Posted on 05/05/2011 9:38:04 AM PDT by Alex Murphy
James 2:17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone. -- it's never faith ALONE. Note that
so, take it up with Jesus who says the above.
you do understand the difference right, the salvtion comes from Christ? Where did Christ add through the Church?
A Catholic/Orthodox/Oriental would recognise this as saying Salvation (though coming FROM Christ ie through GRACE alone), also requires baptism, repentance, the Eucharist as WELL as faith.
Note that
so, take it up with Jesus who says the above.
you do understand the difference right, the salvtion comes from Christ? Where did Christ add through the Church?
A Catholic/Orthodox/Oriental would recognise this as saying Salvation (though coming FROM Christ ie through GRACE alone), also requires baptism, repentance, the Eucharist as WELL as faith.
Note that
so, take it up with Jesus who says the above clearly indicating that it is not faith ALONE but GRACE alone.
| 13But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved. |
He who believes and is baptized will be saved. (Mk 16:16)
[U]nless you repent you will all likewise perish. (Lk 13:3
[H]e who eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day. (Jn 6:54)
So, do listen to the words of Jesus who said it is faith+ repentance+baptism+the Eucharist+endurance, not any of these in isolation. Of course, these don't "save us" per se, since it is Christ's sacrifice on the Cross that grants us our salvation that we can accept or reject.
Is there such a thing as a ‘deathbed confession of faith’ and, if so, is that enough to ‘save’ and/or ‘justify’ us?
NO. Remember -- James says "even the demons believe - and shudder" -- it is not faith ALONE that saves
Jesus himself says, faith, baptism, repentance, etc (see below) -- and if someone has led a horrible life (or even a normal, not good, not bad life) and on his/her death-bed just says "Lord, Lord, I believe", but does not repent, he will not be saved, that is what Jesus Himself told us. Take the good thief -- he REPENTED, he BELIEVED, he was baptised by the Blood of the lamb and he endured in this to his death and yes, he was saved
To reiterate -- from the moment of your acceptance, you must truly accept the Lord's freely given grace of salvation. The death-bed acceptance is the most extreme case, you have to admit, but even here, unless the person repents and believes, he is not baptised with the blood of the Lamb, he does not share in the body of Christ and no, he is not saved.
In a normal case, whether you are a Baptist or not, from the moment of your acceptance of Christ's saving grace, you must endure, you must repent, you must believe, you must share in the body of the Lamb and you must remember Matt 25:31-46
Isn't Jesus pretty clear? you MUST have faith to be saved by the freely given grace of salvation, however, it is not faith ALONE
Do you believe Jesus's words or not?
Justification detaches man from sin which contradicts the love of God, and purifies his heart of sin. Justification follows upon God's merciful initiative of offering forgiveness. It reconciles man with God. It frees from the enslavement to sin, and it heals.
Justification is at the same time the acceptance of God's righteousness through faith in Jesus Christ
Justification has been merited for us by the Passion of Christ who offered himself on the cross as a living victim, holy and pleasing to God, and whose blood has become the instrument of atonement for the sins of all men
On the death-bed the person who repents, believes has accepted God's freely given grace of justification -- note, we do not justify ourselves, nor do we earn this
What you absolutely flunked was to whom credit & glory belong for these acts of faith!
What you say about "faith alone" only makes sense if you first define "faith" as having only "indoor" qualities -- and automatically excluding faith as having "outdoor" dimensions.
What do I mean? Allow me to explain using the verses you gave:
Mark 16:16:
Take the verse you cited on believing & is baptized (Mk 16:16) ... the power of belief is centered in the "outdoor" object of trust...You can have all the "indoor" "faith" you want that a certain bridge will get you across the chasm, but if that bridge is unreliable, then your anti "faith" alone formula falls apart...because somebody "taking the next step" beyond faith may wind up at the bottom of a canyon if he has misplaced faith!
IOW, it's the external soundness of a reliable bridge that is key -- not simply the PERSON walking across the bridge to somehow "add" to faith.
Furthermore, in Scripture, baptism is presented as something men have done to them -- IOW, it's a passive reception. (What babies baptized in the RC church say, "I want to be baptized"??...and even in the Bible, it conveys baptism as something the Church is active about -- but the receivers are passive recipients of what is transacted there).
Scripture clearly shows repeatedly that baptism and what goes on there is more an act of God than it is a act of man (see Acts 2:38; Titus 3:5, for example)...therefore, we're NOT to try to make baptism part of a checklist "what men have to do to be saved"...cause when you read the rest of Mark 16:16, it DOES NOT say "he who does not believe and IS NOT BAPTIZED is to be condemned." There is no "IS NOT BAPTIZED" in Mark 16:16.
Luke 13:3 (repentance)
Just as GOD -- and not MAN -- gets the glory in baptism, so the Bible likewise portrays that about repentance:
When they heard this, they had no further objections and praised God, saying, "So then, God has granted even the Gentiles repentance unto life." (Acts 11:18)
Do you comprehend the upshot of this verse? If God doesn't "grant" repentance, people groups aren't going to repent.
So, Who gets credit for all of this? God the Holy Spirit (1 Cor. 12:3); God the Son (Acts 5:31); God the Father (Acts 11:18). I would hope none of us would ever fall to the temptation to steal even a drop of His glory. It's ALL God...those prompters to repent...to act...the energy to act...It's ALL Him!
John 6:54
Imagine you are invited to a Great free Banquet. The best meal possible is served. You are indeed served by the host's assistants. But you have to walk to the location and you have to walk up to where the meal is served.
When you discuss the meal later, you emphasize to others not what the host did to have to extend the invitation, prepare the meal, serve the meal, and how much it cost him -- but instead you emphasize the walking you had to do to eat. You seriously go on & on about the walking you did. Wow! How pathetic of a guest you would be!
Talk about repentance, and our need for it, I suggest you do it right now and every time you approach the altar for communion until you are sure He has forgiven you for this!
Matthew 25:31-46
This is a disqualifier -- not a qualifier [other than the realization that real faith works...otherwise, if it's not real faith to begin with, it won't work when applied in a public setting...a real faith won't stay bottled up "indoors" in somebody's mind...but I guess you stopped associating that with "faith" long ago]
This is just like the parable where a man had his major debt forgiven and then turned around & berated a man who owed him even less. The one who initially forgave the debter said the ensuing action disqualified the earlier forgiveness; and he was then locked away to repay the debt.
Even if this man had forgiven the smaller debt, such an action was no "qualifier" to receive forgiveness on the other debt! The forgiveness & the grace behind it was free...it wasn't earned based upon what he did; it was forfeited because of what he failed to do. (I have a verse tucked somewhere I can dig out where Paul shows that works nullifies grace; and that's what you're doing, too!)
Matthew 24:13
This verse admittedly puts more focus on what we do than any of the others. Scripture repeatedly talks about us persevering, overcoming, enduring to the end. All true.
But all of this is what the Holy Spirit & Christ accomplishes in and through us:
* "To this end I strenuously contend with all the energy Christ so powerfully works in me." (Col. 1:29)
Here we have Paul giving 100% credit to Christ for this "energy" of endurance. Why do you seek to rob attribution from Christ, Cronos? Why would you stress Paul's "contention" when Paul himself gives 100% glory to Christ?
* ...continue to work out your salvation with fear and trembling, 13 for it is God who works in you to will and to act in order to fulfill his good purpose. (Phil. 2:12-13)
Here, Paul is saying, yes, we "work out" God's salvation in us...but here he gives 100% credit & glory to God for how we act & even what we will. Why do you see to rob attribution from God, Cronos?
The same is true of the Holy Spirit. Jesus told His disciples not to worry about what they would say when they're brought before magistrates...that the Holy Spirit would guide them with what to say (Matthew 10). And several other verses like that one highlight the Holy Spirit operating in and through us.
Do you believe Scripture or not, Cronos?
Utter out-of-context distortion -- to cite this James passage in conjunction with an anti "faith alone" perspective.
Why?
Because you equate "believe" in this context -- what the demons are doing...which is mere cognitive intellectual acknowledgement that God exists...with trusting faith...which in no unmistakeable terms could be said as to what they are doing!!!!
Do you really contend that demons are operating on "faith alone" principle??? Really????
Shame! Shame! How pathetic of an argument is that??
What do you take us for?
ALL: To hear Cronos tell it, apparently he thinks demons are indeed operating on Christian faith...but that their bad deeds undercut such faith...and therefore, they don't go far enough.
Wow!
You do realize, doncha, that a given "pope" (& there've been some doozies in RC history) is one of those "self interpreters," doncha?
Shall I recount the histories of some of these popes in whom you've placed seemingly unquestionable trust as the final arbiter of Biblical truth?
You do realize, doncha, that a given "pope" (& there've been some doozies in RC history) is one of those "self interpreters," doncha?Shall I recount the histories of some of these popes in whom you've placed seemingly unquestionable trust as the final arbiter of Biblical truth?
This is a point of massive confusion for non-Catholics, and, frankly, some Catholics. The pope does not exist outside of the Church. And he is also not really "the final arbiter of Biblical truth" as you describe him. Rather, the Church is. We look to the entire history of the Church, and to all she has said, and prayed, and that which has been accepted by her as unquestionably reliable by constant witness and use in order to understand what we read in the Bible. If a pope comes out tomorrow and says that John 6 doesn't really reflect a teaching on the Eucharist no Catholic would accept it. It would be one man's opinion, and a bad one. Why? Because it flatly contradicts the 2,000 year teaching of the Church. Pope's are authoritative, but only so long as they remain within the confines of the Church's consistent understanding and teaching authority. They confirm us in our faith; they don't invent it.
People like to exaggerate things the Holy Father says for their own benefit, but actually there is nothing controversial about what the pope said as quoted in this article. In fact, what he said here is already done by every reasonable Protestant I have ever known. Every reasonable Christian knows that one has to consider any single statement from Scripture within the whole context in order to know whether it is meant to be taken as literally true on its own, or rather as contributing to a point being made through a greater segment of text. For instance, is it "literally true" when Christ said "This is my body" over bread? We say yes, given the context of the entire Scriptures and their witness to the Eucharistic faith of the Church. We also say yes given the historic witness of the Church throughout history. However, and very ironically, most of the people shouting that Catholics deny the Bible in believing that not every sentence of the Bible must be "literally true," would say this single sentence is actually not literally true. What the Holy Father is talking about here is actually what 99% of Christians do every time they read the Bible. Some want to make things controversial, but nothing said here actually is.
What you say about "faith alone" only makes sense if you first define "faith" as having only "indoor" qualities -- and automatically excluding faith as having "outdoor" dimensions.
It seems to me that you are making faith as an interior intellectual quality a construct, or a fiction, on the part of Catholics. But, it is obvious that St. James, in his epistle, refers to faith in exactly this way, and so it is hardly inaccurate. Accepting a thing as true, intellectually, but not in such a way as to seek the grace of God and not so as to be moved by that faith to action is to have, according to St. James, "faith alone." And, it doesn't save.
Yes, please do!
whom credit & glory belong for these acts of faith! --> now evidently you never read my post 265 where I said Of course, these don't "save us" per se, since it is Christ's sacrifice on the Cross that grants us our salvation that we can accept or reject.
or 262 all salvation comes from Christ the Head
or 269 Justification has been merited for us by the Passion of Christ who offered himself on the cross as a living victim, holy and pleasing to God, and whose blood has become the instrument of atonement for the sins of all men
Mark 16:16 He who believes and is baptized will be saved. -- you twist a lot of words to contradict Jesus -- He said this quite clearly, "He who believes AND IS BAPTISED is saved" -- as 1 Pet 3:20-21 reiterates In it only a few people, eight in all, were saved through water, 21 and this water symbolizes baptism that now saves you also—not the removal of dirt from the body but the pledge of a clear conscience toward God.[e] It saves you by the resurrection of Jesus Christ, -- now if you wish to disregard the Bible, that's your choice. Remember, The Glory is to GOD that has saved is in this -- the salvation is by the resurrection of JEsus Christ -- Glory to God, not man
Luke 13:3 [U]nless you repent you will all likewise perish. -- again, Jesus is very clear. Take Jesus's own words first -- what does He say? "unless you repent, you will perish" -- God gives us the grace to repent yes, but we must accept this grace
John 6:54 -- again, Jesus is very clear. Why try to put words into His mouth? If you have a problem with what Jesus said -- take it up with Him
Matt 25:31-46 --> no one said it's a qualifier. I just pointed it out that it is not faith ALONE that saves
Matt 24:13 --> Why reference Paul for what Jesus has clearly said? He who endureth to the end is saved -- I never said that it is anyone but Jesus who gives us the power to do this --> Why don't you get this into your head before you go accussing folks, I continuously said and say that we are saved by God's grace, we give 100% credit for our ability to repent, to believe, to endure, to share in His body etc --> I only said it is not faith ALONE, but GRACE ALONE that saves us --> read before accusing this is what Jesus said
Isn't Jesus pretty clear? you MUST have faith to be saved by the freely given grace of salvation, however, it is not faith ALONE
Do you believe Jesus's words or not?
Out of context? Hardly — James points out that it is not faith ALONE that saves us but it is God’s grace that saves us. Even demons have “faith” in God’s power and that Jesus Christ is the Son of God, but they are not saved. It is only through God’s grace that we are saved.
whom credit & glory belong for these acts of faith! --> now evidently you never read my post 265 where I said Of course, these don't "save us" per se, since it is Christ's sacrifice on the Cross that grants us our salvation that we can accept or reject.
or 262 all salvation comes from Christ the Head
or 269 Justification has been merited for us by the Passion of Christ who offered himself on the cross as a living victim, holy and pleasing to God, and whose blood has become the instrument of atonement for the sins of all men
Mark 16:16 He who believes and is baptized will be saved. -- you twist a lot of words to contradict Jesus -- He said this quite clearly, "He who believes AND IS BAPTISED is saved" -- as 1 Pet 3:20-21 reiterates In it only a few people, eight in all, were saved through water, 21 and this water symbolizes baptism that now saves you also—not the removal of dirt from the body but the pledge of a clear conscience toward God.[e] It saves you by the resurrection of Jesus Christ, -- now if you wish to disregard the Bible, that's your choice. Remember, The Glory is to GOD that has saved is in this -- the salvation is by the resurrection of JEsus Christ -- Glory to God, not man
Luke 13:3 [U]nless you repent you will all likewise perish. -- again, Jesus is very clear. Take Jesus's own words first -- what does He say? "unless you repent, you will perish" -- God gives us the grace to repent yes, but we must accept this grace
John 6:54 -- again, Jesus is very clear. Why try to put words into His mouth? If you have a problem with what Jesus said -- take it up with Him
Matt 25:31-46 --> no one said it's a qualifier. I just pointed it out that it is not faith ALONE that saves
Matt 24:13 --> Why reference Paul for what Jesus has clearly said? He who endureth to the end is saved -- I never said that it is anyone but Jesus who gives us the power to do this --> Why don't you get this into your head before you go accussing folks, I continuously said and say that we are saved by God's grace, we give 100% credit for our ability to repent, to believe, to endure, to share in His body etc --> I only said it is not faith ALONE, but GRACE ALONE that saves us --> read before accusing this is what Jesus said
Isn't Jesus pretty clear? you MUST have faith to be saved by the freely given grace of salvation, however, it is not faith ALONE
Do you believe Jesus's words or not?
Over bread? Is Jesus not the "bread of heaven"? Why the false choice -- having to choose between "body" and "bread?" Did not Jesus use the word "bread" to describe Himself 11 times between John 6:32-58? What? Isn't "Bread" as a Jesus self-description good enough for you?
However, and very ironically, most of the people shouting that Catholics deny the Bible in believing that not every sentence of the Bible must be "literally true," would say this single sentence is actually not literally true.
Look @ John 6:51-55. Jesus uses the word "real" twice in v. 55: "This bread is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.”...For my flesh is real food and my blood is real drink." (John 6:51,55)
If you're going to focus on "being Biblical"...then let's use the words Jesus used to describe Himself, which I have no qualms with as you contend: His flesh is indeed the Bread of heaven; we consume Him; and His flesh is "REAL food"...
Real = true; authentic; genuine...you're the one tossing in the word "literal" into Jesus' verbiage of John 6 as a reaction vs. those who symbolize. I don't symbolize it; but neither do I attach a literal biting-into-the knuckles of Jesus. Jesus didn't use the word "literal"; He said "real" -- and I believe Him as knowing what He was talking about.
What the Holy Father is talking about here is actually what 99% of Christians do every time they read the Bible.
Sorry. Not so. A high % of Christians do not try to "symbolize" or "spiritualize" away the reality of John 6. This shows your utter poverty of studying the history of the Reformation; elsewise you'd realize the nuanced positions of the major Catholic breakaway groups & their stance on John 6 (Lutherans; Anglicans; Episcopalians, etc.).
Some want to make things controversial, but nothing said here actually is.
Well, you just "shot" yourself in the foot here.
First...
...you condemn Protestants for not reading John 6 as "real." (Yeah, I know you use the word "literal" -- but your implication is that we don't think Jesus flesh & blood is real food & drink; sorry, but many do).
Second...
...Your very words above seem to indicate that you didn't realize the initial controversy arising among Jesus' "second wave" of less-intimate disciples...
...which indicates you haven't read John 6:66-67:
66 From this time many of his disciples turned back and no longer followed him. 67 “You do not want to leave too, do you?” Jesus asked the Twelve.
So Jesus' words in John were "controversy-free," eh?
Please, it's certainly OK if you're partially ignorant on this subject as it's revealed in John 6. (Hey, we're all ignorant or partially ignorant on MANY subjects). But please don't try to export that ignorance as something other than what it is.
Yes, fully out of context to apply relational faith to demons! Faith is a personal living trust. The context of your earlier usage of this was to imply that the faith demons have is "incomplete" -- as if the "faith" they have would be fine if only they would "flesh it out" with whatever 1-2-3 spiritual checklist you would like to add to "faith."
— James points out that it is not faith ALONE that saves us but it is God’s grace that saves us.
"Grace" = "gift"...and "faith" is one of God's gifts.
17 Every good and perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of the heavenly lights, who does not change like shifting shadows. 18 He chose to give us birth through the word of truth, that we might be a kind of firstfruits of all he created. (James 1:17-18)
Even demons have “faith” in God’s power and that Jesus Christ is the Son of God, but they are not saved.
Because it was not personally applied, but in fact was rejected long ago. Sorry, but Demons aren't your "poster boys" for incomplete faith -- as if they were prime-time reps of your "faith alone" crowd. They are actually your poster entities for being faithless...having substituted a false god (Lucifer) long ago!
Before Judas ever betrayed Jesus with bad deeds, he did so relationally that already pitted him vs. Jesus at the time of the Last Supper!
You somehow keep thinking that you can define "faith" outside a context of personal trust!
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