How to Read the Bible as a Catholic [How? Don't take indv. verses as "literally true", says Pope]

National Catholic Register ^ | 05/05/2011 | Cindy Wooden

[Alex Murphy]

VATICAN CITY (CNS) — While Catholics believe the Bible is inspired by the Holy Spirit and that it is true, one cannot take individual biblical quotes or passages and say each one is literally true, Pope Benedict XVI said.

“It is possible to perceive the sacred Scriptures as the word of God” only by looking at the Bible as a whole, “a totality in which the individual elements enlighten each other and open the way to understanding,” the Pope wrote in a message to the Pontifical Biblical Commission.

“It is not possible to apply the criterion of inspiration or of absolute truth in a mechanical way, extrapolating a single phrase or expression,” the Pope wrote in the message released May 5 at the Vatican.

The commission of biblical scholars, an advisory body to the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, met at the Vatican May 2-6 to continue discussions about “Inspiration and Truth in the Bible.”

In his message, the Pope said clearer explanations about the Catholic position on the divine inspiration and truth of the Bible were important because some people seem to treat the Scriptures simply as literature, while others believe that each line was dictated by the Holy Spirit and is literally true.

Neither position is Catholic, the Pope said.

[SuziQ]

After a couple of thousand years, the oral history isn't quite as accurate as it could be. I'm not saying the men who wrote down the Old Testament were not telling the truth, I'm just saying it's not a 'history', so much as a saga of the Jewish people as they're led to God,then fail to trust in Him and are taken into slavery a couple of times. After all this, God promises them a Messiah.

The Old Testament is the inspired Word of God, and we are to learn lessons from it, as God taught them through His interactions with His Chosen People. The New Testament is also inspired by God, but it's more contemporaneous, because it's written fairly soon after Jesus's Death, Resurrection, and Ascension, and the major parts are written by His Disciples, or men who were disciples of His Disciples, so there hadn't been a long passage of time before it was written.

[SuziQ]

The Pope didn’t ‘discredit’ the Bible. He’s simply cautioning against using one passage to make a point, without looking at the entire context. That’s what some liberals do when trying to justify sinful behaviors like abortion or homosexuality.

[SuziQ]

It also means, by your own definition, that the scriptures are robbed of their power, authority, legitimacy, and truth.

Not at all. As I said, Scripture is inspired by God. Just look at the beauty of the Song of Solomon, the poetry of the Psalms, and the frustration in Job's struggles. There is power there, and the truth of God, in the form of songs and stories, as opposed to simply lessons of faith and truth. And the authority has always been there, too, since Moses brought down the Ten Commandments, and the Jews began their formal worship under the direction of the 70 chosen by Moses to help him minister to the Jews in his care.

The Pope recognizes that power, authority, legitimacy and truth, and that's why he's pointing out that it's easy to twist the meaning, if you simply use a passage without putting it into the context of what was going on when that passage occurs. Taking Scripture out of context can damage it's truthfulness, and cause real confusion.

[SuziQ]

The Torah is the recounting of what the Lord God told Moses and Aaron as they were leading the Israelites out of bondage in Egypt to the Promised Land, as well how His people reacted to His Word. It is sometimes 'legislative' as in Leviticus, to give the people the Law by which God wants them to live. It also encompasses activities of those people, for example the censuses taken, and recounted in "Numbers".

It is inspired by God, but it doesn't mean God dictated it word for word to Moses. Doesn't make it any less important for not having been written down as it happened.

[papertyger]

After a couple of thousand years, the oral history isn't quite as accurate as it could be.

Really? What part have you found in error?

[SuziQ]

I never said anything about errors. I said that those who wrote down what had been passed on to them did so with God’s inspiration. It’s clear that not everything was written as it happened, so, as in any narrative, specifics may not be completely accurate, but the overall meaning is clear. The Old Testament is the story of God’s Covenant with His Chosen People, and how those people turned away from time to time, not trusting in God. The various books of the Bible, written at different times, tell the stories of what befell the Jews when that happened, and how God promised to send them a Messiah.

[papertyger]

It’s clear that not everything was written as it happened....

This is now the third time i am asking you to substantiate, validate, and/or justify an assertion that is nothing more than a baseless prejudice against the ancients about a process of transmitting information, of which, it is painfully obvious you are completely ignorant.

Unless you can produce manuscript "a" which purports to be a copy of, say, Isaiah, then produce a later manuscript "b" which also purports to be a copy of Isaiah, and show substantive differences between the two, your opinion on this matter is little more than a remark about the snappy outfit the naked emperor is wearing.

[SuziQ]

I'm employing simple logic. The story of Creation, in Genesis, wasn't written by Adam and Eve. As far as anyone knows, they didn't keep a journal of their daily activities, nor did they write down what God had done before they were created.

At some point in time, the descendants of Abraham, inspired by God to do so, started writing down what they had learned from those who came before, but many of those stories were not written down as the events occurred.

Again, that doesn't diminish the importance of those Bible stories to us, nor does it reduce the truthfulness of God's Holy Scripture in the lives of His Chosen People, or we, their descendants.

[SkyPilot]

It's always interesting when a poster will not or cannot tell the truth.

Rashputin, that is a not so subtle way of calling me a liar. I ask politely that you don't do that again. That isn't what this forum is about, and it is uncalled for.

Sorry to disappoint you, but the answer is Option 4 for $1,000 Alex. I was a Catholic for over 35 years. In fact, my family thought I was the most devout of anyone they knew. I never attended an ordination, so I never witnessed the prostration bit. But it doesn't matter. I'll bet you a diet coke that part of holy orders is to pledge devotion to the church, and since the Pope is the head of the church, to him by fiat.

You might want to check which spirit it was that smacked you off of your tricycle and shined a pen light in your eyes when you were on the road to Dairy Queen.

Next, your childish mocking of my relationship with Jesus Christ doesn't deter me one bit. I know what I know, and I'll tell you sincerely, it is my prayer tonight that you come to know Him someday too. Not through the church, but through a true, adult confession of your sins and to accept Him into your life as your Lord and Savior.

I'll ask you the same question I asked another poster. What did it mean when that veil in the Holy of Holies was torn in two?

It meant the elimination of that barrier between man and God. The Jewish High priest was the only one permitted in the Holy of Holies, and only once a year. In fact, if he didn't "do it right" he would literally die.

But when that veil was torn, God and man are united through Jesus Christ. There is no priestly intervention required anymore.

Do you believe in salvation by faith alone (as the bible says?)

Catholics are not taught Ephesians 2:8-9. In fact, this very thread is about a declaration from the Pope that those verses don't really mean what they say they mean.

Moreover, I as dumbstruck the first time I compared the Ten Commandments in my old Catholic Study Bible to the King James Version and learned that the Catholic church has changed the original Greek translation of the Ten Commandments!

http://www.the-ten-commandments.org/romancatholic-tencommandments.html

This is why scripture has power and authority on its own merit. Not on what the Pope says.

[SkyPilot]

Taking Scripture out of context can damage it's truthfulness, and cause real confusion.

And who puts the scripture into context for us?

[SkyPilot]

Speaking of "twisting scripture", how do you respond to what the Catholic church did to the original biblical translation of the Ten Commandments?

http://www.the-ten-commandments.org/romancatholic-tencommandments.html

[Cronos]

Aren't you tired of consistently being wrong?

You were wrong about the prostrating where the priests were prostrating in front of Jesus Christ and the bit that you didn't read the Bible to see the number of people bowing (there IS a difference between bowing and worshipping -- it's in the Bible)

And now another one -- have you ever read Exodus 20:2-17? here it is for you

 ²I am the LORD thy God, which have brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage.

 ³Thou shalt have no other gods before me.

 ⁴Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.

 ⁵Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;

 ⁶And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments.

 ⁷Thou shalt not take the name of the LORD thy God in vain; for the LORD will not hold him guiltless that taketh his name in vain.

 ⁸Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.

 ⁹Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work:

 ¹⁰But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates:

 ¹¹For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.

 ¹²Honour thy father and thy mother: that thy days may be long upon the land which the LORD thy God giveth thee.

 ¹³Thou shalt not kill.

 ¹⁴Thou shalt not commit adultery.

 ¹⁵Thou shalt not steal.

 ¹⁶Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour.

 ¹⁷Thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's house, thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's wife, nor his manservant, nor his maidservant, nor his ox, nor his ass, nor any thing that is thy neighbour's.

Let's count them:

1. Thou shalt have no other gods before me.
2. Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth
3. Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them
4. Thou shalt not take the name of the LORD thy God in vain
5. Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy. But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates:
6. Honour thy father and thy mother
7. Thou shalt not kill
8. Thou shalt not commit adultery.
9. Thou shalt not steal
10. Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour.
11. Thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's house
12. thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's wife
13. nor his manservant, nor his maidservant
14. nor his ox, nor his ass, nor anything that is his neighbors

How many do you read? 14 instructions (you can make it 15 since "Keep the Sabbath day holy" is mutually exclusive from "do not work on the Sabbath"

The present catechism follows the division of the Commandments established by Augustine, which has become traditional in the Catholic Church. It is also that of the Lutheran confession. The Greek Fathers worked out a slightly different division, which is found in the Orthodox Churches and Reformed communities

Now, do you understand? Catholics and Lutherans and yes, even most Orthodox Jews keep the same list -- 20:3 and 20:4 are grouped together

The Orthodox use a different formulation and this was copied by the Reformed

Now, FIRST, you've miscalculated -- there are 14-15 commandments

Secondly, the Lutherans keep the same list of commandments -- are you saying they distorted it too?

Thirdly, most Orthodox Jews keep the same list of commandments -- are you saying they distorted it too?

Fourthly, the Eastern Orthodox formulation is what the Reformed copied, yet I see the reformed accusing our Orthodox brethern with the same iconoclasmic glee as they accuse us

Finally -- the Catholic Church says you can number the commandments whichever way you want, after all, it's just the way of remembering Exodus 20:2-17 -- 14 commandments...

[Cronos]

who puts the scripture into context for us?

Well, we certainly aren't egotists who believe that we can read one excerpt and come to a conclusion on our own -- if we did that we'd make the same innumerable numbers of errors as you have (bowing, now the commandments etc.)

The Holy Spirit guides the community of Christians that is The Church, we, through the centuries, across the world, are Christ's Church and through from Apostolic Times we have been guided by the Holy Spirit into the right context -- we do not make the continuous errors that self interpreters make.

[Cronos]

I never attended an ordination, so I never witnessed the prostration bit.

And yet you felt enough to comment (wrongly) on them? If you were a Catholic, didn't you know that the little red light signifies that the Host is in the Sacristy and that the Host IS the presence of Our Lord and God Jesus Christ?

If you didn't know either of these and yet commented on a picture without knowing anything, what does that say about your powers of judgement?

[Cronos]

And, let me repeat -- bowing is NOT worshipping. You first said in post 177 where your post says that bowing is disallowed biblically and is akin to worshipping, then repeated it in post 191 despite being shown the error in your faulty interpretation.

now you repeat it again, so let me repeat to you: If you actually ever read a Bible you would already know the answer -- besides which I already told you in this same post -- do you read?

I told you in post 181:
Who says the Bible says it is categorically wrong to bow to someone?

go read the bible:

1. Genesis 27:29: 29Let people serve thee, and nations bow down to thee: be lord over thy brethren, and let thy mother's sons bow down to thee: cursed be every one that curseth thee, and blessed be he that blesseth thee.
2. 1 Kings 1:16f: "Bathsheba bowed low and knelt before the king. 'What is it you want?' the king asked."
3. 1 Kings 1:31: "Then Bathsheba bowed low with her face to the ground and, kneeling before the king, said, "May my lord King David live forever!"
4. 1 Samuel 24:8: "Then David went out of the cave and called out to Saul, 'My Lord and king!' When Saul looked behind him, David bowed down and prostrated himself with his face to the ground."
5. 1 Samuel 25:23: "When Abigal saw David, she quickly got off her donkey and bowed down before David with her face to the ground. She fell at his feet. . .
6. 1 Samuel 28:14: "Then Saul knew it was Samuel, and he bowed down and prostrated himself with his face to the ground."
7. 2 Samuel 9:6-8: "When Mephibosheth son of Jonathan, the son of Saul, came to David, he bowed down to pay him honor. David said, 'Mephibosheth! . . . Don't be afraid, for I will surely show you kindness . . .' Mephibosheth bowed down and said, 'What is your servant, that you should notice a dead dog like me?'"
8. 2 Samuel 14:33: "Then the king summoned Absalom, and he came in and bowed down with his face to the ground before the king. And the king kissed Absalom."
9. Genesis 19:1: 1And there came two angels to Sodom at even; and Lot sat in the gate of Sodom: and Lot seeing them rose up to meet them; and he bowed himself with his face toward the ground;
10. Numbers 22:31: 31Then the LORD opened the eyes of Balaam, and he saw the angel of the LORD standing in the way, and his sword drawn in his hand: and he bowed down his head, and fell flat on his face.
11. 2 Kings 2:15: "The company of the prophets from Jericho, who were watching, said, ' The spirit of Elijah is resting on Elisha.' And they went to meet him and bowed to the ground before him."

You see this here -- a lot of not only bowing but even prostrating (which the priests in the pic you posting were prostrating to Jesus Christ)

in Revelation 22:8, it explicitly says that John "fell down to worship at the feet of the angel." The angel rebuked him telling him to "Worship God!" -- the angel was objecting to WORSHIP not the BOWING

you make so many errors and you want to teach us?

Why don't you actually read the bible instead of making gaffe after gaffe? And you think we've committed errors? You don't even read the bible and make so many mistakes in interpretation not only of the Bible but of pictures, etc. sheesh

[Cronos]

SAlvation by Faith alone -- again, you need to read the Bible. Salvation is by GRACE alone

We are saved by God's grace

Yet in the Bible we read "Repent and be saved", then John 6 that he who partakes of the Body and blood of Christ will be saved, then be baptised.

So, it's not faith ALONE.

[Rashputin]

"I was a Catholic for over 35 years."

So, you just forgot that a cross or crucifix was on the alter as well as the Eucharist being present, right? What ever you bet your Coke on, and whatever the pledge, they are prostrate before Christ in that photo and a very simple search will show that to be true. Something most people would do prior to posting a photo and implying otherwise.

[SkyPilot]

So, it's not faith ALONE.

Yes, we are saved by Grace that comes to those who have faith. It is not of ourselves.

The Catholic church says it isn't by Faith ALONE or even by God's GRACE alone. We need more.....

"26. "Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the Council teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation: the one Christ is the mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in his body which is the Church. He himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and Baptism, and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church which men enter through baptism as through a door. Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it." (C.C.C. # 846)"

"Necessary" means they say I need the Catholic church also to be saved.

That is biblical. Now are you catching one about why the "middle man" is bit put off when people read the bible themselves?