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To: D-fendr
Logic should also tell you that sola scripture is a performative contradiction as you hinted in your post.

I disagree that sola scriptura fits being called a "performative contradiction". Of course, I still don't know what you even mean by the term. Sola Scriptura - by Scripture alone, to me and to most adherants is that Scripture, by its Divine nature, is the final authority for the truths of the Christian faith. This means that Scripture is sufficient of itself to be this authority. This isn't true because I say it is and stating Scripture is the sole authority for doctrines of the faith, is not then making my statement authoritative about it but simply defining what the term means. If you want to talk about "performative contradictions", look at the Roman Catholic Church infallibly declaring itself as infallible.;o)

As the Westminster Confession of the Faith defines it, "All things in Scripture are not alike plain in themselves, nor alike clear unto all; yet those things which are necessary to be known, believed, and observed, for salvation, are so clearly propounded and opened in some place of Scripture or other, that not only the learned, but the unlearned, in a due use of the ordinary means, may attain unto a sufficient understanding of them." So, even though Scripture includes many deep theological meanings as well as a handbook for living pleasing to God and God gifts to the church men and women who can aid in the understanding, Scripture is the only infallible authority we have. I realize that as a Catholic you have been taught that Scripture is not the only infallible authority but I do not believe that fallible men can usurp Scripture through nebulous "traditions" or "gifts of infalliblity". Scripture is perspicuous to the rational reader who has been indwelled by the Holy Spirit who is promised will lead us into all truth. Certainly, we have the wonderful resources of the ancient believers' writings and their insights and knowledge are edifying and enlightening, but none was writing God-breathed words so we must also measure what they say to Scripture. I'm sure you have already seen the numerous ECFs' views on the importance of whatever they say being tested by Scripture.

But then, every Christian theology outside the Church depends upon it; so, it becomes a virtue by necessity, the heck with logic.

Every Christian should depend upon the reliability and infallibility of Scripture since it alone is the only divinely inspired resource we have universally been given. It is logical to trust the only infallible authority given to us by God. What Catholics resist is the idea that their Magesterium is bound by Holy Scripture. Those that resist the authority of Scripture over their leaders do so because they have more trust in those men than they do God's holy word. That defies logic IMHO.

BB, the whole structure is doomed to fracture and disunity, individualism becomes supreme, the precise opposite of Christ's commandments and wishes for us. Even Luther saw this result happening in his own brief time. It's only become worse and worse ever since.

Are you seriously trying to convince me that the Roman Catholic Church is unified? Other than the tenets voiced in the Nicene Creed, for example, there is little unity on all the other dogmas not to mention disagreements on what really is tradition, who the Church "fathers" were, who could humanly be infallible and when and which parts of their decrees are binding or not, as well as the fact there are many "traditions" that demonstrably contradict Holy Scripture. This poses a conundrum for you because the "Church" acknowledges the Divinely inspired Scriptures as infallible but, when dogmas are developed that go against Holy Scripture, it is what the Magesterium deems de fide overrules Scripture and that brings up the issue of who then is permitted to "interpret" the Bible.

Luther did not rue the Reformation at all. If you read any of his writings, he knew that in the end days all things were going to become worse:

The Gospel was going to be fought against by the Devil with all his might. The true church was a tiny flock in a battle against the world, the flesh, and the Devil. He hoped the people would improve with the preaching of the Gospel, he often admitted he knew things were going to get worse because of the Gospel.

Luther's complaints about coldness toward the Gospel appear alongside and indeed presuppose his confident declarations that, in fact, the Gospel is being abundantly preached and proclaimed, not only in the churches by faithful pastors, not only in the schools—of which Luther boasts even as he pleads for more generous support—but also in homes, among parents and children, as he says in his last sermon: "You hear at home in your house, father and mother and children sing and speak of it, the preacher speaks of it in the parish church." The Gospel is thus communicated from one generation to the next—and back again. It is to the children, with whom Luther habitually associates knowledge of the Christian Creed, that he refers adults who have questions about Christian faith, and upon the youth, "the seedlings with which the Church of God, like a beautiful garden, is cultivated and propagated," that the reformer continues to place undiminished hopes. The Reformation, as Luther understands it at the end of his life, is neither an accomplished event nor a step along the progressive way to the full purification of the Church, but it is a continual struggle, carried out through the preaching of the Law and the Gospel, to be renewed from generation to generation until the Last Day.(http://beggarsallreformation.blogspot.com/2011/05/did-luther-regret-reformation.html)

We are at different ends, friend and I can only see yours as scattering and headed off into the abyss. Sadly. Whatever else we can or cannot know, we should know that heading in this direction, one-by-one, is not following Christ.

Don't fear that for me. The "abyss" is not my destination because I have anchored my soul to the Lord Jesus Christ. As long as I continue to trust in him, rest in him, he continues to lead me. I have not taken my eyes off of him and no one who trust in him will be put to shame. We have the very great and precious promises of Almighty God. Perhaps you have been given a false concept of the unity Christ prayed for his disciples. I believe that unity IS in existance even today, but it is a spiritual unity rather than an institutional one. Those who are IN CHRIST are his and he knows his sheep.

4,079 posted on 12/15/2011 8:51:35 PM PST by boatbums (Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us. Titus 3:5)
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To: boatbums
thanks for your reply.

I disagree that sola scriptura fits being called a "performative contradiction". Of course, I still don't know what you even mean by the term.

You don't even know what the term means but you know sola scriptura doesn't fit it; and, later on, that something else does.

Ok...

The syntax: "Logic should also tell you..." would strongly indicate a performative contradiction is a term used in logic, reason, critical thinking…

Contradiction doesn't need to be explained; performative would indicate something to do with the performance of.

Scripture is the final authority for the truths of the Christian faith and is sufficient of itself to be this authority.
Since the "final authority" does not say it is the final authority nor sufficient of itself to be so, if you believe the statement to be true, it is false.

If you do it; it's undoes itself.

Performative. Contradiction.

Thanks for your courteous and thoughtful reply.

4,082 posted on 12/15/2011 10:18:52 PM PST by D-fendr (Deus non alligatur sacramentis sed nos alligamur.)
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To: boatbums

What you said.

Amen and Amen!!!!!


4,084 posted on 12/16/2011 6:07:52 AM PST by metmom (For freedom Christ has set us free; stand firm therefore & do not submit again to a yoke of slavery)
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