory in them.
First, the translations offered are very different from mine and are redacted.
For instance, Ecclesiaticus 22: 3 It is a disgrace to have fathered a badly brought-up son, but the birth of any daughter is a loss;
The very next verse speaks of the sensible daughter finding a husband. When a daughter married she most often left the household of her father to live with her husband, so that daughter is a loss to the household.
Next, we read how if the daughter is brazen or bold shames the parents and will be disowned. Another loss.
Ecclesiasticus 25:19 I found three different versions, but when one reads the preceding and following verses, one sees that the writer is advising the man in choosing his wife and explaining what happens when one chooses a wife who is wicked.
In the passage from Wisdom, having been plucked out of the book and posted without context, the words do appear rather harsh. In light of what the whole chapter is saying however, one sees that the writer is again issuing warnings to parents.
The other passage from Wisdom, it does not contradict Proverbs. The two things, fear of the Lord and the desire for instruction are not at odds with each other. One who fears the Lord, desires to know Him and please Him.
Again, in the quote from Wisdom 6, there are differing translations, some say salvation, some welfare. But, again, one is reading into it what isn’t there if one does not see what the writer intended.
You know, CB that there are those who discount the whole Bible and do not believe in God because of His commanding the Israelites to kill all the Canaanites, including woman and children til none were left.
Do you not understand the indwelling of the Holy Spirit? Never mind.
>> Then, it seems to me, you have walked back the "all Christians" statement as I concluded.<<
No, once again you are reading into it your own prejudice it seems to me. ALL Christians must search the scriptures. It’s just that some are going to be called to search for deeper truths and meat than others. It’s not that some should and others shouldn’t. Just a degree to which they do.
>> As determined by you; that is subjective.<<
LOL I know Catholics find solace in putting their trust in some supposed learned carnal individual and find it difficult to relate to those of us who realize that salvation is an individual thing. I pray one day you put aside the propaganda of the RCC and trust in Christ alone.
>> Not even 'two or more.' Just you.<<
It is never “just me”. I am never alone. I pray one day you will realize.
Yours, mine, Jim Jones' or David Koresh's?
We already went through this: two people both claiming the same Holy Spirit leading to different conclusions… You first said discussing with others was important with resolution through reasoned debate, then fell back on you, yours, I, me, mine.
Subjective.
No, once again you are reading into it your own prejudice it seems to me.
I was specific in my first post:
It seems to me that "…you see it as your task to determine what is scripture or revelation, what is the correct translation and meaning of same and from this what are the correct beliefs (i.e. doctrine, dogma) for your religion. I think it would be accurate to say the result being, according to you, the correct Christian Faith or religion.""Is every Christian tasked to do the same?"
You answered yes to this question and continued the position during further discussion, up until the end.
It is never “just me”. I am never alone.
I assume you're referring again to you, Jesus and the Holy Spirit. This is *not* the meaning of whenever two or more of you; and, is most definitely not the Church. A church does not consist of you. The position that your way (by your own light determining your own scripture, meaning and doctrine) is the way of Christ and His Church would be inconceivable to the Apostles and early Christians in scripture and afterward.
I think we are repeating our positions now, and I don't see them changing. The discussion will have to stand on its own merits.
Thanks again for your courtesy in reply.
You know, I don't see that belonging to a church denomination has any real advantage in regard to someone's salvation than it being just him and God.
If a person doesn't want to be saved, being in the church is not going to get him there.
I can't count the number of times that FRoman Catholics have stated that someone who doesn't follow the churches teachings has ex-communicated themselves.
A person motivated enough to be active in a group to contribute to his or her salvation, is motivated enough to do it without the group.
And a person who won't do it on their own, won't do it as part of a group either.
All the denomination or being part of the group does is add another layer between the person and God.
You can be as committed to God as the group and as committed to the group as God.
Either way, it all gets back to the individual commitment. Even the RCC won't force anyone to be saved against their will.
Comparing beliefs and theology to Scripture = objective. There is simply not that much serious differences in beliefs.
Sure people like Koresh and Jones can CLAIM the Holy Spirit, but a cursory look at their doctrines and teaching show deviation from that. They went wrong because they deviated from Scripture. There is that part about *Thou shalt not kill* and *Thou shalt not commit adultery* which they ignored.
It's obvious to anyone, that despite their claims of being led by the Spirit, that they weren't and their followers would have recognized it if they had investigated Scripture instead of putting their faith in their leaders.
I disagree that sola scriptura fits being called a "performative contradiction". Of course, I still don't know what you even mean by the term. Sola Scriptura - by Scripture alone, to me and to most adherants is that Scripture, by its Divine nature, is the final authority for the truths of the Christian faith. This means that Scripture is sufficient of itself to be this authority. This isn't true because I say it is and stating Scripture is the sole authority for doctrines of the faith, is not then making my statement authoritative about it but simply defining what the term means. If you want to talk about "performative contradictions", look at the Roman Catholic Church infallibly declaring itself as infallible.;o)
As the Westminster Confession of the Faith defines it, "All things in Scripture are not alike plain in themselves, nor alike clear unto all; yet those things which are necessary to be known, believed, and observed, for salvation, are so clearly propounded and opened in some place of Scripture or other, that not only the learned, but the unlearned, in a due use of the ordinary means, may attain unto a sufficient understanding of them." So, even though Scripture includes many deep theological meanings as well as a handbook for living pleasing to God and God gifts to the church men and women who can aid in the understanding, Scripture is the only infallible authority we have. I realize that as a Catholic you have been taught that Scripture is not the only infallible authority but I do not believe that fallible men can usurp Scripture through nebulous "traditions" or "gifts of infalliblity". Scripture is perspicuous to the rational reader who has been indwelled by the Holy Spirit who is promised will lead us into all truth. Certainly, we have the wonderful resources of the ancient believers' writings and their insights and knowledge are edifying and enlightening, but none was writing God-breathed words so we must also measure what they say to Scripture. I'm sure you have already seen the numerous ECFs' views on the importance of whatever they say being tested by Scripture.
But then, every Christian theology outside the Church depends upon it; so, it becomes a virtue by necessity, the heck with logic.
Every Christian should depend upon the reliability and infallibility of Scripture since it alone is the only divinely inspired resource we have universally been given. It is logical to trust the only infallible authority given to us by God. What Catholics resist is the idea that their Magesterium is bound by Holy Scripture. Those that resist the authority of Scripture over their leaders do so because they have more trust in those men than they do God's holy word. That defies logic IMHO.
BB, the whole structure is doomed to fracture and disunity, individualism becomes supreme, the precise opposite of Christ's commandments and wishes for us. Even Luther saw this result happening in his own brief time. It's only become worse and worse ever since.
Are you seriously trying to convince me that the Roman Catholic Church is unified? Other than the tenets voiced in the Nicene Creed, for example, there is little unity on all the other dogmas not to mention disagreements on what really is tradition, who the Church "fathers" were, who could humanly be infallible and when and which parts of their decrees are binding or not, as well as the fact there are many "traditions" that demonstrably contradict Holy Scripture. This poses a conundrum for you because the "Church" acknowledges the Divinely inspired Scriptures as infallible but, when dogmas are developed that go against Holy Scripture, it is what the Magesterium deems de fide overrules Scripture and that brings up the issue of who then is permitted to "interpret" the Bible.
Luther did not rue the Reformation at all. If you read any of his writings, he knew that in the end days all things were going to become worse:
The Gospel was going to be fought against by the Devil with all his might. The true church was a tiny flock in a battle against the world, the flesh, and the Devil. He hoped the people would improve with the preaching of the Gospel, he often admitted he knew things were going to get worse because of the Gospel.
Luther's complaints about coldness toward the Gospel appear alongside and indeed presuppose his confident declarations that, in fact, the Gospel is being abundantly preached and proclaimed, not only in the churches by faithful pastors, not only in the schools—of which Luther boasts even as he pleads for more generous support—but also in homes, among parents and children, as he says in his last sermon: "You hear at home in your house, father and mother and children sing and speak of it, the preacher speaks of it in the parish church." The Gospel is thus communicated from one generation to the next—and back again. It is to the children, with whom Luther habitually associates knowledge of the Christian Creed, that he refers adults who have questions about Christian faith, and upon the youth, "the seedlings with which the Church of God, like a beautiful garden, is cultivated and propagated," that the reformer continues to place undiminished hopes. The Reformation, as Luther understands it at the end of his life, is neither an accomplished event nor a step along the progressive way to the full purification of the Church, but it is a continual struggle, carried out through the preaching of the Law and the Gospel, to be renewed from generation to generation until the Last Day.(http://beggarsallreformation.blogspot.com/2011/05/did-luther-regret-reformation.html)
We are at different ends, friend and I can only see yours as scattering and headed off into the abyss. Sadly. Whatever else we can or cannot know, we should know that heading in this direction, one-by-one, is not following Christ.
Don't fear that for me. The "abyss" is not my destination because I have anchored my soul to the Lord Jesus Christ. As long as I continue to trust in him, rest in him, he continues to lead me. I have not taken my eyes off of him and no one who trust in him will be put to shame. We have the very great and precious promises of Almighty God. Perhaps you have been given a false concept of the unity Christ prayed for his disciples. I believe that unity IS in existance even today, but it is a spiritual unity rather than an institutional one. Those who are IN CHRIST are his and he knows his sheep.
Prayers lifted for your husband for healing and a miraculous restoration to full health and vigor. Also, for you and the rest of your family, that you grow closer to the Lord and to each other as you walk together through this valley.
Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.