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Sola Fide; Do Calvinists Actually Read the Christian Bible?
Self | 27 Feb 2011 | Natural Law

Posted on 02/27/2011 8:08:19 PM PST by Natural Law

Faith Without Works? Do Calvinists Actually Read the Christian Bible? Is anyone as mystified as I am at this contradictory and unbiblical Calvinist “Sola Fide” idea that faith without works is sufficient for salvation? How can Calvinists reject James Chapter 2 which states that; “What use is it, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but he has no works? Can that faith save him?” (James 2:14) and "Faith without works is dead" (James 2:26). To do so is antithetical to Scripture.

The Calvinist rejection of James is at best substitutional, permitting Calvinists to conclude that works naturally follow from and are only a result of true faith thus requiring no conscious commitment or consideration. The result is a negation of the call to Beatitude and a rejection of the obligations of the Second Greatest Commandment issued by Jesus Himself.

Borrowing from Hinduism many fringe Calvinists actually practice a form of the Brahiminst caste system in which they profess that their own Salvation was secure from the beginning of time and no obligation exists toward the less fortunate and needy because God rejected their election from the beginning of time.

The substitution of actual, contextual Scripture for the more flattering personal interpretations is a return to the Gnostic heresies that the Church successfully rejected more than a thousand years earlier. They attempt to seek truth through Scripture on their own despite the admonition of Peter who stated; “But know this first of all, that no prophecy of Scripture is a matter of one's own interpretation” (2 Peter 1:20).

Faith alone is insufficient. Adam and Eve had faith yet fell. They spoke directly with God yet succumbed to sin. What about Paul, whom many Calvinists give greater credence than Jesus, when he says; "And if I should have prophesy and should know all mysteries, and all knowledge, and if I should have all faith, so that I could move mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing." (1 Corinthians 13: 2).

Perhaps the citations some will more closely identify with; the demons whom Jesus expelled.

"And behold they [the demons] cried out saying: What have we to do with thee, Jesus Son of God? art thou come hither to torment us before the time?" (Matt 8: 29).

The demons had faith certainly equal to that of the Calvinists. Not only do they profess that Jesus is the Son of God, but they also have a profound knowledge of Scripture and profess belief in the final judgment. Peter didn’t profess that Christ is the Son of God in Matthew 16:16-- eight chapters later. Why didn’t Jesus didn't make the demons the rock on which He built His Church? He required Works to build His Church.


TOPICS: Apologetics; Catholic; Theology
KEYWORDS: calvinism; catholic; hatred; intolerance; misrepresentation; protestant; religion; religiousintolerance; vanity
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To: Cvengr
Actually, anyone who says that we can lose our salvation once we are saved is actually trampling the blood of Jesus Christ underfoot as common blood of bulls and goats.
They are proclaiming that the blood of Jesus Christ is not Holy, and is powerless to save and to keep those who put their trust and hope in Jesus Christ.
They are blaspheming the blood of Jesus Christ.
Another thing of note ? they are also trampling the Holy Spirit, the spirit of Grace underfoot also when they proclaim that a Christian can lose their Salvation.
Does not the bible tell us that once we are Saved, born again, that God " SEALS " us with the Holy Spirit ?
Are we not " Sealed " with the Holy Spirit ? the seal, the mark of authenticity, ownership, and authority ?
They are actually saying that the Holy Spirit is not able seal and to keep those who have trusted in Jesus Christ.
They, by proclaiming that a Christian can lose his Salvation, are actually prophaning the Holy Spirit.
141 posted on 02/28/2011 9:27:09 PM PST by American Constitutionalist (The fool has said in his heart, " there is no GOD " ..)
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To: American Constitutionalist
Typo Correction:

( * Was Abraham justified by works in of it's self ? rather, no, but ? faith, faith that was put into action, motion, Abraham was acting on what GOD had told him.* )
142 posted on 02/28/2011 9:59:51 PM PST by American Constitutionalist (The fool has said in his heart, " there is no GOD " ..)
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To: MarkBsnr
" Sounds like Calvin admitted that God created evil "

Sounds, and " is " or " has " are 2 different things.
Yes, it may sound to you works based Salvationers, but the bible is very very clear that GOD is not the one who temps a man.

143 posted on 02/28/2011 10:14:08 PM PST by American Constitutionalist (The fool has said in his heart, " there is no GOD " ..)
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To: johngrace
Those who say that a Christian can lose their Salvation are doing is ?
Saying that Jesus Christ's blood is not powerful enough to save them, so they have to trust in something else to save them, or earn their Salvation.

Another thing that they do is ?

Those who trust and believe in works, is ?
If they fall, and in their minds lose their Salvation, then ?
They have to crucify Christ all over again, because in the Old Testament, the high Priest brought the sacrifice lamb to GOD for the sins of the whole nation, because their works, and keeping the law did not remove their sins.

You see ? what you are actually doing is ?
Since you believe that you can lose your Salvation, you are calling on Jesus Christ to come down every time you sin, and then ? try regain your Salvation.
The book of Hebrews tells us that Jesus Christ entered the Holy place for us as our High Priest only one time, and one time only, and one time for all time.

It's the works based Salvationers who crucify Christ afresh, and since you crucify Christ afresh every time you think you lost your Salvation, there is no more sacrifice for sin.
Go check it out, read the book of Hebrews.
You, in effect ? have trampled underfoot the son of God, Jesus Christ, and has accounted his blood as common as bulls and goats.
144 posted on 02/28/2011 10:52:17 PM PST by American Constitutionalist (The fool has said in his heart, " there is no GOD " ..)
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To: Cronos
Those who say that a Christian can lose their Salvation are doing is ?
Saying that Jesus Christ's blood is not powerful enough to save them, so they have to trust in something else to save them, or earn their Salvation.

Another thing that they do is ?

Those who trust and believe in works, is ?
If they fall, and in their minds lose their Salvation, then ?
They have to crucify Christ all over again, because in the Old Testament, the high Priest brought the sacrifice lamb to GOD for the sins of the whole nation, because their works, and keeping the law did not remove their sins.

You see ? what you are actually doing is ?
Since you believe that you can lose your Salvation, you are calling on Jesus Christ to come down every time you sin, and then ? try regain your Salvation.
The book of Hebrews tells us that Jesus Christ entered the Holy place for us as our High Priest only one time, and one time only, and one time for all time.

It's the works based Salvationers who crucify Christ afresh, and since you crucify Christ afresh every time you think you lost your Salvation, there is no more sacrifice for sin.
Go check it out, read the book of Hebrews.
You, in effect ? have trampled underfoot the son of God, Jesus Christ, and has accounted his blood as common as bulls and goats.
145 posted on 02/28/2011 10:53:45 PM PST by American Constitutionalist (The fool has said in his heart, " there is no GOD " ..)
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To: American Constitutionalist
With all due respect it is addressed to believers or Christians. The whole letter is sent to believers. As it goes on:

1John8" If WE(Christians) claim to be without sin, WE(Christians) deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us(CHRISTIANS). 9 If WE(Christians) confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive US(Christians) our sins and purify US(Christians) from all unrighteousness. 10 If WE(Ditto) claim we have not sinned, we make him out to be a liar and his word is not in us."

We and Us are Christians in the above for you to say otherwise is wrong.

146 posted on 02/28/2011 11:04:43 PM PST by johngrace (God so loved the world so he gave his only son! Praise Jesus and Hail Mary!)
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To: CynicalBear
So, then what do you take this to mean?
1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. 2 Now the earth was formless and empty, darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was hovering over the waters. 3 And God said, “Let there be light,” and there was light. 4 God saw that the light was good, and he separated the light from the darkness. 5 God called the light “day,” and the darkness he called “night.” And there was evening, and there was morning—the first day.
Do you believe that the 1st day was not a 24-hour day and that the subsequent days were 24-hour days?
147 posted on 02/28/2011 11:27:40 PM PST by Cronos ("They object to tradition saying that they themselves are wiser than the apostles" - Ire.III.2.2)
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To: circlecity
Dear circlecity

I have given you the exact words from the exact writings of +Augustine.

He was not a sola fide proponent. +Augustine taught what the Church teaches -- that we are saved by grace. There is no "only faith" in his beliefs.

Here are the key points of what I posted above and what Augustine wrote:

Dear circlecity,

It is not saved by faith alone -- we are saved by grace alone. it is the grace of God that has saved us through Christ's one-time sacrifice on the Cross.

Scripture emphasises that it is not a "Lord, Lord, I believe" and zoom, but an actual change, a "work" of acceptance and repentence that is needed.

We are told in Phil 2:12 to 12Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling. and beyond this in many Biblical passages we're told that we must do something beyond just saying I believe. Jesus Himself said inMatt. 7:21

Not every one who says to me, "Lord, Lord," shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven
yet Paul wrote in Rom 10:13
13For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
This is not a false contradiction, but on reading the Bible in entirety we see what this means, because Jesus tells us to endure, to stay true to the Faith to the end:

Matt 10:22

22And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved.
matt 24:13
13But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.
Mark 13:13
13And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

we must "endure" in our Faith to the end, not reject our God-given salvation

We are asked to confess, to repent in Rom. 10:9

9That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

AND, we are told that Baptism is also critical in 1 Pet. 3:21

21The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:

148 posted on 03/01/2011 12:02:43 AM PST by Cronos ("They object to tradition saying that they themselves are wiser than the apostles" - Ire.III.2.2)
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To: Cvengr
Cvengr: If we can lose our salvation, then our eternal life is not eternal.

I'm sorry, but that is a non-sequitor. The Bible clearly says in Ezekiel 33:12-16 that we can lose our salvation in this life.

God has promised us eternal life

These are not contradictions as the Bible does not contradict itself. Our eternal life "if we endureth to the end" is eternal, as God has promised. Yet Matt 10:22

22And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved.
--> remember, no enduring, no saved by the grace of God, by the salvation freely given by Christ's one-time sacrifice.

Cvengr: Who would then qualify? Not the sinner, because a sinner doesn’t follow the path of God’s Plan, he has missed the target. Is it the sinner who returns to God after having lost his salvation? --> I'm sorry, cv, but you are mistakenly believing that your works can save you, they can't -- if you work and do not believe, do not have faith, you can't be saved. If you have faith and do not display this in your deeds and works, then, well, demons too have faith, yet they have not good works.

A sinner who returns to God after having lost his salvation can regain this -- remember he does not win his own salvation, he only gets it by believing in Christ who has provided the salvation.

An analogy is a parent freely giving, well, candy to a 2 year old. The 2 year old does not do anything to deserve this, yet gets it from the loving parent. If the 2 year old loses it and does not ask for this again, they have none. If the 2 year old asks for it, he/she gets it again. Our God is a loving God

Cvengr: because that would require the perfect sacrifice to be offered again -- sorry, again a non-sequitor, the perfect one-time sacrifice is done, finished. It's out there, the salvation, the grace, just waiting for us to accept it. If we accept it and later reject it (like the righteous man in Eze 33), God is gracious enough to allow us to come back and re-accept it.

Cvengr: So if it is possible for anybody to lose salvation, nobody will have it because 1) we are all sinners, and 2) since God knew this from eternity past, and if this is what He really meant, then He has been a liar to man all along, making any promise he has given to not be trustworthy.

Yes, we are all sinners and yes, God foreknows all. He knows those who will accept and those who will not, he knows those who will accept and then reject and those who accept-reject and then accept again. This takes away nothing from His omnipotence or omnipresence. This takes away nothing from His freely offered grace of salvation.

God's promise is in Mark 16:16

16He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.
Also John 6:40
40 For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day.”

Cvengr: So who follows and accepts salvation may be lost? Those who lack faith in Christ and His work on the Cross. Not "lack faith", but loses faith --> and remember that faith can be regained, just as the 2 year old can pluck up the courage to ask for more of the freely offered salvation

149 posted on 03/01/2011 12:16:42 AM PST by Cronos ("They object to tradition saying that they themselves are wiser than the apostles" - Ire.III.2.2)
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To: American Constitutionalist
The smug elect Brahmins of Calvinism look down on the lower Castes (Methodists, Pentecostals, Lutherans, orthodoxy etc) and consider it all to be karma.

you disbelieve this? Go read the OPC website where it says According to the OPC OrthoPresbyterianC: "Christians should not celebrate the Seder or other Jewish festivals. "

Enjoy arguing with them

150 posted on 03/01/2011 12:20:12 AM PST by Cronos ("They object to tradition saying that they themselves are wiser than the apostles" - Ire.III.2.2)
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To: American Constitutionalist
Calvinists deny Genesis and that God created man good

The Calvinists have made their deity a deity that creates evil.

By saying this you have made God into a monster who DECIDES on creating evil.

Since they do that, they hence believe their deity has evil in Him.

If God created evil than evil is part of the essence of God.Thus,by this belief Christ has evil in Him as part of His essence since the second person of the Trinity is God incarnate.

Horrific! Don't you even see the error in all this?

151 posted on 03/01/2011 12:22:53 AM PST by Cronos ("They object to tradition saying that they themselves are wiser than the apostles" - Ire.III.2.2)
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To: American Constitutionalist
Ezekiel 33:12
12 “Therefore, son of man, say to your people, ‘If someone who is righteous disobeys, that person’s former righteousness will count for nothing. And if someone who is wicked repents, that person’s former wickedness will not bring condemnation. The righteous person who sins will not be allowed to live even though they were formerly righteous.’

13 If I tell a righteous person that they will surely live, but then they trust in their righteousness and do evil, none of the righteous things that person has done will be remembered; they will die for the evil they have done.

14 And if I say to a wicked person, ‘You will surely die,’ but they then turn away from their sin and do what is just and right— 15 if they give back what they took in pledge for a loan, return what they have stolen, follow the decrees that give life, and do no evil—that person will surely live; they will not die.


16 None of the sins that person has committed will be remembered against them. They have done what is just and right; they will surely live.
Do you want to say that Ezekiel is wrong?
152 posted on 03/01/2011 12:24:09 AM PST by Cronos ("They object to tradition saying that they themselves are wiser than the apostles" - Ire.III.2.2)
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To: pankot; Natural Law; agere_contra
Even Martin Luther characterized James as an “epistle of straw

Are you saying that you believe James to be uninspired? Or what do you mean by this?

153 posted on 03/01/2011 12:26:05 AM PST by Cronos ("They object to tradition saying that they themselves are wiser than the apostles" - Ire.III.2.2)
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To: Cronos
Do you want to say that Ezekiel is wrong?

Check it again. These aren't Ezekiel's words.

154 posted on 03/01/2011 12:28:04 AM PST by Chunga (Go, Sarah, GO!! - Jim Robinson)
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To: Religion Moderator
Note: "I am a Messianic Jew... you have a problem with Jews ? " ==> This guy is trying to falsely create anti-semitism. Any criticism or debate on this is not allowed on FR Religion Forum. You yourself have said that However, because Judaism also involves genetics posters cannot be as rude as they would be in instances where a theological label is a matter of choice. For instance, it is ok in "open" RF debate to say "Scientologists are crazy" but it is anti-Semitic to say "Jews are crazy." --> hence the poster is pushing the envelope in this. If he wishes to debate, fine, but to push it to "Ok, I'm a Jew, got a problem with that", when there is no discussion on Judaism, indicates the intention to push the envelope and to end a debate.

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/religion/2653570/posts?page=164

155 posted on 03/01/2011 12:34:29 AM PST by Cronos ("They object to tradition saying that they themselves are wiser than the apostles" - Ire.III.2.2)
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To: pankot; agere_contra
In John 6:29, Jesus tells His audience to have faith in Him and to believe his literal words and then he shocks them by saying
48 I am the bread of life.
49 Your ancestors ate the manna in the wilderness, yet they died.
50 But here is the bread that comes down from heaven, which anyone may eat and not die.
51 I am the living bread that came down from heaven. Whoever eats this bread will live forever. This bread is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.

52 Then the Jews began to argue sharply among themselves, “How can this man give us his flesh to eat?”
53 Jesus said to them, “Very truly I tell you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you.
54 Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day.
55 For my flesh is real food and my blood is real drink.
56 Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me, and I in them.
57 Just as the living Father sent me and I live because of the Father, so the one who feeds on me will live because of me.
58 This is the bread that came down from heaven. Your ancestors ate manna and died, but whoever feeds on this bread will live forever.”
59 He said this while teaching in the synagogue in Capernaum.
60 On hearing it, many of his disciples said, “This is a hard teaching. Who can accept it?”
61 Aware that his disciples were grumbling about this, Jesus said to them, “Does this offend you?
62 Then what if you see the Son of Man ascend to where he was before!
63 The Spirit gives life; the flesh counts for nothing. The words I have spoken to you—they are full of the Spirit[c] and life.
64 Yet there are some of you who do not believe.” For Jesus had known from the beginning which of them did not believe and who would betray him.
65 He went on to say, “This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless the Father has enabled them.”
66 From this time many of his disciples turned back and no longer followed him.
67 “You do not want to leave too, do you?” Jesus asked the Twelve
68 Simon Peter answered him, “Lord, to whom shall we go? You have the words of eternal life
69 We have come to believe and to know that you are the Holy One of God.”

Asking them to believe in eating the literal body and blood of Christ!

156 posted on 03/01/2011 12:35:49 AM PST by Cronos ("They object to tradition saying that they themselves are wiser than the apostles" - Ire.III.2.2)
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To: American Constitutionalist
So, you believe it's good to read 2 Macc 12:41-46?
[41] Then they all blessed the just judgment of the Lord, who had discovered the things that were hidden.

[42] And so betaking themselves to prayers, they besought him, that the sin which had been committed might be forgotten. But the most valiant Judas exhorted the people to keep themselves from sin, forasmuch as they saw before their eyes what had happened, because of the sins of those that were slain.

[43] And making a gathering, he sent twelve thousand drachms of silver to Jerusalem for sacrifice to be offered for the sins of the dead, thinking well and religiously concerning the resurrection,

[44] (For if he had not hoped that they that were slain should rise again, it would have seemed superfluous and vain to pray for the dead,)

[45] And because he considered that they who had fallen asleep with godliness, had great grace laid up for them.

[46] It is therefore a holy and wholesome thought to pray for the dead, that they may be loosed from sins.

+James has clearly stated and +Paul agreed sayind "But he himself shall be saved, yet so as by fire" and "Do not err," he says; "neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor the unmanly, nor homosexuals, nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the Kingdom of God."

so do you think that both Paul and James were written only to Jews?

157 posted on 03/01/2011 12:39:26 AM PST by Cronos ("They object to tradition saying that they themselves are wiser than the apostles" - Ire.III.2.2)
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To: American Constitutionalist
I'm talking about Christ's Church, the One Holy Apostolic Catholic Church.

Do you accept the Tanakh instead of the Septuagint?

158 posted on 03/01/2011 12:41:35 AM PST by Cronos ("They object to tradition saying that they themselves are wiser than the apostles" - Ire.III.2.2)
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To: American Constitutionalist; johngrace
if you read in the Bible, starting from John 6:30, we read
30 So they asked him, “What sign then will you give that we may see it and believe you? What will you do?
31 Our ancestors ate the manna in the wilderness; as it is written: ‘He gave them bread from heaven to eat.’
32 Jesus said to them, “Very truly I tell you, it is not Moses who has given you the bread from heaven, but it is my Father who gives you the true bread from heaven.
33 For the bread of God is the bread that comes down from heaven and gives life to the world.”
34 “Sir,” they said, “always give us this bread.”
35 Then Jesus declared, “I am the bread of life. Whoever comes to me will never go hungry, and whoever believes in me will never be thirsty.
36 But as I told you, you have seen me and still you do not believe.
They asked Him for a sign, saying that Moses gave them manna in the desert. If Jesus (according to them) was aspiring to the level of Moses, He should do something as big as that.

and Jesus says something strange to them -- He says Moses didn't give you bread, My father did, and bread that comes down from heaven. Then He says that HE is the bread of life, HE is the manna -- and manna was to be eaten.

The Jews made the same mistake you did, which is to think he was speaking as a metaphor.

Yet Jesus REPEATED the same thing, saying
48 I am the bread of life. 49 Your ancestors ate the manna in the wilderness, yet they died.
50 But here is the bread that comes down from heaven, which anyone may eat and not die.
51 I am the living bread that came down from heaven. Whoever eats this bread will live forever. This bread is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.”
And now the crowd is openly rebellious saying “How can this man give us his flesh to eat?”
And
53 Jesus said to them, “Very truly I tell you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you.
54 Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day.
55 For my flesh is real food and my blood is real drink.
56 Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me, and I in them.
57 Just as the living Father sent me and I live because of the Father, so the one who feeds on me will live because of me.
58 This is the bread that came down from heaven. Your ancestors ate manna and died, but whoever feeds on this bread will live forever.
Note -- Jesus doesn't clear up the Metaphor, like he did in Matt. 16:5–12
5 When they went across the lake, the disciples forgot to take bread.
6 “Be careful,” Jesus said to them. “Be on your guard against the yeast of the Pharisees and Sadducees.”
7 They discussed this among themselves and said, “It is because we didn’t bring any bread.”
8 Aware of their discussion, Jesus asked, “You of little faith, why are you talking among yourselves about having no bread?
9 Do you still not understand? Don’t you remember the five loaves for the five thousand, and how many basketfuls you gathered?
10 Or the seven loaves for the four thousand, and how many basketfuls you gathered?
11 How is it you don’t understand that I was not talking to you about bread? But be on your guard against the yeast of the Pharisees and Sadducees.”
12 Then they understood that he was not telling them to guard against the yeast used in bread, but against the teaching of the Pharisees and Sadducees.
So, Jesus DOES indicate when it is a metaphor and when it isn't.
In this case, look at the reaction of his DISCIPLES, people who had heard his teachings for so long and followed him
60 On hearing it, many of his disciples said, “This is a hard teaching. Who can accept it?”...

66 From this time many of his disciples turned back and no longer followed him.
You cannot say that this was just bread and wine of that this is a metphor for coming and having faith in the Lord or some kind of metphor for believing in Christ because of the reaction of the Jews and the very language -- to eat one's flesh and drink the blood means to do violence on some one. You see it even in Hindi where a threat is "Mein tera Khoon pie jaongaa" or "I will drink your blood" -- and this is among vegetarians! To drink a persons blood means a serious threat of injury.So, if you believe that this was just a metphor, you mean to say that Christ is rewarding people for crucifying Him?!! That's nonsensical, sorry.

You cannot even say it was a metaphor by incorreclty comparing it to John 10:9 (I am the gate/doorway) or John 15:1 (I am the true vine) is because this is not referenced in the entire verse in the same way as John 6 which shows the entire incident from start to finish of Jesus saying His body is to be eaten, repeating it and seeing his disciples go and not correcting them (as he did in Matthew 16). Even in the literal sense -- Christ says he is the gateway to heaven and the vine such that we get nourishment with him as the connecting path. But John 6 is much much more than mere symbolism as He categorically states that "For my flesh is food indeed, and my blood is drink indeed" (John 6:55).

Even at the end of John 6, Jesus rebukes those who think of what He has said as a metaphor by emphasising that
61 Aware that his disciples were grumbling about this, Jesus said to them, “Does this offend you?
62 Then what if you see the Son of Man ascend to where he was before!
63 The Spirit gives life; the flesh counts for nothing. The words I have spoken to you—they are full of the Spirit[e] and life.
64 Yet there are some of you who do not believe.”
Jesus repeats the rebuke against just thinking in terms of human logic (Calvin's main problem) by saying
John 8:15 You judge by human standards; I pass judgment on no one.
16 But if I do judge, my decisions are true, because I am not alone. I stand with the Father, who sent me.
Just using human logic as Calvinist thought does, without God's blessings behind it fails in grace.John 6:63 does not refer to Jesus's statement of his own flesh, if you read in context but refers to using human logic instead of dwelling on God's words.

And, all of this is confirmed in Paul's writings to the Corinthians (1 Cor. 10:16)
6 Is not the cup of thanksgiving for which we give thanks a participation in the blood of Christ? And is not the bread that we break a participation in the body of Christ?
and also 1 Cor 11:27-29
27 So then, whoever eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner will be guilty of sinning against the body and blood of the Lord.
28 Everyone ought to examine themselves before they eat of the bread and drink from the cup.
29 For those who eat and drink without discerning the body of Christ eat and drink judgment on themselves.
How clear can Paul get? "The bread IS a participation in the body of Christ" and "who eats the bread... will have to answer for the body and blood of the Lord" This is not just mere bread and wine anymore. This is the body and blood of Christ.

Finally, the Earliest Christians also said any consideration of this as just a metaphor was false -- Ignature of Antioch (disciple of Apotle John) wrote in AD 110 wrote about heretics who bstain from the Eucharist and from prayer, because they do not confess that the Eucharist is the flesh of our Savior Jesus Christ, flesh which suffered for our sins and which the Father, in his goodness, raised up again" (Letter to the SMyrnaens). The earliest Christians beleived this to be the ACTUAL body of Christ. Why, they were also accused by pagans of being cannibals and Justin MArtyr had to write a defence to the Emperor saying "Not as common bread or common drink do we receive these; but since Jesus Christ our Savior was made incarnate by the word of God and had both flesh and blood for our salvation, so too, as we have been taught, the food which has been made into the Eucharist by the Eucharistic prayer set down by him, and by the change of which our blood and flesh is nourished, . . . is both the flesh and the blood of that incarnated Jesus"

in view of this overwhelming evidence from scripture and supplemented by the practise and belief of the earliest Christians, we can only say that there IS a real presence in the Eucharist. Martin Luther too believed it -- he said that Who, but the devil, has granted such license of wresting the words of the holy Scripture? Who ever read in the Scriptures, that my body is the same as the sign of my body? or, that is is the same as it signifies? What language in the world ever spoke so? It is only then the devil, that imposes upon us by these fanatical men. --> only Calvin/Zwingli turned around what Christ had said
159 posted on 03/01/2011 12:42:47 AM PST by Cronos ("They object to tradition saying that they themselves are wiser than the apostles" - Ire.III.2.2)
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To: American Constitutionalist; Ruy Dias de Bivar
was against the printing press ?

Ha Ha!!! Your lack of knowledge on history is as bad as your lack of biblical knowledge

The first printing press in Europe was by a devout Catholic, Gutenburg -- no opposition to the printing press at all. Where do you dig up your history? From the Big book of David Koresh?

160 posted on 03/01/2011 12:44:23 AM PST by Cronos ("They object to tradition saying that they themselves are wiser than the apostles" - Ire.III.2.2)
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