Posted on 07/04/2011 10:00:42 PM PDT by TheDingoAteMyBaby
The debate among evangelical Christians over Darwin's theory of evolution has returned to front stage this summer with the publication of two separate cover stories on the issue by leading Christian magazines.
In its June cover story, Christianity Today reported on how Christian proponents of Darwin are challenging historic beliefs about Adam and Eve.
Now Christian news magazine World has announced that it will name two books critiquing "theistic evolution" as its "Books of the Year" in its upcoming July 2 issue. World called the evolution debate in churches and religious colleges "the biggest current battle both among Christians and between Christian and anti-Christian thought."
One of the two books honored by World is God and Evolution: Protestants, Catholics, and Jews Explore Darwin's Challenge to Faith (Discovery Institute Press, 2010).
The book's editor, Dr. Jay Richards, commented, "We wanted to clear away the fog and fuzzy-thinking on this issue. Our book makes clear that to the degree theistic evolution is theistic, it will not be fully Darwinian. And to the degree that it is Darwinian, it will fail fully to preserve traditional theism."
God and Evolution features essays by Protestant, Catholic and Jewish scholars critical of the growing effort by advocates of theistic evolution such as Francis Collins to persuade leaders of the faith community to change their theology without hearing from scientists who are skeptical of the claims of unguided Darwinian evolution.
"Over the past couple of years, Collins has convened large closed-door meetings of evangelical Christian leaders to convince them to embrace theistic evolution," said Dr. John West, who wrote the first two chapters of God and Evolution.
"These gatherings intentionally excluded any scientists who were critical of Darwin's theory of unguided evolution. Collins has said that he wants to foster dialogue on this issue, but excluding scholars who dissent from Darwin from the conversation is a recipe for monologue, not dialogue."
For more information visit www.faithandevolution.org
SOURCE Discovery Institute
Are the poor attempts at humor a substitution for your lack of ability to discuss scripture???
I don't know how poor they are: I've had a number of PMs laughing at your post and with my response.
How about you answer the question?
Well, let’s look at a direct translation.
And the earth was without form, and void;
Vav..Erets......hayah..tohu..............bohu;
and darkness was upon the face of the deep.
....choshek...........................tehown
The word for "was" - hayah - is the same word used in Genesis 19:26 where Lot's wife was (hayah) turned into a pillar of salt.
Hayah is a verb; to be, become, come to pass, exist, happen, fall out
The earth became (or had become)without form and void.
Not my words. The words from the original language of scripture inspired by God.
The entire creation didn't appear instantaneously...God says it took six days...According to God, he didn't create Heaven til the 2nd day...
At the moment of creation, in the beginning, there were both the heavens and the earth. A subsequent description of the conditions of part of that creation, the earth, that doesn't include anything about the heavens previously described as having been created "in the beginning," can't be used to posit the lack of the heavens (everything other than the earth): "there was no Heaven [sic] at the time."
So God created the earth and heaven at the same time, it would appear...But yet, God says He created the Heaven on the 2nd day of creation; after He created light...
Appears to be an enigma here...
One can look at it and say why worry about the small details, the general message is that in the beginning God created everything...Or, one can look at every word of God and be convinced that each and every word was placed there meticulously by God to give us information, as I do...
This little exercise in study bolsters my understanding of the 'Gap Theory'...
In the beginning, God created the heaven and earth...Something caused God to destroy it all, including heaven...Obviously with water...
2Pe 3:6 Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished:
2Pe 3:7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.
In the beginning, God created the heaven and the earth...But by Gen. 1:2, there was no heaven...Peter says the heaven and earth at one time perished...
The way I see it, the only way this could happen is if there was a gap between Gen. 1:1 and Gen. 1:2...
And that would certainly allow for the existence of dinosaurs and other things...
I once found a strata of fossils embedded into the side of a hill, about a hundred feet down from the surface...The strata of fossils was about 3 feet thick...All piled on top of each other...The side of the hill had been washed out by the Yellowstone river in Montana...
I dug one of the thousands of fossils out and some time later, I submitted it to the University of Michigan to see if they could tell me anything about it...
They kept the fossil for a while and ultimately told me it was from a salt water sea critter that lived about 50 (or maybe it was 5, been a while now) million years ago...
I'm not so sure about the millions of years of history, but an old earth, destroyed, with a relatively new creation would give this fossil a place to fit in...
I’ll trust the original translators, thanks.
If you haven’t already, you should examine the research at www.icr.org, www.cmi.org, and www.answersingenesis.org
Which translators? The ones who translated from Hebrew to Latin or the Latin to English? Then there are many other corroborating texts and scriptural references that need to be taken into account. I started studying that back when I was around 17 and I’m now near 63. I started the study with an honest on my knees plea to God to help me understand.
Today it’s much easier because you can access both Greek and Hebrew lexicons on line. Satan is pretty clever at keeping Christians naïve. He’s been at it a long time. The world “that then was” before Genesis 1:1 is the world he deceived and convinced He was God that caused his oust from heaven.
My last post should read “Genesis 1:2 not Genesis 1:1
> Which translators?
Tyndale, The KJ translators, Diodati, Almeida, Luther, Cyril, Webster, none of them conveys the sense of this passage that you do.
Consider also expositors like Dr. Henry Morris (Institute of Creation Research).
It must be nice to be a greater scholar than any of them.
"Hayah is a verb; to be, become, come to pass, exist, happen, fall out"
"The earth became (or had become)without form and void."
"Not my words. The words from the original language of scripture inspired by God."
Well, it looks like the usage as "to be" and "exist" allow for the earth to have been created without form and void. I don't see that it is required that 'became' be used here.
Well, then I guess you will just have to keep believing that the first creation of God was a mess, and that dinosaurs were on the ark. You will have to believe that Mastodons were so quickly frozen in an ice age but not indication of any such occurrence in scripture. I could go on and on. It’s no wonder that so many think Christians don’t have a clue.
The same word is used about Lot’s wife. She “became” or was turned into a pillar of salt. There are many other portions of scripture that become much more clear when the word became is used in Genesis 1:2. But as I said in my last post, if you want to believe that dinosaurs and mastodons were on the ark so be it.
When expressed, yes.
While a lot of mutations aren't ever expressed, that is because DNA and the triplet-codon amino acid coding-system are fault tolerant. Then, the diploid/polyploid chromosome structure comes in over that and is also fault tolerant. Then, the sexual reproductive system comes over both of those and is fault tolerant as well.
As you can see, the entire structure of vast numbers of organisms has several fault tolerant systems in place. This points toward a created biology that was created at a high level of complexity that is designed to resist decline and decay.
It does not point toward a biology that evolved out of 'whatever' for no reason whatsoever.
Be careful that you don't fall into logical fallacy with these kinds of arguments. This is basically known as the fallacy of affirming the consequent.
Affirming the consequent happens when you accept that, since evolution predicts 'change' and you observe 'change', that you think that the theory is therefore supported. It is not because you have not excluded every other possibility for the observed 'change'. 'Change' can be equally used to support a created biology and is not unique support for evolution.
Evolution is defined as 'change' for the same reason that AGW is now defined as climate 'change'. Science has been overwhelmed by logical fallacy in both cases.
OK, I'm not arguing that. Are you saying that 'hayah' is used exclusively in Scripture to mean "became"?
"But as I said in my last post, if you want to believe that dinosaurs and mastodons were on the ark so be it."
Is there a problem?
Exclusively no, but it’s makes more sense and understanding when in context with other parts of scripture and scientific evidence.
>>Is there a problem?<<
Yep, when was an ice age since the flood? At what point in time since the flood did the climate cool so fast that Mastodons were frozen with green vegetation in their mouth having not even had time to swallow. When did the dinosaurs go extinct since the flood?
OK, not exclusively. Now clearly other parts of Scripture do not rule this usage. As for the 'scientific evidence'? Forget about it. There is none.
"Yep, when was an ice age since the flood? At what point in time since the flood did the climate cool so fast that Mastodons were frozen with green vegetation in their mouth having not even had time to swallow. When did the dinosaurs go extinct since the flood?"
Well, if Jobab in Gen 10 is Job; the ice age after the flood is well documented. Frozen mastadons don't require that the entire climate cool that fast and you have a bigger problem if you place them pre-flood. Unless you don't believe in a world-wide flood, that is.
As for dinosaurs going extinct in modern times, there are examples all over the world. Beowulf and the story of St George and the dragon are a couple of examples of human/dinosaur interactions. There is plenty of other evidence if you care to look.
If you want to believe what science says as your authority, then it doesn't matter anyway.
Yes, I agree. A frequent failing in all disciplines where humans are involved, unfortunately.
Dear lord I hope that was said in jest. If not, referencing fictitious tales as your source in a discussion of scripture is no less then pathetic.
If that is in fact your point of reference our discussion is surely over.
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