[Bobsvainbabblings]

Johngrace Jvette, What Johngrace has posted here is a typical, copy and paste, series of scripture or scripture verses that mention forgiving sin, binding and loosing and confessing. They use commentary to claim these were only given to the apostles and their successors.

I don't have time to address everything Johngrace has posted and it would be a large undue use of band space on this site. I will address a few to show what I mean.

I would appreciate if Johngrace can show us one of the scripture references he has posted where Jesus specifically tells the apostles they can forgive a man's sin against God for God. 

Every time I see these scriptures in John posted, they always leave out John 20:19-20 where it states disciples, not apostles. That is the only way they can editorialize the way they do.

Johngrace's first example.

• I. Jesus Christ Granted the Apostles His Authority to Forgive Sins

  John 20:21 - before He grants them the authority to forgive sins, Jesus says to the apostles, “as the Father sent me, so I send you.” As Christ was sent by the Father to forgive sins, so Christ sends the apostles and their successors forgive sins.

  John 20:22 - the Lord “breathes” on the apostles, and then gives them the power to forgive and retain sins. The only other moment in Scripture where God breathes on man is in Gen. 2:7, when the Lord “breathes” divine life into man. When this happens, a significant transformation takes place.

  John 20:23 - Jesus says, “If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven. If you retain the sins of any, they are retained.” In order for the apostles to exercise this gift of forgiving sins, the penitents must orally confess their sins to them because the apostles are not mind readers. The text makes this very clear.

  What the commentary about 23 makes clear is the person they want to hear your confession does not have the mind of Christ. If he did, he would know your sins.

  You have to state orally, or put in writing, a sin you committed against me so I know to forgive you or vise verses.. It has nothing to do with forgiving a man's sin against God by a man. 

 

This is the first example he gave in context.

 

John 20 American King James Version

 16 Jesus said to her, Mary. She turned herself, and said to him, Rabboni; which is to say, Master.

17 Jesus said to her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brothers, and say to them, I ascend to my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.

18 Mary Magdalene came and told the disciples that she had seen the LORD, and that he had spoken these things to her.

19 Then the same day at evening, being the first day of the week, when the doors were shut where the disciples were assembled for fear of the Jews, came Jesus and stood in the middle, and said to them, Peace be to you.

20 And when he had so said, he showed to them his hands and his side. Then were the disciples glad, when they saw the LORD.

21 Then said Jesus to them again, Peace be to you: as my Father has sent me, even so send I you.

22 And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and said to them, Receive you the Holy Ghost:

23 Whose soever sins you remit, they are remitted to them; and whose soever sins you retain, they are retained.

24 But Thomas, one of the twelve, called Didymus, was not with them when Jesus came.

 25 The other disciples therefore said to him, We have seen the LORD. But he said to them, Except I shall see in his hands the print of the nails, and put my finger into the print of the nails, and thrust my hand into his side, I will not believe.

26 And after eight days again his disciples were within, and Thomas with them: then came Jesus, the doors being shut, and stood in the middle, and said, Peace be to you.

27 Then said he to Thomas, Reach here your finger, and behold my hands; and reach here your hand, and thrust it into my side: and be not faithless, but believing.

28 And Thomas answered and said to him, My LORD and my God.

29 Jesus said to him, Thomas, because you have seen me, you have believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.

30 And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:

31 But these are written, that you might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing you might have life through his name. 

 

<< Acts 1 >> American King James Version

---

1 The former treatise have I made, O Theophilus, of all that Jesus began both to do and teach, 2 Until the day in which he was taken up, after that he through the Holy Ghost had given commandments to the apostles whom he had chosen: 3 To whom also he showed himself alive after his passion by many infallible proofs, being seen of them forty days, and speaking of the things pertaining to the kingdom of God: 4 And, being assembled together with them, commanded them that they should not depart from Jerusalem, but wait for the promise of the Father, which, said he, you have heard of me. 5 For John truly baptized with water; but you shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.

6 When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, will you at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel? 7 And he said to them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father has put in his own power. 8 But you shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come on you: and you shall be witnesses to me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and to the uttermost part of the earth.

9 And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight. 10 And while they looked steadfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel; 11 Which also said, You men of Galilee, why stand you gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as you have seen him go into heaven.

12 Then returned they to Jerusalem from the mount called Olivet, which is from Jerusalem a sabbath day's journey. 13 And when they were come in, they went up into an upper room, where stayed both Peter, and James, and John, and Andrew, Philip, and Thomas, Bartholomew, and Matthew, James the son of Alphaeus, and Simon Zelotes, and Judas the brother of James. 14 These all continued with one accord in prayer and supplication, with the women, and Mary the mother of Jesus, and with his brothers.

15 And in those days Peter stood up in the middle of the disciples, and said, (the number of names together were about an hundred and twenty,)

 

 

When you put these scriptures in context, nowhere other than the Catholic version of the Bible, are they called apostles. They are called disciples or brethren in all other versions. The number 12 is only mentioned to define Thomas as one of the 12. Jesus doesn't blow the Holy Spirit on him or mention forgiving sins. 

I added the verses is Acts to reinforce the fact, the 12, were not the only ones at Pentecost when most believers think Christ's Church began.

Notice Jesus only blows the Holy Spirit in John, He doesn't Baptize the with the Spirit. That comes at Pentecost and there are 120 men and women disciples in the room. There is no scripture which says only the 12 were baptized by the Spirit. It is for all who believe.

 

From Johngraces post with the Catholic commentary.

John 20:22 - the Lord “breathes” on the apostles, and then gives them the power to forgive and retain sins. The only other moment in Scripture where God breathes on man is in Gen. 2:7, when the Lord “breathes” divine life into man. When this happens, a significant transformation takes place.

If blowing the Spirit on them in John was such a transformative act, how come there are no verses explaining the effects of that  transformation like when they were baptized by the Spirit?

God didn't breath on Adam, He breathed into Adams nostrils filling his lungs to give him life. That is the significant transformation that takes place with Adam. We all know how that turned out.

Confessing sins from Johngrace's post. All of these speak to men confessing their sins, one to another. None of them show a man forgiving sins against God for God.

Johngrace's first example,

James 5:16 - James clearly teaches us that we must “confess our sins to one another,” not just privately to God. James 5:16 must be read in the context of James 5:14-15, which is referring to the healing power (both physical and spiritual) of the priests of the Church. Hence, when James says “therefore” in verse 16, he must be referring to the men he was writing about in verses 14 and 15 – these men are the ordained priests of the Church, to whom we must confess our sins.

James 5:14-16 (New King James Version)

¹⁴ Is anyone among you sick? Let him call for the elders of the church, and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord. ¹⁵ And the prayer of faith will save the sick, and the Lord will raise him up. And if he has committed sins, he will be forgiven. ¹⁶ Confess your trespasses^[a] to one another, and pray for one another, that you may be healed. The effective, fervent prayer of a righteous man avails much.

Verse 14 says to call the elders of your local group of believers, the church, who met in homes of other believers to pray for you when you are sick.

Verse 16 is in context when it says confess your sins, one to another. We are to do that to show our brothers and sisters we are no better and have problems just like them. It is meant to encourage of your brother or sister in Christ. This is the real communion with saints, our earthly brothers and sisters. Not praying to people in heaven the Catholic Church declared.

It is the same in all the scriptures the Church provides. They add their commentary, as they did in these verses, to claim it means the apostles and there successors can forgive your sins against God for God. None of these show that.

The apostle were given nothing, we as believers, don't have. That is why Jesus told us how to pray, when asked, by giving us the Lords Prayer.

We are to pray to our Heavenly Father in Christ's name. In that prayer, we ask our Heavenly Father to forgive our sins against Him as we forgive sins a against us by our earthly brothers. He is the only one who can. He can only do forgive those sins with the blood sacrifice of His Son, Jesus

The Lords prayer should make it plain that we all, can and must, forgive sins. If we don't loose earthly sins when asked, our sins against God are bound in Heaven.

I did not address the writings and traditions of the Church Fathers because they are not something I have to view on par with scripture as part of my belief system as Catholics do..

If anything I have said here is wrong please show me. Thanks, BVB

Thanks, BVB

[johngrace]

Of course that’s in your humble opinion. Which we are all can have. We can all state scripture and see what our views interpret. I will go by the early Church Fathers who knew the Apostles and the belivers who knew them too. They were closer to the times and what was passed down then us. Of course I do not think a humble and contrite heart he cannot forgive on earth.The Good Lord chooses anyway he sees fit. Thank you kindly for sharing your view. May 2Peter 3:18 to you! Praise Jesus!