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To: Bobsvainbabblings

Of course that’s in your humble opinion. Which we are all can have. We can all state scripture and see what our views interpret. I will go by the early Church Fathers who knew the Apostles and the belivers who knew them too. They were closer to the times and what was passed down then us. Of course I do not think a humble and contrite heart he cannot forgive on earth.The Good Lord chooses anyway he sees fit. Thank you kindly for sharing your view. May 2Peter 3:18 to you! Praise Jesus!


93 posted on 02/02/2011 4:34:40 PM PST by johngrace (God so loved the world so he gave his only son! Praise Jesus and Hail Mary!)
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To: johngrace
Of course that’s in your humble opinion. Which we are all can have. We can all state scripture and see what our views interpret. I will go by the early Church Fathers who knew the Apostles and the believers who knew them too. They were closer to the times and what was passed down then us. Of course I do not think a humble and contrite heart he cannot forgive on earth.The Good Lord chooses anyway he sees fit. Thank you kindly for sharing your view. May 2Peter 3:18 to you! Praise Jesus! 

I decided to look at the writings of the people who where closer to the apostles and the people who knew them. It is an interesting read. I especially liked the one who claims God the Father gave him Christ's position of high priest. I am sure he got that from a apostles or one of their friends in A.D. 215.
 

Tradition / Church Fathers

I. The Early Church’s Practice of Oral Confession

Do not come to prayer with a guilty conscience.” Epistle of Barnabas, 19:12 (A.D. 74).

Saying a man should confess their sins. No mention of a priest. Must still be confessing to God.

“In church confess your sins, and do not come to your prayer with a guilt conscience. Such is the Way of Life...On the Lord’s own day, assemble in common to break bread and offer thanks; but first confess your sins, so that your sacrifice may be pure.” Didache, 4:14,14:1 (c. A.D. 90).

Still no confessing to a priest.

“Moreover, it is in accordance with reason that we should return to soberness[of conduct], and, while yet we have opportunity, exercise repentance towards God. It is well to reverence both God and the bishop.” Ignatius, Epistle to the Smyraeans, 9 (c. A.D. 110).

People are repenting to God but he says they should show reverence to God and a man, the Bishop.  

“Moreover, that this Marcus compounds philters and love-potions, in order to insult the persons of some of these women, if not of all, those of them who have returned to the Church of God—a thing which frequently occurs—have acknowledged, confessing, too, that they have been defiled by him, and that they were filled with a burning passion towards him. A sad example of this occurred in the case of a certain Asiatic, one of our deacons, who had received him (Marcus) into his house. His wife, a woman of remarkable beauty, fell a victim both in mind and body to this magician, and, for a long time, travelled about with him. At last, when, with no small difficulty, the brethren had converted her, she spent her whole time in the exercise of public confession, weeping over and lamenting the defilement which she had received from this magician.” Irenaeus, Against Heresies, 1:13 (A.D. 180).

Public confession. Not to a priest.

“Such are the words and deeds by which, in our own district of the Rhone, they have deluded many women, who have their consciences seared as with a hot iron. Some of them, indeed, make a public confession of their sins; but others of them are ashamed to do this, and in a tacit kind of way, despairing of [attaining to] the life of God, have, some of them, apostatized altogether; while others hesitate between the two courses, and incur that which is implied in the proverb, ‘neither without nor within;’ possessing this as the fruit from the seed of the children of knowledge.” Irenaeus, Against Heresies, 1:13 (A.D. 180).

Still a public confession.

“Father who knowest the hearts of all grant upon this Thy servant whom Thou hast chosen for the episcopate to feed Thy holy flock and serve as Thine high priest, that he may minister blamelessly by night and day, that he may unceasingly behold and appropriate Thy countenance and offer to Thee the gifts of Thy holy Church. And that by the high priestly Spirit he may have authority to forgive sins...” Hippolytus, Apostolic Tradition, 3 (A.D. 215).

He is stating the Father made him His high Priest and is praying to be blameless in that role and have the authority to forgive sins. I wonder what God told His Son? That only took 200 years.

“The Pontifex Maximus—that is, the bishop of bishops—issues an edict: ‘I remit, to such as have discharged (the requirements of) repentance, the sins both of adultery and of fornication.’” Tertullian, Modesty, 1 (A.D. 220).

I am not sure what he is saying.

“In addition to these there is also a seventh, albeit hard and laborious: the remission of sins through penance...when he does not shrink from declaring his sin to a priest of the Lord.” Origen, Homilies on Leviticus, 2:4 (A.D. 248).

Stating priest are remitting sins through penance.

“For although in smaller sins sinners may do penance for a set time, and according to the rules of discipline come to public confession, and by imposition of the hand of the bishop and clergy receive the right of communion: now with their time still unfulfilled, while persecution is still raging, while the peace of the Church itself is not vet restored, they are admitted to communion, and their name is presented; and while the penitence is not yet performed, confession is not yet made, the hands Of the bishop and clergy are not yet laid upon them, the eucharist is given to them; although it is written, ‘Whosoever shall eat the bread and drink the cup of the Lord unworthily, shall be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord.’” Cyprian, To the Clergy, 9 (16):2 (A.D. 250).

He is complaining that some are being allowed communion without doing penance.

“Moreover, how much are they both greater in faith and better in their fear, who, although bound by no crime of sacrifice to idols or of certificate, yet, since they have even thought of such things, with grief and simplicity confess this very thing to God’s priests, and make the conscientious avowal, put off from them the load of their minds, and seek out the salutary medicine even for slight and moderate wounds, knowing that it is written, ‘God is not mocked.’ God cannot be mocked, nor deceived, nor deluded by any deceptive cunning. Yea, he sins the more, who, thinking that God is like man, believes that he evades the penalty of his crime if he has not openly admitted his crime…I entreat you, beloved brethren, that each one should confess his own sin, while he who has sinned is still in this world, while his confession may be received, while the satisfaction and remission made by the priests are pleasing to the Lord?” Cyprian, To the Lapsed, 28-29 (A.D. 251).

He is asking them to confess their sins to a priest while they are still alive so they can be saved. Is this when last rites began?

“It is necessary to confess our sins to those whom the dispensation of God’s mysteries is entrusted.” Basil, Rule Briefly Treated, 288 (A.D. 374).

Confessing to a priest.

“These are capital sins, brethren, these are mortal.” Pacian of Barcelona, Penance, 4 (A.D. 385).

Distinguishing between sins. A.D. 385

“For if any one will consider how great a thing it is for one, being a man, and compassed with flesh and blood, to be enabled to draw nigh to that blessed and pure nature, he will then clearly see what great honor the grace of the Spirit has vouchsafed to priests; since by their agency these rites are celebrated, and others nowise inferior to these both in respect of our dignity and our salvation. For they who inhabit the earth and make their abode there are entrusted with the administration of things which are in Heaven, and have received an authority which God has not given to angels or archangels. For it has not been said to them, ‘Whatsoever ye shall bind on earth shall be bound in Heaven, and whatsoever ye shall loose on earth shall be loosed in Heaven.’ They who rule on earth have indeed authority to bind, but only the body: whereas this binding lays hold of the soul and penetrates the heavens; and what priests do here below God ratifies above, and the Master confirms the sentence of his servants. For indeed what is it but all manner of heavenly authority which He has given them when He says, ‘Whose sins ye remit they are remitted, and whose sins ye retain they are retained?’ What authority could be greater than this? ‘The Father hath committed all judgment to the Son?’ But I see it all put into the hands of these men by the Son.” John Chrysostom, The Priesthood, 3:5 (A.D. 387).

First time binding and loosing are mentioned. A.D. 387.

This is the problem with the Catholic Church. They claim they are following what Jesus taught the apostle when in fact they believe what the Church Fathers think Jesus taught the apostles. You would be better off if you followed the advise you gave me, 2 Peter 218

2 Peter 3:18 (New King James Version)

18 but grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.
To Him be the glory both now and forever. Amen.

These best way to grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord is to read about Him in the scriptures His Father gave us with these verses in mind.

"The Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all that I said to you." (John 14:26)
"When He, the Spirit of truth, comes, He will guide you into all the truth; for He will not speak on His own initiative, but whatever He hears, He will speak; and He will disclose to you what is to come." (John 16:13
 
But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send to you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceeds from the Father, he shall testify of me: (John 15:26)

None of these verses tell us to learn about Him from the writings of  the Church Fathers. It is God's spirit we are to trust. May God bless us with the truth, BVB

 


94 posted on 02/02/2011 10:27:09 PM PST by Bobsvainbabblings
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