The Real Presence [Church Fathers on the Holy Eucharist, cont'd ]

The Church Fathers ^ | 100AD-431AD

[marshmallow]

Irenaeus

“He took from among creation that which is bread, and gave thanks, saying, ‘This is my body.’ The cup likewise, which is from among the creation to which we belong, he confessed to be his blood. He taught the new sacrifice of the new covenant, of which Malachi, one of the twelve [minor] prophets, had signified beforehand: ‘You do not do my will, says the Lord Almighty, and I will not accept a sacrifice at your hands. For from the rising of the sun to its setting my name is glorified among the Gentiles, and in every place incense is offered to my name, and a pure sacrifice; for great is my name among the Gentiles, says the Lord Almighty’ [Mal. 1:10–11]. By these words he makes it plain that the former people will cease to make offerings to God; but that in every place sacrifice will be offered to him, and indeed, a pure one, for his name is glorified among the Gentiles” (Against Heresies 4:17:5 [A.D. 189]).

Ignatius of Antioch

“I have no taste for corruptible food nor for the pleasures of this life. I desire the bread of God, which is the flesh of Jesus Christ, who was of the seed of David; and for drink I desire his blood, which is love incorruptible” (Letter to the Romans 7:3 [A.D. 110]).

“Take note of those who hold heterodox opinions on the grace of Jesus Christ which has come to us, and see how contrary their opinions are to the mind of God. . . . They abstain from the Eucharist and from prayer because they do not confess that the Eucharist is the flesh of our Savior Jesus Christ, flesh which suffered for our sins and which that Father, in his goodness, raised up again. They who deny the gift of God are perishing in their disputes” (Letter to the Smyrnaeans 6:2–7:1 [A.D. 110]).

Justin Martyr

“We call this food Eucharist, and no one else is permitted to partake of it, except one who believes our teaching to be true and who has been washed in the washing which is for the remission of sins and for regeneration [i.e., has received baptism] and is thereby living as Christ enjoined. For not as common bread nor common drink do we receive these; but since Jesus Christ our Savior was made incarnate by the word of God and had both flesh and blood for our salvation, so too, as we have been taught, the food which has been made into the Eucharist by the Eucharistic prayer set down by him, and by the change of which our blood and flesh is nurtured, is both the flesh and the blood of that incarnated Jesus” (First Apology 66 [A.D. 151]).

Irenaeus

“If the Lord were from other than the Father, how could he rightly take bread, which is of the same creation as our own, and confess it to be his body and affirm that the mixture in the cup is his blood?” (Against Heresies 4:33–32 [A.D. 189]).

“He has declared the cup, a part of creation, to be his own blood, from which he causes our blood to flow; and the bread, a part of creation, he has established as his own body, from which he gives increase unto our bodies. When, therefore, the mixed cup [wine and water] and the baked bread receives the Word of God and becomes the Eucharist, the body of Christ, and from these the substance of our flesh is increased and supported, how can they say that the flesh is not capable of receiving the gift of God, which is eternal life—flesh which is nourished by the body and blood of the Lord, and is in fact a member of him?” (ibid., 5:2).

Clement of Alexandria

“’Eat my flesh,’ [Jesus] says, ‘and drink my blood.’ The Lord supplies us with these intimate nutrients, he delivers over his flesh and pours out his blood, and nothing is lacking for the growth of his children” (The Instructor of Children 1:6:43:3 [A.D. 191]).

Tertullian

“[T]here is not a soul that can at all procure salvation, except it believe whilst it is in the flesh, so true is it that the flesh is the very condition on which salvation hinges. And since the soul is, in consequence of its salvation, chosen to the service of God, it is the flesh which actually renders it capable of such service. The flesh, indeed, is washed [in baptism], in order that the soul may be cleansed . . . the flesh is shadowed with the imposition of hands [in confirmation], that the soul also may be illuminated by the Spirit; the flesh feeds [in the Eucharist] on the body and blood of Christ, that the soul likewise may be filled with God” (The Resurrection of the Dead 8 [A.D. 210]).

Hippolytus

“‘And she [Wisdom] has furnished her table’ [Prov. 9:2] . . . refers to his [Christ’s] honored and undefiled body and blood, which day by day are administered and offered sacrificially at the spiritual divine table, as a memorial of that first and ever-memorable table of the spiritual divine supper [i.e., the Last Supper]” (Fragment from Commentary on Proverbs [A.D. 217]).

Origen

“Formerly there was baptism in an obscure way . . . now, however, in full view, there is regeneration in water and in the Holy Spirit. Formerly, in an obscure way, there was manna for food; now, however, in full view, there is the true food, the flesh of the Word of God, as he himself says: ‘My flesh is true food, and my blood is true drink’ [John 6:55]” (Homilies on Numbers 7:2 [A.D. 248]).

Cyprian of Carthage

“He [Paul] threatens, moreover, the stubborn and forward, and denounces them, saying, ‘Whosoever eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord unworthily, is guilty of the body and blood of the Lord’ [1 Cor. 11:27]. All these warnings being scorned and contemned—[lapsed Christians will often take Communion] before their sin is expiated, before confession has been made of their crime, before their conscience has been purged by sacrifice and by the hand of the priest, before the offense of an angry and threatening Lord has been appeased, [and so] violence is done to his body and blood; and they sin now against their Lord more with their hand and mouth than when they denied their Lord” (The Lapsed 15–16 [A.D. 251]).

Council of Nicaea I

“It has come to the knowledge of the holy and great synod that, in some districts and cities, the deacons administer the Eucharist to the presbyters [i.e., priests], whereas neither canon nor custom permits that they who have no right to offer [the Eucharistic sacrifice] should give the Body of Christ to them that do offer [it]” (Canon 18 [A.D. 325]).

Aphraahat the Persian Sage

“After having spoken thus [at the Last Supper], the Lord rose up from the place where he had made the Passover and had given his body as food and his blood as drink, and he went with his disciples to the place where he was to be arrested. But he ate of his own body and drank of his own blood, while he was pondering on the dead. With his own hands the Lord presented his own body to be eaten, and before he was crucified he gave his blood as drink” (Treatises 12:6 [A.D. 340]).

Cyril of Jerusalem

“The bread and the wine of the Eucharist before the holy invocation of the adorable Trinity were simple bread and wine, but the invocation having been made, the bread becomes the body of Christ and the wine the blood of Christ” (Catechetical Lectures 19:7 [A.D. 350]).

“Do not, therefore, regard the bread and wine as simply that; for they are, according to the Master’s declaration, the body and blood of Christ. Even though the senses suggest to you the other, let faith make you firm. Do not judge in this matter by taste, but be fully assured by the faith, not doubting that you have been deemed worthy of the body and blood of Christ. . . . [Since you are] fully convinced that the apparent bread is not bread, even though it is sensible to the taste, but the body of Christ, and that the apparent wine is not wine, even though the taste would have it so, . . . partake of that bread as something spiritual, and put a cheerful face on your soul” (ibid., 22:6, 9).

Ambrose of Milan

“Perhaps you may be saying, ‘I see something else; how can you assure me that I am receiving the body of Christ?’ It but remains for us to prove it. And how many are the examples we might use! . . . Christ is in that sacrament, because it is the body of Christ” (The Mysteries 9:50, 58 [A.D. 390]).

Theodore of Mopsuestia

“When [Christ] gave the bread he did not say, ‘This is the symbol of my body,’ but, ‘This is my body.’ In the same way, when he gave the cup of his blood he did not say, ‘This is the symbol of my blood,’ but, ‘This is my blood’; for he wanted us to look upon the [Eucharistic elements] after their reception of grace and the coming of the Holy Spirit not according to their nature, but receive them as they are, the body and blood of our Lord. We ought . . . not regard [the elements] merely as bread and cup, but as the body and blood of the Lord, into which they were transformed by the descent of the Holy Spirit” (Catechetical Homilies 5:1 [A.D. 405]).

Augustine

“Christ was carried in his own hands when, referring to his own body, he said, ‘This is my body’ [Matt. 26:26]. For he carried that body in his hands” (Explanations of the Psalms 33:1:10 [A.D. 405]).

“I promised you [new Christians], who have now been baptized, a sermon in which I would explain the sacrament of the Lord’s Table. . . . That bread which you see on the altar, having been sanctified by the word of God, is the body of Christ. That chalice, or rather, what is in that chalice, having been sanctified by the word of God, is the blood of Christ” (Sermons 227 [A.D. 411]).

…

“What you see is the bread and the chalice; that is what your own eyes report to you. But what your faith obliges you to accept is that the bread is the body of Christ and the chalice is the blood of Christ. This has been said very briefly, which may perhaps be sufficient for faith; yet faith does not desire instruction” (ibid., 272).

Council of Ephesus

“We will necessarily add this also. Proclaiming the death, according to the flesh, of the only-begotten Son of God, that is Jesus Christ, confessing his resurrection from the dead, and his ascension into heaven, we offer the unbloody sacrifice in the churches, and so go on to the mystical thanksgivings, and are sanctified, having received his holy flesh and the precious blood of Christ the Savior of us all. And not as common flesh do we receive it; God forbid: nor as of a man sanctified and associated with the Word according to the unity of worth, or as having a divine indwelling, but as truly the life-giving and very flesh of the Word himself. For he is the life according to his nature as God, and when he became united to his flesh, he made it also to be life-giving” (Session 1, Letter of Cyril to Nestorius [A.D. 431]).

[MEGoody]

It appears we will simply have to agree to disagree. For now we see as through a glass darkly, but then we shall know in full. :)

[MEGoody]

I DID NOT SAY THESE WORDS. JESUS SAID THEM!

Indeed, He did. He also said if your eye offends you, pluck it out. If you hand or foot causes you to sin, cut it off.

Yet I've never heard of a single Catholic doing any of those things.

[Bobsvainbabblings]

The point is that the Scriptures you provide do not support your ridiculous assertions about God being bound by some “rules”, or that God must respect your “sovereign’ free will. There is only one Sovereign in this universe, and it isn’t you.

I agree that God is sovereign in this universe. When He placed me in this universe, He subjected me to rules. One of those rules is that I have free will. 

John 15:16 - “You did not choose me, but I chose you......”

I agree that He chose me. I used my freewill to accept that invitation using the way, or rule, He provided, His Son. 

Romans 9:14-16 - “What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Not at all! For he says to Moses, ‘I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.’ It does not, therefore, depend on man’s desire or effort, but on God’s mercy.”

This is the same principle. I know you don't like the term, rules, so we will use another terminology, a set of instructions.

God used His Son's obedience to fulfill this promise. He gave a set of instructions as to who these people will be. If you believe His Son died for your sins, He will you show mercy and compassion.

For those who don't, He will show no mercy or compassion.

He confirms this with a promise, a set of instructions for Himself.

If we believe on His Son, He will forgive our sins, raise us from the dead and give us eternal life with Him.

Do you think He has to abide by that promise?

If you say yes, you are saying He has to follow the rules He makes.

If you say no, it confirms what you have said about him being all powerful and can do what he wants.

When you get to that god's heaven, what can prevent that god from saying, "I know you did all the things I told you to do for salvation but I have changed my mind. You go to the pit"!

Nothing, because that god is not bound by any rules.

That is not the God of scripture. BVB

 

 
 

The point is that the Scriptures you provide do not support your ridiculous assertions about God being bound by some “rules”, or that God must respect your “sovereign’ free will. There is only one Sovereign in this universe, and it isn’t you.

I agree that God is sovereign in this universe. When He placed me in this universe, He subjected me to rules. One of those rules is that I have free will. 

John 15:16 - “You did not choose me, but I chose you......”

I agree that He chose me. I used my freewill to accept that invitation using the way, or rule, He provided, His Son. 

Romans 9:14-16 - “What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Not at all! For he says to Moses, ‘I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.’ It does not, therefore, depend on man’s desire or effort, but on God’s mercy.”

This is the same principle. I know you don't like the term, rules, so we will use another terminology, a set of instructions.

God used His Son's obedience to fulfill this promise. He gave a set of instructions as to who these people will be. If you believe His Son died for your sins, He will you show mercy and compassion.

For those who don't, He will show no mercy or compassion.

He confirms this with a promise, a set of instructions for Himself.

If we believe on His Son, He will forgive our sins, raise us from the dead and give us eternal life with Him.

Do you think He has to abide by that promise?

If you say yes, you are saying He has to follow the rules He makes.

If you say no, it confirms what you have said about him being all powerful and can do what he wants.

When you get to that god's heaven, what can prevent that god from saying, "I know you did all the things I told you to do for salvation but I have changed my mind. You go to the pit"!

Nothing, because that god is not bound by any rules.

That is not the God of scripture. BVB

 

 
 

[paulist]

“One of those rules is that I have free will.”

Do you have a Scripture passage that supports this specific assertion? Specifically that “free will” is a rule in the universe.

“I agree that He chose me. I used my freewill to accept that invitation using the way, or rule, He provided, His Son.”

Non-sensical. in your explanation, His choice is absolutely meaningless. Our choice is therefore sovereign and determinate.

I notice you have yet to provide a single Scripture reference for your earlier posts. I provide Scripture, while you do nothing but write your feelings. Give me an applicable Scripture passage for each one of your following quotes.

1. “God can do nothing to stop what we do, right or wrong. He also cannot stop what Satan does.”

2. “God can only suggest how we find truth.”

3. “He can only keep trying to show us the right way desiring all will use their free will to chose salvation”

4. “Just as God gives rules for our lives, He has given rules to Himself He cannot violate. Our freewill is one of those rules.”

5. “One of those rules allows us to have free will to make decisions, good or bad, in our lives. If He violates any rules He has made, including our free will, He is a liar and can’t be trusted about anything He says.”

[Jvette]

Deflection.

Under the law, those things, like stoning an adulteress were not radical to the Jews who followed Jesus.

“Unless you eat my flesh and drink my blood, you will have no life within you.”

“For my body is true food and my blood, true drink.”

Now that was radical. The prohibitions against both having been firmly established in the OT.

Yet, Jesus says that to them. Allows them to walk away. And never once says that what He meant was symbolically.

When someone deflects, I consider my point one that cannot be countered.

I’ll ask again. Anyone care to answer?

Why does Jesus say this very hard thing?

What was His purpose?

Why doesn’t He just stop with the manna comparison?

He could have but He doesn’t. And at the Last Supper, he holds up the bread and wine and says, “Take and eat, this is my body which WILL be given up for you.” “Take and drink, this is my blood, the blood of new and everlasting covenant, it WILL be shed for you and for many so that sins will be forgiven.”

After He ascended to heaven and the Holy Spirit came upon them, they then knew what He meant and you see them meeting to “break bread” and speak of the Lord’s Supper.

[Bobsvainbabblings]

 

Genesis 2:16-17 (New King James Version)

16 And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, “Of every tree of the garden you may freely eat;

17 but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die.”

Do you think God could command Adam to eat or not eat of the trees of the garden if Adam did not have a choice, free will, to eat or not eat of the trees?

Do you think God could punish Adam, and us, if Adam was incapable of making a choice?

The fall gave us a sin nature. It did not take away are choice. It only makes it harder for us to choose God. BVB

 

[paulist]

No more until you provide Scripture references for your earlier assertions. This hit and run routine is getting old.

[Bobsvainbabblings]

I am sorry for not answering sooner. I looked back to where you first posted to me. It included an insult about what a pathetic god I worshiped because I had the audacity to claim that God, as the One giving rules, has to abide by rules He sets for us, IE, our free will.

 

In subsequent posts you have claimed I am controlled by everything imaginable up to and including the god of this world, Satan. 

 

Perhaps you are right and we should end this conversation at this time. You can worship the all powerful god that you are content with who has nothing to constrain him including promises he has made. 

 

I will continue to worship my wussy God who I can trust because I know He is not a liar and keeps His promises.

 

Good luck with your god, BVB 

[MEGoody]

Under the law, those things, like stoning an adulteress were not radical to the Jews who followed Jesus.

Please show me ANYWHERE in the law where a person was to pluck out their own eye or cut off their own hand or foot. In fact, can you even show me where that was to have been done TO them? No, of course you can't. When taken literally, that was a radical an idea to those who followed the law as eating flesh and drinking blood.

Why does Jesus say this very hard thing?

I'll say again, Jesus said very many hard things.

What was His purpose?

I'll say again, He told us - His words were Spirit.

Why doesn’t He just stop with the manna comparison?

Why would you demand that He do so? Jesus often used multiple illustrations to teach, and if someone found His words to hard to bear, He let them walk away. (Example: The man whom Jesus told to sell all He had and give it to the poor. The man walked away sad. Jesus didn't stop him. By the way, why do Catholics not take THAT one literaly?)

I hope now you will stop pretending that non-Catholics don't answer your questions. I have - twice.

[Bobsvainbabblings]

Sorry for the late post. I will be answering Johngrace's post shortly as well. This is from my earlier post @70. Jesus explains how to handle a brother who will not forgive you. This should eliminate your fears about a brother no forgiving you.

Jesus explains this in Mathew 18 15-35. The first example involves one brother asking another brother to forgive him and how to handle it if that brother refuses. The only role the local church has in this is as a referee. They are not required to forgive anyone because they were not the one sinned against.

Matthew 18:15-34 (New King James Version)

 

Dealing with a Sinning Brother

   
¹⁵ “Moreover if your brother sins against you, go and tell him his fault between you and him alone. If he hears you, you have gained your brother. ¹⁶ But if he will not hear, take with you one or two more, that ‘by the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.’^{[a] 17} And if he refuses to hear them, tell it to the church. But if he refuses even to hear the church, let him be to you like a heathen and a tax collector.
¹⁸ “Assuredly, I say to you, whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven.
¹⁹ “Again I say^[b] to you that if two of you agree on earth concerning anything that they ask, it will be done for them by My Father in heaven. ²⁰ For where two or three are gathered together in My name, I am there in the midst of them.”

 

Matthew 18:15-34 (New King James Version)

 

Dealing with a Sinning Brother

   
¹⁵ “Moreover if your brother sins against you, go and tell him his fault between you and him alone. If he hears you, you have gained your brother. ¹⁶ But if he will not hear, take with you one or two more, that ‘by the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.’^{[a] 17} And if he refuses to hear them, tell it to the church. But if he refuses even to hear the church, let him be to you like a heathen and a tax collector.
¹⁸ “Assuredly, I say to you, whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven.
¹⁹ “Again I say^[b] to you that if two of you agree on earth concerning anything that they ask, it will be done for them by My Father in heaven. ²⁰ For where two or three are gathered together in My name, I am there in the midst of them.”

[Bobsvainbabblings]

Jvette, I am sorry I didn't see this post earlier. When you talk about how Protestants find truth going from who ever they like best may or may not be true. It is not true for me. I don't even like commentaries. If you have more than one interpretation of  verses you can be sure of one thing, only one, if any, is true. Most of the things people fight about have nothing to do with our salvation anyway.

You state you are free to read scripture but you admit you read scripture with a Catholic bias. You are allowing men you think were guided by the Spirit of God to influence how you view scripture. If you study the Church Fathers, they were no different, to some degree, then how you describe Protestants of today. They all had differences of what certain scriptures meant. Most of the differences that are now Church doctrine were settled with a majority vote of a council. All the people on the losing side had to agree with the winning side or they were called a heretic and excommunicated from the Church.

You say you left the Catholic Church for a while and looked at other churches. You could find none that you trusted so you returned to a Church you could trust, the Catholic Church. We are not supposed to trust an earthly church. We are supposed to trust the Church in the kingdom of heaven. That is why Jesus said, "Seek ye first the kingdom of heaven, and all else shall be added unto you".

Jesus gave Peter keys to the kingdom of heaven, not an earthly church.

BVB

 

 

[Bobsvainbabblings]

Johngrace Jvette, What Johngrace has posted here is a typical, copy and paste, series of scripture or scripture verses that mention forgiving sin, binding and loosing and confessing. They use commentary to claim these were only given to the apostles and their successors.

I don't have time to address everything Johngrace has posted and it would be a large undue use of band space on this site. I will address a few to show what I mean.

I would appreciate if Johngrace can show us one of the scripture references he has posted where Jesus specifically tells the apostles they can forgive a man's sin against God for God. 

Every time I see these scriptures in John posted, they always leave out John 20:19-20 where it states disciples, not apostles. That is the only way they can editorialize the way they do.

Johngrace's first example.

• I. Jesus Christ Granted the Apostles His Authority to Forgive Sins

  John 20:21 - before He grants them the authority to forgive sins, Jesus says to the apostles, “as the Father sent me, so I send you.” As Christ was sent by the Father to forgive sins, so Christ sends the apostles and their successors forgive sins.

  John 20:22 - the Lord “breathes” on the apostles, and then gives them the power to forgive and retain sins. The only other moment in Scripture where God breathes on man is in Gen. 2:7, when the Lord “breathes” divine life into man. When this happens, a significant transformation takes place.

  John 20:23 - Jesus says, “If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven. If you retain the sins of any, they are retained.” In order for the apostles to exercise this gift of forgiving sins, the penitents must orally confess their sins to them because the apostles are not mind readers. The text makes this very clear.

  What the commentary about 23 makes clear is the person they want to hear your confession does not have the mind of Christ. If he did, he would know your sins.

  You have to state orally, or put in writing, a sin you committed against me so I know to forgive you or vise verses.. It has nothing to do with forgiving a man's sin against God by a man. 

 

This is the first example he gave in context.

 

John 20 American King James Version

 16 Jesus said to her, Mary. She turned herself, and said to him, Rabboni; which is to say, Master.

17 Jesus said to her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brothers, and say to them, I ascend to my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.

18 Mary Magdalene came and told the disciples that she had seen the LORD, and that he had spoken these things to her.

19 Then the same day at evening, being the first day of the week, when the doors were shut where the disciples were assembled for fear of the Jews, came Jesus and stood in the middle, and said to them, Peace be to you.

20 And when he had so said, he showed to them his hands and his side. Then were the disciples glad, when they saw the LORD.

21 Then said Jesus to them again, Peace be to you: as my Father has sent me, even so send I you.

22 And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and said to them, Receive you the Holy Ghost:

23 Whose soever sins you remit, they are remitted to them; and whose soever sins you retain, they are retained.

24 But Thomas, one of the twelve, called Didymus, was not with them when Jesus came.

 25 The other disciples therefore said to him, We have seen the LORD. But he said to them, Except I shall see in his hands the print of the nails, and put my finger into the print of the nails, and thrust my hand into his side, I will not believe.

26 And after eight days again his disciples were within, and Thomas with them: then came Jesus, the doors being shut, and stood in the middle, and said, Peace be to you.

27 Then said he to Thomas, Reach here your finger, and behold my hands; and reach here your hand, and thrust it into my side: and be not faithless, but believing.

28 And Thomas answered and said to him, My LORD and my God.

29 Jesus said to him, Thomas, because you have seen me, you have believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.

30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:

31 But these are written, that you might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing you might have life through his name. 

 

<< Acts 1 >> American King James Version

---

1 The former treatise have I made, O Theophilus, of all that Jesus began both to do and teach, 2 Until the day in which he was taken up, after that he through the Holy Ghost had given commandments to the apostles whom he had chosen: 3 To whom also he showed himself alive after his passion by many infallible proofs, being seen of them forty days, and speaking of the things pertaining to the kingdom of God: 4 And, being assembled together with them, commanded them that they should not depart from Jerusalem, but wait for the promise of the Father, which, said he, you have heard of me. 5 For John truly baptized with water; but you shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.

6 When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, will you at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel? 7 And he said to them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father has put in his own power. 8 But you shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come on you: and you shall be witnesses to me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and to the uttermost part of the earth.

9 And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight. 10 And while they looked steadfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel; 11 Which also said, You men of Galilee, why stand you gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as you have seen him go into heaven.

12 Then returned they to Jerusalem from the mount called Olivet, which is from Jerusalem a sabbath day's journey. 13 And when they were come in, they went up into an upper room, where stayed both Peter, and James, and John, and Andrew, Philip, and Thomas, Bartholomew, and Matthew, James the son of Alphaeus, and Simon Zelotes, and Judas the brother of James. 14 These all continued with one accord in prayer and supplication, with the women, and Mary the mother of Jesus, and with his brothers.

15 And in those days Peter stood up in the middle of the disciples, and said, (the number of names together were about an hundred and twenty,)

 

 

When you put these scriptures in context, nowhere other than the Catholic version of the Bible, are they called apostles. They are called disciples or brethren in all other versions. The number 12 is only mentioned to define Thomas as one of the 12. Jesus doesn't blow the Holy Spirit on him or mention forgiving sins. 

I added the verses is Acts to reinforce the fact, the 12, were not the only ones at Pentecost when most believers think Christ's Church began.

Notice Jesus only blows the Holy Spirit in John, He doesn't Baptize the with the Spirit. That comes at Pentecost and there are 120 men and women disciples in the room. There is no scripture which says only the 12 were baptized by the Spirit. It is for all who believe.

 

From Johngraces post with the Catholic commentary.

John 20:22 - the Lord “breathes” on the apostles, and then gives them the power to forgive and retain sins. The only other moment in Scripture where God breathes on man is in Gen. 2:7, when the Lord “breathes” divine life into man. When this happens, a significant transformation takes place.

If blowing the Spirit on them in John was such a transformative act, how come there are no verses explaining the effects of that  transformation like when they were baptized by the Spirit?

God didn't breath on Adam, He breathed into Adams nostrils filling his lungs to give him life. That is the significant transformation that takes place with Adam. We all know how that turned out.

Confessing sins from Johngrace's post. All of these speak to men confessing their sins, one to another. None of them show a man forgiving sins against God for God.

Johngrace's first example,

James 5:16 - James clearly teaches us that we must “confess our sins to one another,” not just privately to God. James 5:16 must be read in the context of James 5:14-15, which is referring to the healing power (both physical and spiritual) of the priests of the Church. Hence, when James says “therefore” in verse 16, he must be referring to the men he was writing about in verses 14 and 15 – these men are the ordained priests of the Church, to whom we must confess our sins.

James 5:14-16 (New King James Version)

¹⁴ Is anyone among you sick? Let him call for the elders of the church, and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord. ¹⁵ And the prayer of faith will save the sick, and the Lord will raise him up. And if he has committed sins, he will be forgiven. ¹⁶ Confess your trespasses^[a] to one another, and pray for one another, that you may be healed. The effective, fervent prayer of a righteous man avails much.

Verse 14 says to call the elders of your local group of believers, the church, who met in homes of other believers to pray for you when you are sick.

Verse 16 is in context when it says confess your sins, one to another. We are to do that to show our brothers and sisters we are no better and have problems just like them. It is meant to encourage of your brother or sister in Christ. This is the real communion with saints, our earthly brothers and sisters. Not praying to people in heaven the Catholic Church declared.

It is the same in all the scriptures the Church provides. They add their commentary, as they did in these verses, to claim it means the apostles and there successors can forgive your sins against God for God. None of these show that.

The apostle were given nothing, we as believers, don't have. That is why Jesus told us how to pray, when asked, by giving us the Lords Prayer.

We are to pray to our Heavenly Father in Christ's name. In that prayer, we ask our Heavenly Father to forgive our sins against Him as we forgive sins a against us by our earthly brothers. He is the only one who can. He can only do forgive those sins with the blood sacrifice of His Son, Jesus

The Lords prayer should make it plain that we all, can and must, forgive sins. If we don't loose earthly sins when asked, our sins against God are bound in Heaven.

I did not address the writings and traditions of the Church Fathers because they are not something I have to view on par with scripture as part of my belief system as Catholics do..

If anything I have said here is wrong please show me. Thanks, BVB

Thanks, BVB

[johngrace]

Of course that’s in your humble opinion. Which we are all can have. We can all state scripture and see what our views interpret. I will go by the early Church Fathers who knew the Apostles and the belivers who knew them too. They were closer to the times and what was passed down then us. Of course I do not think a humble and contrite heart he cannot forgive on earth.The Good Lord chooses anyway he sees fit. Thank you kindly for sharing your view. May 2Peter 3:18 to you! Praise Jesus!

[Bobsvainbabblings]

Of course that’s in your humble opinion. Which we are all can have. We can all state scripture and see what our views interpret. I will go by the early Church Fathers who knew the Apostles and the believers who knew them too. They were closer to the times and what was passed down then us. Of course I do not think a humble and contrite heart he cannot forgive on earth.The Good Lord chooses anyway he sees fit. Thank you kindly for sharing your view. May 2Peter 3:18 to you! Praise Jesus! 

I decided to look at the writings of the people who where closer to the apostles and the people who knew them. It is an interesting read. I especially liked the one who claims God the Father gave him Christ's position of high priest. I am sure he got that from a apostles or one of their friends in A.D. 215.
 

Tradition / Church Fathers

I. The Early Church’s Practice of Oral Confession

Do not come to prayer with a guilty conscience.” Epistle of Barnabas, 19:12 (A.D. 74).

Saying a man should confess their sins. No mention of a priest. Must still be confessing to God.

“In church confess your sins, and do not come to your prayer with a guilt conscience. Such is the Way of Life...On the Lord’s own day, assemble in common to break bread and offer thanks; but first confess your sins, so that your sacrifice may be pure.” Didache, 4:14,14:1 (c. A.D. 90).

Still no confessing to a priest.

“Moreover, it is in accordance with reason that we should return to soberness[of conduct], and, while yet we have opportunity, exercise repentance towards God. It is well to reverence both God and the bishop.” Ignatius, Epistle to the Smyraeans, 9 (c. A.D. 110).

People are repenting to God but he says they should show reverence to God and a man, the Bishop.  

“Moreover, that this Marcus compounds philters and love-potions, in order to insult the persons of some of these women, if not of all, those of them who have returned to the Church of God—a thing which frequently occurs—have acknowledged, confessing, too, that they have been defiled by him, and that they were filled with a burning passion towards him. A sad example of this occurred in the case of a certain Asiatic, one of our deacons, who had received him (Marcus) into his house. His wife, a woman of remarkable beauty, fell a victim both in mind and body to this magician, and, for a long time, travelled about with him. At last, when, with no small difficulty, the brethren had converted her, she spent her whole time in the exercise of public confession, weeping over and lamenting the defilement which she had received from this magician.” Irenaeus, Against Heresies, 1:13 (A.D. 180).

Public confession. Not to a priest.

“Such are the words and deeds by which, in our own district of the Rhone, they have deluded many women, who have their consciences seared as with a hot iron. Some of them, indeed, make a public confession of their sins; but others of them are ashamed to do this, and in a tacit kind of way, despairing of [attaining to] the life of God, have, some of them, apostatized altogether; while others hesitate between the two courses, and incur that which is implied in the proverb, ‘neither without nor within;’ possessing this as the fruit from the seed of the children of knowledge.” Irenaeus, Against Heresies, 1:13 (A.D. 180).

Still a public confession.

“Father who knowest the hearts of all grant upon this Thy servant whom Thou hast chosen for the episcopate to feed Thy holy flock and serve as Thine high priest, that he may minister blamelessly by night and day, that he may unceasingly behold and appropriate Thy countenance and offer to Thee the gifts of Thy holy Church. And that by the high priestly Spirit he may have authority to forgive sins...” Hippolytus, Apostolic Tradition, 3 (A.D. 215).

He is stating the Father made him His high Priest and is praying to be blameless in that role and have the authority to forgive sins. I wonder what God told His Son? That only took 200 years.

“The Pontifex Maximus—that is, the bishop of bishops—issues an edict: ‘I remit, to such as have discharged (the requirements of) repentance, the sins both of adultery and of fornication.’” Tertullian, Modesty, 1 (A.D. 220).

I am not sure what he is saying.

“In addition to these there is also a seventh, albeit hard and laborious: the remission of sins through penance...when he does not shrink from declaring his sin to a priest of the Lord.” Origen, Homilies on Leviticus, 2:4 (A.D. 248).

Stating priest are remitting sins through penance.

“For although in smaller sins sinners may do penance for a set time, and according to the rules of discipline come to public confession, and by imposition of the hand of the bishop and clergy receive the right of communion: now with their time still unfulfilled, while persecution is still raging, while the peace of the Church itself is not vet restored, they are admitted to communion, and their name is presented; and while the penitence is not yet performed, confession is not yet made, the hands Of the bishop and clergy are not yet laid upon them, the eucharist is given to them; although it is written, ‘Whosoever shall eat the bread and drink the cup of the Lord unworthily, shall be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord.’” Cyprian, To the Clergy, 9 (16):2 (A.D. 250).

He is complaining that some are being allowed communion without doing penance.

“Moreover, how much are they both greater in faith and better in their fear, who, although bound by no crime of sacrifice to idols or of certificate, yet, since they have even thought of such things, with grief and simplicity confess this very thing to God’s priests, and make the conscientious avowal, put off from them the load of their minds, and seek out the salutary medicine even for slight and moderate wounds, knowing that it is written, ‘God is not mocked.’ God cannot be mocked, nor deceived, nor deluded by any deceptive cunning. Yea, he sins the more, who, thinking that God is like man, believes that he evades the penalty of his crime if he has not openly admitted his crime…I entreat you, beloved brethren, that each one should confess his own sin, while he who has sinned is still in this world, while his confession may be received, while the satisfaction and remission made by the priests are pleasing to the Lord?” Cyprian, To the Lapsed, 28-29 (A.D. 251).

He is asking them to confess their sins to a priest while they are still alive so they can be saved. Is this when last rites began?

“It is necessary to confess our sins to those whom the dispensation of God’s mysteries is entrusted.” Basil, Rule Briefly Treated, 288 (A.D. 374).

Confessing to a priest.

“These are capital sins, brethren, these are mortal.” Pacian of Barcelona, Penance, 4 (A.D. 385).

Distinguishing between sins. A.D. 385

“For if any one will consider how great a thing it is for one, being a man, and compassed with flesh and blood, to be enabled to draw nigh to that blessed and pure nature, he will then clearly see what great honor the grace of the Spirit has vouchsafed to priests; since by their agency these rites are celebrated, and others nowise inferior to these both in respect of our dignity and our salvation. For they who inhabit the earth and make their abode there are entrusted with the administration of things which are in Heaven, and have received an authority which God has not given to angels or archangels. For it has not been said to them, ‘Whatsoever ye shall bind on earth shall be bound in Heaven, and whatsoever ye shall loose on earth shall be loosed in Heaven.’ They who rule on earth have indeed authority to bind, but only the body: whereas this binding lays hold of the soul and penetrates the heavens; and what priests do here below God ratifies above, and the Master confirms the sentence of his servants. For indeed what is it but all manner of heavenly authority which He has given them when He says, ‘Whose sins ye remit they are remitted, and whose sins ye retain they are retained?’ What authority could be greater than this? ‘The Father hath committed all judgment to the Son?’ But I see it all put into the hands of these men by the Son.” John Chrysostom, The Priesthood, 3:5 (A.D. 387).

First time binding and loosing are mentioned. A.D. 387.

This is the problem with the Catholic Church. They claim they are following what Jesus taught the apostle when in fact they believe what the Church Fathers think Jesus taught the apostles. You would be better off if you followed the advise you gave me, 2 Peter 218

2 Peter 3:18 (New King James Version)

¹⁸ but grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.
To Him be the glory both now and forever. Amen.

These best way to grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord is to read about Him in the scriptures His Father gave us with these verses in mind.

"The Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all that I said to you." (John 14:26)

"When He, the Spirit of truth, comes, He will guide you into all the truth; for He will not speak on His own initiative, but whatever He hears, He will speak; and He will disclose to you what is to come." (John 16:13

 

But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send to you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceeds from the Father, he shall testify of me: (John 15:26)

None of these verses tell us to learn about Him from the writings of  the Church Fathers. It is God's spirit we are to trust. May God bless us with the truth, BVB

 

Of course that’s in your humble opinion. Which we are all can have. We can all state scripture and see what our views interpret. I will go by the early Church Fathers who knew the Apostles and the believers who knew them too. They were closer to the times and what was passed down then us. Of course I do not think a humble and contrite heart he cannot forgive on earth.The Good Lord chooses anyway he sees fit. Thank you kindly for sharing your view. May 2Peter 3:18 to you! Praise Jesus! 

I decided to look at the writings of the people who where closer to the apostles and the people who knew them. It is an interesting read. I especially liked the one who claims God the Father gave him Christ's position of high priest. I am sure he got that from a apostles or one of their friends in A.D. 215.
 

Tradition / Church Fathers

I. The Early Church’s Practice of Oral Confession

Do not come to prayer with a guilty conscience.” Epistle of Barnabas, 19:12 (A.D. 74).

Saying a man should confess their sins. No mention of a priest. Must still be confessing to God.

“In church confess your sins, and do not come to your prayer with a guilt conscience. Such is the Way of Life...On the Lord’s own day, assemble in common to break bread and offer thanks; but first confess your sins, so that your sacrifice may be pure.” Didache, 4:14,14:1 (c. A.D. 90).

Still no confessing to a priest.

“Moreover, it is in accordance with reason that we should return to soberness[of conduct], and, while yet we have opportunity, exercise repentance towards God. It is well to reverence both God and the bishop.” Ignatius, Epistle to the Smyraeans, 9 (c. A.D. 110).

People are repenting to God but he says they should show reverence to God and a man, the Bishop.  

“Moreover, that this Marcus compounds philters and love-potions, in order to insult the persons of some of these women, if not of all, those of them who have returned to the Church of God—a thing which frequently occurs—have acknowledged, confessing, too, that they have been defiled by him, and that they were filled with a burning passion towards him. A sad example of this occurred in the case of a certain Asiatic, one of our deacons, who had received him (Marcus) into his house. His wife, a woman of remarkable beauty, fell a victim both in mind and body to this magician, and, for a long time, travelled about with him. At last, when, with no small difficulty, the brethren had converted her, she spent her whole time in the exercise of public confession, weeping over and lamenting the defilement which she had received from this magician.” Irenaeus, Against Heresies, 1:13 (A.D. 180).

Public confession. Not to a priest.

“Such are the words and deeds by which, in our own district of the Rhone, they have deluded many women, who have their consciences seared as with a hot iron. Some of them, indeed, make a public confession of their sins; but others of them are ashamed to do this, and in a tacit kind of way, despairing of [attaining to] the life of God, have, some of them, apostatized altogether; while others hesitate between the two courses, and incur that which is implied in the proverb, ‘neither without nor within;’ possessing this as the fruit from the seed of the children of knowledge.” Irenaeus, Against Heresies, 1:13 (A.D. 180).

Still a public confession.

“Father who knowest the hearts of all grant upon this Thy servant whom Thou hast chosen for the episcopate to feed Thy holy flock and serve as Thine high priest, that he may minister blamelessly by night and day, that he may unceasingly behold and appropriate Thy countenance and offer to Thee the gifts of Thy holy Church. And that by the high priestly Spirit he may have authority to forgive sins...” Hippolytus, Apostolic Tradition, 3 (A.D. 215).

He is stating the Father made him His high Priest and is praying to be blameless in that role and have the authority to forgive sins. I wonder what God told His Son? That only took 200 years.

“The Pontifex Maximus—that is, the bishop of bishops—issues an edict: ‘I remit, to such as have discharged (the requirements of) repentance, the sins both of adultery and of fornication.’” Tertullian, Modesty, 1 (A.D. 220).

I am not sure what he is saying.

“In addition to these there is also a seventh, albeit hard and laborious: the remission of sins through penance...when he does not shrink from declaring his sin to a priest of the Lord.” Origen, Homilies on Leviticus, 2:4 (A.D. 248).

Stating priest are remitting sins through penance.

“For although in smaller sins sinners may do penance for a set time, and according to the rules of discipline come to public confession, and by imposition of the hand of the bishop and clergy receive the right of communion: now with their time still unfulfilled, while persecution is still raging, while the peace of the Church itself is not vet restored, they are admitted to communion, and their name is presented; and while the penitence is not yet performed, confession is not yet made, the hands Of the bishop and clergy are not yet laid upon them, the eucharist is given to them; although it is written, ‘Whosoever shall eat the bread and drink the cup of the Lord unworthily, shall be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord.’” Cyprian, To the Clergy, 9 (16):2 (A.D. 250).

He is complaining that some are being allowed communion without doing penance.

“Moreover, how much are they both greater in faith and better in their fear, who, although bound by no crime of sacrifice to idols or of certificate, yet, since they have even thought of such things, with grief and simplicity confess this very thing to God’s priests, and make the conscientious avowal, put off from them the load of their minds, and seek out the salutary medicine even for slight and moderate wounds, knowing that it is written, ‘God is not mocked.’ God cannot be mocked, nor deceived, nor deluded by any deceptive cunning. Yea, he sins the more, who, thinking that God is like man, believes that he evades the penalty of his crime if he has not openly admitted his crime…I entreat you, beloved brethren, that each one should confess his own sin, while he who has sinned is still in this world, while his confession may be received, while the satisfaction and remission made by the priests are pleasing to the Lord?” Cyprian, To the Lapsed, 28-29 (A.D. 251).

He is asking them to confess their sins to a priest while they are still alive so they can be saved. Is this when last rites began?

“It is necessary to confess our sins to those whom the dispensation of God’s mysteries is entrusted.” Basil, Rule Briefly Treated, 288 (A.D. 374).

Confessing to a priest.

“These are capital sins, brethren, these are mortal.” Pacian of Barcelona, Penance, 4 (A.D. 385).

Distinguishing between sins. A.D. 385

“For if any one will consider how great a thing it is for one, being a man, and compassed with flesh and blood, to be enabled to draw nigh to that blessed and pure nature, he will then clearly see what great honor the grace of the Spirit has vouchsafed to priests; since by their agency these rites are celebrated, and others nowise inferior to these both in respect of our dignity and our salvation. For they who inhabit the earth and make their abode there are entrusted with the administration of things which are in Heaven, and have received an authority which God has not given to angels or archangels. For it has not been said to them, ‘Whatsoever ye shall bind on earth shall be bound in Heaven, and whatsoever ye shall loose on earth shall be loosed in Heaven.’ They who rule on earth have indeed authority to bind, but only the body: whereas this binding lays hold of the soul and penetrates the heavens; and what priests do here below God ratifies above, and the Master confirms the sentence of his servants. For indeed what is it but all manner of heavenly authority which He has given them when He says, ‘Whose sins ye remit they are remitted, and whose sins ye retain they are retained?’ What authority could be greater than this? ‘The Father hath committed all judgment to the Son?’ But I see it all put into the hands of these men by the Son.” John Chrysostom, The Priesthood, 3:5 (A.D. 387).

Of course that’s in your humble opinion. Which we are all can have. We can all state scripture and see what our views interpret. I will go by the early Church Fathers who knew the Apostles and the believers who knew them too. They were closer to the times and what was passed down then us. Of course I do not think a humble and contrite heart he cannot forgive on earth.The Good Lord chooses anyway he sees fit. Thank you kindly for sharing your view. May 2Peter 3:18 to you! Praise Jesus! 

I decided to look at the writings of the people who where closer to the apostles and the people who knew them. It is an interesting read. I especially liked the one who claims God the Father gave him Christ's position of high priest. I am sure he got that from a apostles or one of their friends in A.D. 215.
 

[johngrace]

“They were closer to the times and what was passed down then us. “ How many years from the believers who knew? Closer than you are. It’s all in the semantics. May God Bless You!~ Praise Jesus!

[Jvette]

Saying that the words He spoke were Spirit is not an adequate answer to me.

He said they are Spirit and Life. Not symbols and life.
The flesh without the spirit is useless. Bread without the word is not enough for life. We receive the spirit when we are baptized and we receive Jesus, the Word, in the bread when the Holy Spirit comes upon it just as He came upon Mary and she conceived.

Of all the “hard things” Jesus said, that particular one is the only one that made some leave. The only one which some could not accept.

Why tell them they had to EAT HIS FLESH and DRINK HIS BLOOD?

[Jvette]

I think I answered your assertions regarding forgiving each other. I believe you are right in that regard and don’t dispute it.

But, Jesus did give to others His ability to forgive sins.

The Apostles were the first bishops, and it’s likely the disciples were similar to our current priests. Both positions holding the authorities that St. Peter were given, with Peter being primary.

In your last sentence, you say that Jesus gave Peter the keys to the heavenly kingdom. How is it that we are able to even enter that kingdom? By forgiveness.

Jesus came to forgive and to atone. He sent them as His father sent Him.

[Jvette]

I trust the church, because I trust Jesus.

It is a stretch to deny that there is no “church” regardless of how one wishes to interpret the word ekklesia.

There is a body of believers, one gathers with them to worship. It is clear that that is what the first Christians did.

There was obviously a need for teaching, correction and instruction on how one was to live within the body of Christ.

I said I read with a Catholic heart. You call that bias. I could then counter and say that when you read Scripture you do so with an anti-Catholic bias. You might claim that you have some special knowledge that I don’t have when you read that allows you to see the truth and hinders my ability to do likewise. I think that’s called Gnosticism.

What I can see from our conversation though is that we both love the Lord and though we have deep disagreements about how to live in that love, we can be honorable in those disagreements.

:)

[Bobsvainbabblings]

“They were closer to the times and what was passed down then us. “ How many years from the believers who knew? Closer than you are. It’s all in the semantics. May God Bless You!~ Praise Jesus! 

Everything I need to know about the Church Jesus is the head of, I can find in scripture. It is your Church that wants you to look elsewhere. In that vain, they have added 13 different people you posted here to justify confessing to a priest, a priest giving penance and/or binding and loosing.

None of the first 6-7 of these writings say anything about a men confessing sins to a priest instead of God. First time AD 220 or 248.

The 10th on these list states salvation comes through confessing to a priest instead of Christ alone. A.D. 251

It is the 13th, and last, on this list before evidence of a priest forgiving sins and binding and loosing. A.D. 387

I suggest you do what you stated you needed to do to find truth, go the ones closest to the time of the apostles. All of them make no mention of a man confessing his sins against God to an earthly priest. 

They must have believed Jesus when He told His apostles, and us, to pray to His Father to forgive their and/or our sins.

My God bless us with His truth, BVB

 

 
 

“They were closer to the times and what was passed down then us. “ How many years from the believers who knew? Closer than you are. It’s all in the semantics. May God Bless You!~ Praise Jesus! 

Everything I need to know about the Church Jesus is the head of, I can find in scripture. It is your Church that wants you to look elsewhere. In that vain, they have added 13 different people you posted here to justify confessing to a priest, a priest giving penance and/or binding and loosing.

None of the first 6-7 of these writings say anything about a men confessing sins to a priest instead of God. First time AD 220 or 248.

The 10th on these list states salvation comes through confessing to a priest instead of Christ alone. A.D. 251

It is the 13th, and last, on this list before evidence of a priest forgiving sins and binding and loosing. A.D. 387

I suggest you do what you stated you needed to do to find truth, go the ones closest to the time of the apostles. All of them make no mention of a man confessing his sins against God to an earthly priest. 

They must have believed Jesus when He told His apostles, and us, to pray to His Father to forgive their and/or our sins.

My God bless us with His truth, BVB

 

 
 

[Bobsvainbabblings]

I think I answered your assertions regarding forgiving each other. I believe you are right in that regard and don’t dispute it.

But, Jesus did give to others His ability to forgive sins.

He gave you and I a command to forgive our brothers and sisters their sins against us. He gave no one the ability to forgive sins against God for God.

The Apostles were the first bishops, and it’s likely the disciples were similar to our current priests. Both positions holding the authorities that St. Peter were given, with Peter being primary.

The apostles were the first bishops only if you believe Catholic teaching. A disciple is anyone who is a follower of another. You and I are followers of Christ. We are His disciples. 

In your last sentence, you say that Jesus gave Peter the keys to the heavenly kingdom. How is it that we are able to even enter that kingdom? By forgiveness.

The Old Testament Church had an earthly sanctuary where only the high priest could inter the Holy of Holies once a year and give a sacrifice for the people.

The new testament Church is spiritual. We are to be baptized by the Spirit of God. The High Priest, Jesus, is at the right hand of God for us continually in the Holy of Holies in Heaven. His Spirit will guide us.

There is no scriptural bases for an earthly physical church. Read Hebrews. God explains why an earthly priest had to sacrifice over and over. Christ's blood on the mercy seat in heaven is once for all.    

Jesus came to forgive and to atone. He sent them as His father sent Him

This is not just the apostles. It is you and I who have been sent.

May God bless us with His truth. BVB

I think I answered your assertions regarding forgiving each other. I believe you are right in that regard and don’t dispute it.

But, Jesus did give to others His ability to forgive sins.

He gave you and I a command to forgive our brothers and sisters their sins against us. He gave no one the ability to forgive sins against God for God.

The Apostles were the first bishops, and it’s likely the disciples were similar to our current priests. Both positions holding the authorities that St. Peter were given, with Peter being primary.

The apostles were the first bishops only if you believe Catholic teaching. A disciple is anyone who is a follower of another. You and I are followers of Christ. We are His disciples. 

In your last sentence, you say that Jesus gave Peter the keys to the heavenly kingdom. How is it that we are able to even enter that kingdom? By forgiveness.

The Old Testament Church had an earthly sanctuary where only the high priest could inter the Holy of Holies once a year and give a sacrifice for the people.

The new testament Church is spiritual. We are to be baptized by the Spirit of God. The High Priest, Jesus, is at the right hand of God for us continually in the Holy of Holies in Heaven. His Spirit will guide us.

There is no scriptural bases for an earthly physical church. Read Hebrews. God explains why an earthly priest had to sacrifice over and over. Christ's blood on the mercy seat in heaven is once for all.    

Jesus came to forgive and to atone. He sent them as His father sent Him

This is not just the apostles. It is you and I who have been sent.

May God bless us with His truth. BVB