Posted on 02/27/2011 8:08:19 PM PST by Natural Law
Faith Without Works? Do Calvinists Actually Read the Christian Bible? Is anyone as mystified as I am at this contradictory and unbiblical Calvinist “Sola Fide” idea that faith without works is sufficient for salvation? How can Calvinists reject James Chapter 2 which states that; “What use is it, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but he has no works? Can that faith save him?” (James 2:14) and "Faith without works is dead" (James 2:26). To do so is antithetical to Scripture.
The Calvinist rejection of James is at best substitutional, permitting Calvinists to conclude that works naturally follow from and are only a result of true faith thus requiring no conscious commitment or consideration. The result is a negation of the call to Beatitude and a rejection of the obligations of the Second Greatest Commandment issued by Jesus Himself.
Borrowing from Hinduism many fringe Calvinists actually practice a form of the Brahiminst caste system in which they profess that their own Salvation was secure from the beginning of time and no obligation exists toward the less fortunate and needy because God rejected their election from the beginning of time.
The substitution of actual, contextual Scripture for the more flattering personal interpretations is a return to the Gnostic heresies that the Church successfully rejected more than a thousand years earlier. They attempt to seek truth through Scripture on their own despite the admonition of Peter who stated; “But know this first of all, that no prophecy of Scripture is a matter of one's own interpretation” (2 Peter 1:20).
Faith alone is insufficient. Adam and Eve had faith yet fell. They spoke directly with God yet succumbed to sin. What about Paul, whom many Calvinists give greater credence than Jesus, when he says; "And if I should have prophesy and should know all mysteries, and all knowledge, and if I should have all faith, so that I could move mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing." (1 Corinthians 13: 2).
Perhaps the citations some will more closely identify with; the demons whom Jesus expelled.
"And behold they [the demons] cried out saying: What have we to do with thee, Jesus Son of God? art thou come hither to torment us before the time?" (Matt 8: 29).
The demons had faith certainly equal to that of the Calvinists. Not only do they profess that Jesus is the Son of God, but they also have a profound knowledge of Scripture and profess belief in the final judgment. Peter didn’t profess that Christ is the Son of God in Matthew 16:16-- eight chapters later. Why didn’t Jesus didn't make the demons the rock on which He built His Church? He required Works to build His Church.
2. Sin, sacrifice -- note that the Last Supper is commemorated in the Eucharist which is the central part of the Mass, yet is not the entire mass. REdemption of Sin and sacrifice are what Christ's salvation was about -- don't you believe that?
3. Priests -- the bible points out for the presence of presbyteroi etc, which is the derivation of the term "priest in all non-English languages, not "hierus" which is the Greek term for priest
4. Actually people do celebrate the mass in the New Testament. Here are examples:
The Breaking of Bread because Jesus used this rite, part of a Jewish meat when as master of the table he blessed and distributed the bread,
Mt 14:19
| 19And he commanded the multitude to sit down on the grass, and took the five loaves, and the two fishes, and looking up to heaven, he blessed, and brake, and gave the loaves to his disciples, and the disciples to the multitude. |
| 36And he took the seven loaves and the fishes, and gave thanks, and brake them, and gave to his disciples, and the disciples to the multitude. |
| 6And he commanded the people to sit down on the ground: and he took the seven loaves, and gave thanks, and brake, and gave to his disciples to set before them; and they did set them before the people. |
| 19When I brake the five loaves among five thousand, how many baskets full of fragments took ye up? They say unto him, Twelve. 20And when the seven among four thousand, how many baskets full of fragments took ye up? And they said, Seven. 21And he said unto them, How is it that ye do not understand? |
| 26And as they were eating, Jesus took bread, and blessed it, and brake it, and gave it to the disciples, and said, Take, eat; this is my body. |
| 24And when he had given thanks, he brake it, and said, Take, eat: this is my body, which is broken for you: this do in remembrance of me. |
| 13And, behold, two of them went that same day to a village called Emmaus, which was from Jerusalem about threescore furlongs. 14And they talked together of all these things which had happened. 15And it came to pass, that, while they communed together and reasoned, Jesus himself drew near, and went with them. 16But their eyes were holden that they should not know him. 17And he said unto them, What manner of communications are these that ye have one to another, as ye walk, and are sad? 18And the one of them, whose name was Cleopas, answering said unto him, Art thou only a stranger in Jerusalem, and hast not known the things which are come to pass there in these days? 19And he said unto them, What things? And they said unto him, Concerning Jesus of Nazareth, which was a prophet mighty in deed and word before God and all the people: 20And how the chief priests and our rulers delivered him to be condemned to death, and have crucified him. 21But we trusted that it had been he which should have redeemed Israel: and beside all this, to day is the third day since these things were done. 22Yea, and certain women also of our company made us astonished, which were early at the sepulchre; 23And when they found not his body, they came, saying, that they had also seen a vision of angels, which said that he was alive. 24And certain of them which were with us went to the sepulchre, and found it even so as the women had said: but him they saw not. 25Then he said unto them, O fools, and slow of heart to believe all that the prophets have spoken: 26Ought not Christ to have suffered these things, and to enter into his glory? 27And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself. 28And they drew nigh unto the village, whither they went: and he made as though he would have gone further. 29But they constrained him, saying, Abide with us: for it is toward evening, and the day is far spent. And he went in to tarry with them. 30And it came to pass, as he sat at meat with them, he took bread, and blessed it, and brake, and gave to them. 31And their eyes were opened, and they knew him; and he vanished out of their sight. 32And they said one to another, Did not our heart burn within us, while he talked with us by the way, and while he opened to us the scriptures? 33And they rose up the same hour, and returned to Jerusalem, and found the eleven gathered together, and them that were with them, 34Saying, The Lord is risen indeed, and hath appeared to Simon. 35And they told what things were done in the way, and how he was known of them in breaking of bread. |
| 42And they continued stedfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship, and in breaking of bread, and in prayers |
| 46And they, continuing daily with one accord in the temple, and breaking bread from house to house, did eat their meat with gladness and singleness of heart, |
| 7And upon the first day of the week, when the disciples came together to break bread, Paul preached unto them, ready to depart on the morrow; and continued his speech until midnight. |
| 11When he therefore was come up again, and had broken bread, and eaten, and talked a long while, even till break of day, so he departed |
| 15By him therefore let us offer the sacrifice of praise to God continually, that is, the fruit of our lips giving thanks to his name. |
| 5Ye also, as lively stones, are built up a spiritual house, an holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices, acceptable to God by Jesus Christ. |
| 13I will take the cup of salvation, and call upon the name of the LORD. |
| 17I will offer to thee the sacrifice of thanksgiving, and will call upon the name of the LORD. |
| 11For from the rising of the sun even unto the going down of the same my name shall be great among the Gentiles; and in every place incense shall be offered unto my name, and a pure offering: for my name shall be great among the heathen, saith the LORD of hosts. |
| 3And he humbled thee, and suffered thee to hunger, and fed thee with manna, which thou knewest not, neither did thy fathers know; that he might make thee know that man doth not live by bread only, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of the LORD doth man live. |
| 16The cup of blessing which we bless, is it not the communion of the blood of Christ? The bread which we break, is it not the communion of the body of Christ? |
1335 The miracles of the multiplication of the loaves, when the Lord says the blessing, breaks and distributes the loaves through his disciples to feed the multitude, prefigure the superabundance of this unique bread of his Eucharist.
Mt 14:13-21
| 13When Jesus heard of it, he departed thence by ship into a desert place apart: and when the people had heard thereof, they followed him on foot out of the cities. 14And Jesus went forth, and saw a great multitude, and was moved with compassion toward them, and he healed their sick. 15And when it was evening, his disciples came to him, saying, This is a desert place, and the time is now past; send the multitude away, that they may go into the villages, and buy themselves victuals. 16But Jesus said unto them, They need not depart; give ye them to eat. 17And they say unto him, We have here but five loaves, and two fishes. 18He said, Bring them hither to me. 19And he commanded the multitude to sit down on the grass, and took the five loaves, and the two fishes, and looking up to heaven, he blessed, and brake, and gave the loaves to his disciples, and the disciples to the multitude. 20And they did all eat, and were filled: and they took up of the fragments that remained twelve baskets full. 21And they that had eaten were about five thousand men, beside women and children. |
| 32Then Jesus called his disciples unto him, and said, I have compassion on the multitude, because they continue with me now three days, and have nothing to eat: and I will not send them away fasting, lest they faint in the way. 33And his disciples say unto him, Whence should we have so much bread in the wilderness, as to fill so great a multitude? 34And Jesus saith unto them, How many loaves have ye? And they said, Seven, and a few little fishes. 35And he commanded the multitude to sit down on the ground. 36And he took the seven loaves and the fishes, and gave thanks, and brake them, and gave to his disciples, and the disciples to the multitude. 37And they did all eat, and were filled: and they took up of the broken meat that was left seven baskets full. 38And they that did eat were four thousand men, beside women and children. 39And he sent away the multitude, and took ship, and came into the coasts of Magdala. |
| 11This beginning of miracles did Jesus in Cana of Galilee, and manifested forth his glory; and his disciples believed on him. |
| 25Verily I say unto you, I will drink no more of the fruit of the vine, until that day that I drink it new in the kingdom of God. |
The Ezekiel passage describes the way of the law, whereas our salvation is through Christ, even if we transgress the law, it isn’t our iniquity upon which God looks, but the faith of Christ which is counted for righteousness and by which we have been redeemed.
Sorry but cutting and pasting large swaths from Catholic propaganda sites does not impres. Augustine was firmly Sola Fida, Sola Gracia, Sola Christos.
i'm not talking about what your pastors or whatever website you refer to tells you in the form of snippets, but actual works by Augustine?
Let's go back to your post 65 where you say Did Augustine actually read the Bible? Because Augustine’s position on faith and salvation is the exact same as Calvin’s. In fact Augustine is the primary source, along with scripture, cited by Calvin as authority for his position.
Now, if you believe that Augustine's position on faith and salvation is the same as Calvin's, then why does Augustine say the statements below?
From St. Augustine, Sermon to Catechumens on the Creed 7:15, 8:16No swathes from any sites -- only what +Augustine himself says in his books --> have you ever read them? If you had, you would realise that Augustine was far from being Calvinist. In fact Augustine was you could say hyper-Catholic. He specifically rejected Sola Fide as we see above."When you shall have been baptized, keep to a good life in the commandments of God so that you may preserve your baptism to the very end. I do not tell you that you will live here without sin, but they are venial sins which this life is never without. Baptism was instituted for all sins. For light sins, without which we cannot live, prayer was instituted. . . . But do not commit those sins on account of which you would have to be separated from the body of Christ. Perish the thought! For those whom you see doing penance have committed crimes, either adultery or some other enormities. That is why they are doing penance. If their sins were light, daily prayer would suffice to blot them out. . . . In the Church, therefore, there are three ways in which sins are forgiven: in baptisms, in prayer, and in the greater humility of penanceAugustine says that Baptism was instituted for all sins, meaning that
- baptism is for the remission of sins (do you believe that? Well, +Augustine did)
- "For light sins...daily prayer would suffice to blot them out..." -->Daily prayer is needed to blot out sins -- not sola fide
- "There are three ways in which sins are forgiven: in baptism, in prayer, and in the greater humility of penance" --> Do you believe in the sacrament of penance? Well, +Augustine did and this is not sola Fide...
Let's go back to your post 65 where you say Did Augustine actually read the Bible? Because Augustine’s position on faith and salvation is the exact same as Calvin’s. In fact Augustine is the primary source, along with scripture, cited by Calvin as authority for his position.
Now, if you believe that Augustine's position on faith and salvation is the same as Calvin's, then why does Augustine say the statements below?
From St. Augustine, "A Treastise on Grace and Free Will" where Augustine wrote:No swathes from any sites -- only what +Augustine himself says in his books --> have you ever read them? If you had, you would realise that Augustine was far from being Calvinist. In fact Augustine was you could say hyper-Catholic. He specifically rejected Sola Fide as we see above.
- FAITH WITHOUT GOOD WORKS IS NOT SUFFICIENT FOR SALVATION. (caps are his!)
- Unintelligent persons, however, with regard to the apostle's statement: "We conclude that a man is justified by faith without the works of the law," have thought him to mean that faith suffices to a man, even if he lead a bad life, and has no good works --> note +Augustine is saying that to believe in faith without works is unintelligent. This is the antithesis of sola fide
Luke 6:46 (NKJV)
But why do you call Me “Lord, Lord,’ and not do the things which I say?
Matthew 7:21 (NKJV)
“Not everyone who says to Me, “Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven.
Now, answer my question. Was God’s first act to create something that was a mess?
Then according to Calvin’s theory that person would not have been elect right? As I understand it when Calvin put forth the concept of “election” that meant that a person was one of those who would be saved. If the person ends up not saved they would not have been one of the elect.
We may be talking past each other. You may be right in that a person can say they believe in Jesus and not really mean it but they wouldn’t be one of the elect.
Discuss the issues all you want, but do NOT make it personal.
note -- I asked the first question which you did not answer but retorted with another question before I called you out.
Now you ask another question.
| 1In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. 2And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters. 3And God said, Let there be light: and there was light. 4And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness. 5And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day. 6And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters. 7And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so. 8And God called the firmament Heaven. And the evening and the morning were the second day. 9And God said, Let the waters under the heaven be gathered together unto one place, and let the dry land appear: and it was so. 10And God called the dry land Earth; and the gathering together of the waters called he Seas: and God saw that it was good. |
These were 24-hour days. God creates heaven and earth (small e). Day 3 God calls dry land Earth (capital E).
These were literally 24-hour days.
There is something about this in the Hebrew, I can't remember, let me ping someone who does --> Zionist Conspirator, can you explain this better -- wasn't there something about two different Hebrew words used?
Go ahead and discuss the theological issues all you want, the moderators know when posters are waving a bloody shirt.
“Go ahead and discuss the theological issues all you want, the moderators know when posters are waving a bloody shirt.” —> I don’t comprehend what you’re saying, sorry
A pruned branch may be grafted back in
Then according to Calvin’s theory that person would not have been elect right?
Not at all. According to Scripture, not Calvin, God will call unto himself all those who will believe.
Now, let's take closer look at the passage, because you are leaving out an important part.
Matthew 7:21 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’ 23 And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.’So what we have here is:
a. Jesus saying not everyone who says Lord, Lord will enter Heaven.
b. That should cause us to ask why did Jesus not allow them in, after all they prophesied in His name, cast out demons in His name, and did many mighty works in His name.
c. Jesus answers that He did not know them. What does that mean? There was no salvific relationship. These poor souls went through life thinking if they taught about Jesus, did mighty works, etc that would earn them a ticket in. Bus as Jesus said He did not know them. These are the people who think going to church every time the door is open, feeding the poor and performing good works is the ticket. They never confront their sin and look to Jesus as their Savior. They never saw their works as filthy rags.
Anyone who approaches the throne with faith in Christ will be in. That is what Calvin taught, that is what the Church fathers taught. That is what Scripture teaches.
here's +Augustine, the Calvinist's favorite who is decidedly NOT Calvinistic in his Sermon to Catechumens on the Creed 7:15, 8:16
"When you shall have been baptized, keep to a good life in the commandments of God so that you may preserve your baptism to the very end. I do not tell you that you will live here without sin, but they are venial sins which this life is never without. Baptism was instituted for all sins. For light sins, without which we cannot live, prayer was instituted. . . . But do not commit those sins on account of which you would have to be separated from the body of Christ. Perish the thought! For those whom you see doing penance have committed crimes, either adultery or some other enormities. That is why they are doing penance. If their sins were light, daily prayer would suffice to blot them out. . . . In the Church, therefore, there are three ways in which sins are forgiven: in baptisms, in prayer, and in the greater humility of penanceAugustine says that Baptism was instituted for all sins, meaning that
According to your “young earth” contention you have to admit that the first act turned out a mess.
Genesis 1:1 1In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. 2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep.
It’s not until the second day that He began to organize the mess that the earth was in. He separated the light from the darkness on the first day but the earth was still a mess after the first day.
If you believe that Genesis 1:1 is the first that this earth existed you must conclude that God’s first act resulted in a mess to have to be put in order.
>> wasn't there something about two different Hebrew words used?<<
The two words are Bara (ex nihilo – out of nothing) and Asah (to make out of pre-existing material)
Both have been translated “create” which gives most who read only English the impression that everything we know today was created from nothing which it wasn’t.
Oh, Yes, they were all literal 24 hr days. That, however, does not mean that everything in verse one was included in the first 24 hr day.
Jesus saying not everyone who says Lord, Lord will enter HeavenSo, according to the Calvinistic philosophy, there is limited atonement, that according to the followers of Calvin, Christ's salvation was only for some men. Quite unbiblicalJesus answers that He did not know them. What does that mean? There was no salvific relationship. These poor souls went through life thinking if they taught about Jesus, did mighty works, etc that would earn them a ticket in. Bus as Jesus said He did not know them
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