The Real Presence [Church Fathers on the Holy Eucharist, cont'd ]

The Church Fathers ^ | 100AD-431AD

[Jvette]

The Church holds that simple truth as the basis for everything she believes.

That we are sinners, that sin separated us from life with God and that Jesus died for those sins and because He did, we can share in heaven with Him.

Nothing the Church teaches takes away from that truth.

.

[Jvette]

No, that is not what I am saying.

I am saying that Christ said to have eternal life, one must eat of His flesh and drink of His blood.

Christ’s sacrifice on the cross in atonement for our sins opened the gates of heaven after they had been closed by Adam and Eve’s sin. The sin which separated all those who came after them from eternal life with God.

Let’s be clear here.

I DID NOT SAY THESE WORDS.

JESUS SAID THEM!

WHY?

He knew how those words would be taken. And not by some future Church magisterium, but by the very people He spoke them to. They walked away, He didn’t stop them and He does not retract what He said.

And He does not mitigate it. He does tell them that the flesh is useless, but what flesh is useless? His? I don’t think so, otherwise, why did He have to suffer and die?

No, the flesh is useless without the spirit of God. That is why the Church defined the doctrine that Jesus is truly God and truly man.

It all connects and one cannot simply take a grab bag approach to Scripture. It doesn’t work. Each bit stands together to make the whole.

Jesus did indeed die for our sins, and it is only because of that that we have even shred of hope to spend eternity in heaven.

But, His death is not a get out of jail free card. It opens the door but we must walk through it.

The Eucharist is an article of faith. We believe and partake because Jesus has said we must if we want life.

[Dr. Eckleburg]

The Romish doctrine of transubstantiation (local presence under each species, worship of the host, etc) is nowhere to be found in these comments.

Exactly. Romanists read the church fathers and project their own prejudices into the material.

Many church fathers, Calvin included, spoke of the "real presence" of Christ, meaning Christ is "really present" spiritually.

Physically, Christ, "the lamb slain from the foundation of the world," is in heaven sitting next to the Father having completed His task of justifying His sheep.

[Jvette]

Allow me to elaborate even further.

In the story of Exodus, God’s people are told to slaughter a perfect lamb, the blood is then to be smeared over the door frame and then they must eat the lamb that was slaughtered.

So, here we see that it was both the blood of the lamb and the eating of the lamb that saved them.

After they were free, they wandered in the desert for 40 years. During that time, some fell back into the worship of false gods. Some never made it to the promised land. And during that time, they were hungry and called upon Moses for sustenance. So, Moses pleaded for the people to God and God gave them manna(bread).

So, we see here our own lives. This life is our wandering in the desert. We have been freed from the bondage of sin, but we still need sustenance to give us strength until we reach the promised land.

Jesus is the Lamb who died for our freedom and the Manna which came down from heaven to sustain us as we await His coming.

[Bobsvainbabblings]

God says that sins against Him have a penalty of spiritual death. Separation from Him for eternity.

The only way we can rid ourselves of that penalty is excepting the only way He provided for us, His Son’s blood that has wiped away those sins after we confess those sins to Him.

Part of that involves us forgiving other humans their sins against us. Jesus explains that in MATT 18:15-35

Your Church teaches you have to confess your sin or sins against God to a man and then allow that man to determine a punishment for that sin depending how serious of a sin that man thinks it is.

The penalty can be anything from 10 Hail Mary and 5 Our Fathers to expelling you from the Catholic Church.

You have to continually do this until the day you die.

How can you say this teaching does not take away from the truth?

[Bobsvainbabblings]

I agree with all your posts about God’s omnipotence. It has nothing to do with what I have said.

Just as God gives rules for our lives, He has given rules to Himself He cannot violate. Our freewill is one of those rules.

Our lives are like a journey down a path. All along the path there are Ys. At the end of one of those paths at each Y is His Son. It is our free will to choose which path we take . If we choose the wrong path, he will put another Y in the path always giving us a choice of a path to His Son.

He cannot put His Son at the end of each path at a Y, it would no longer be our choice and He would violate our free will.

This is not a poor pathetic God. It is a righteous God, fair to all, supplying a path to His Son as long as we are alive. BVB

[Jvette]

I don’t have much time tonight so I will have to make this brief. LOL, I am sure that is a welcome relief after the posts I made earlier.

Regarding confession. I could never understand the Protestant’s objection when Jesus quite clearly tells them,
“Whose sins you forgive are forgiven, and whose sins you retain, they are retained.”

Jesus also says, “As the Father sent me, so I send you.”

Jesus came to give us forgiveness, yet we obviously continue to sin. And exactly how were the Apostles supposed to forgive or retain if they do not hear what our sins are?

Now, I know that Protestants believe in confession their sins privately, but that contradicts Jesus’ own words.

The Sacrament of Confession(Reconciliation)is not always perfectly practiced, but I am confident the basis for it is
clearly found in Scripture.

I’m sorry I don’t have the exact verse right off the top of my head, but St. Paul calls himself and the others ministers of reconciliation, reconciling others to God.

[paulist]

“Just as God gives rules for our lives, He has given rules to Himself He cannot violate. Our freewill is one of those rules.”

No disrespect intended, but I’m really not interested in your opinion of God. Do you have a Scripture reference for this assertion?

“Our lives are like a journey down a path. All along the path there are Ys. At the end of one of those paths at each Y is His Son. It is our free will to choose which path we take . If we choose the wrong path, he will put another Y in the path always giving us a choice of a path to His Son.”

“This is not a poor pathetic God. It is a righteous God, fair to all, supplying a path to His Son as long as we are alive.”

So now your the judge of what is fair?

This sound enlightened, to the human ear, but it’s really empty words, unless God said it somewhere in Scripture.

[Bobsvainbabblings]

There are some things that don’t have to be written in Scripture for a person to understand about right and wrong. This is one of those things.

Everything in our lives has a governing authority that makes rules. Our family, job, city, state, federal governments etc. Most have a punishment when we violate the rules. Some rules provide for rewards.

Everybody has to abide by the rules including the entity who makes the rules for it to be fair.

God is no different. He has made rules for our lives and has determined punishment and rewards depending on how well we follow those rules.

One of those rules allows us to have free will to make decisions, good or bad, in our lives. If He violates any rules He has made, including our free will, He is a liar and can’t be trusted about anything He says.

How could anyone believe His promise to forgive our sins and raise us from the dead if they thought He broke any of His rules.? BVB

[Bobsvainbabblings]

Thank you again for a thoughtful conversation. I hope this will show you why I have a hard time with this teaching.

It is a false teaching to claim Peter and/or the apostles were given something none of us were given. Forgiving sins and binding and loosing apply to all believers.

 

Lets look at the Lords Prayer and the verses I asked you to read in Matthew. It is the only time in scripture where Jesus teaches about man forgiving sins and how it pertains to binding and loosing.

 

Father forgive our sins as we forgive the sins committed against us.

If we do not forgive/loose the sins committed against us by a brother on earth when they ask, that sin is bound on earth as well as in heaven and God cannot forgive/loose our sins against Him.

Jesus explains this in Mathew 18 15-35. The first example involves one brother asking another brother to forgive him and how to handle it if that brother refuses. The only role the local church has in this is as a referee. They are not required to forgive anyone because they were not the one sinned against.

They second example is when Peter asks Jesus how many times he/Peter has to forgive a brother who sins against him/Peter. Jesus tells Peter seven times seventy and goes on to explain the concept of binding and loosing. You and I have to forgive our earthly brothers before we can be forgiven by our heavenly Father.

What you won't find here or anywhere else is where Jesus tells Peter or any other man he can forgive sins committed against God for God as the Catholic Church practices.

Only you and I can, and must, forgive sins committed against us by a brother.  Only God can forgive our sins committed against Him. BVB

 

Matthew 18:15-34 (New King James Version)

 

Dealing with a Sinning Brother

   
¹⁵ “Moreover if your brother sins against you, go and tell him his fault between you and him alone. If he hears you, you have gained your brother. ¹⁶ But if he will not hear, take with you one or two more, that ‘by the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.’^{[a] 17} And if he refuses to hear them, tell it to the church. But if he refuses even to hear the church, let him be to you like a heathen and a tax collector.
¹⁸ “Assuredly, I say to you, whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven.
¹⁹ “Again I say^[b] to you that if two of you agree on earth concerning anything that they ask, it will be done for them by My Father in heaven. ²⁰ For where two or three are gathered together in My name, I am there in the midst of them.”

The Parable of the Unforgiving Servant

   
²¹ Then Peter came to Him and said, “Lord, how often shall my brother sin against me, and I forgive him? Up to seven times?”
²² Jesus said to him, “I do not say to you, up to seven times, but up to seventy times seven. ²³ Therefore the kingdom of heaven is like a certain king who wanted to settle accounts with his servants. ²⁴ And when he had begun to settle accounts, one was brought to him who owed him ten thousand talents. ²⁵ But as he was not able to pay, his master commanded that he be sold, with his wife and children and all that he had, and that payment be made. ²⁶ The servant therefore fell down before him, saying, ‘Master, have patience with me, and I will pay you all.’ ²⁷ Then the master of that servant was moved with compassion, released him, and forgave him the debt.
²⁸ “But that servant went out and found one of his fellow servants who owed him a hundred denarii; and he laid hands on him and took him by the throat, saying, ‘Pay me what you owe!’ ²⁹ So his fellow servant fell down at his feet^[c] and begged him, saying, ‘Have patience with me, and I will pay you all.’^{[d] 30} And he would not, but went and threw him into prison till he should pay the debt. ³¹ So when his fellow servants saw what had been done, they were very grieved, and came and told their master all that had been done. ³² Then his master, after he had called him, said to him, ‘You wicked servant! I forgave you all that debt because you begged me. ³³ Should you not also have had compassion on your fellow servant, just as I had pity on you?’ ³⁴ And his master was angry, and delivered him to the torturers until he should pay all that was due to him.

[paulist]

Bobsvainbabblings - “There are some things that don’t have to be written in Scripture for a person to understand about right and wrong.”

Romans 3:10-18 - “None is righteous, no, not one; no one understands;
no one seeks for God. All have turned aside; together they have become worthless; no one does good, not even one. Their throat is an open grave; they use their tongues to deceive. The venom of asps is under their lips. Their mouth is full of curses and bitterness. Their feet are swift to shed blood; in their paths are ruin and misery, and the way of peace they have not known. There is no fear of God before their eyes.”

1 Corinthians 1:21 - “For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not know him.....”

1 Corinthians 2:11 - “For who among men knows the thoughts of a man except the man’s spirit within him? In the same way no one knows the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God.”

Jeremiah 17:9 - “The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately sick; who can understand it?”

Isaiah 40:13 - “Who has understood the mind of the LORD, or instructed him as his counselor?”

Men an incapable of understand the things of God, apart from the Holy Spirit. Whenever man attempts to think of God and his ways, apart from the Holy Spirit, he always fashions a god in his mind that resembles himself; his desires, his likes and dislikes, etc......

Psalm 50:21 - “These things you have done, and I have been silent; you thought that I was one like yourself. But now I rebuke you and lay the charge before you.”

Bobsvainbabblings - “Everybody has to abide by the rules including the entity who makes the rules for it to be fair.”

Here you go again. You are not the arbiter of fair, and all authority in heaven and earth comes FROM God. He is not bound by anything or anyone. God is not under rules; God is the rule.

Was it “fair” that Jesus suffered and died for people who were utterly sinful, although He Himself never committed a single sin?

Was it “fair” that Jesus chose 12 men to follow Him closely on earth and left everyone else out?

Was it “fair” that Jesus chose 3 men to be in His inner circle and left the other 9 out?

Was it “fair” that jesus explained the parables to His disciples, without explaining them to the crowds?

God is way too big for our little minds. Rather than trying to reason your way to him, you need to humble yourself before His Word, and let Him tell you what He’s like. Let Him tell you about fairness. You should never rely on your own sense of right and wrong, and you should never, never, never rely on your own thought of God, for that is the essence of idolatry.

[johngrace]

SACRAMENT OF CONFESSION & FORGIVENESS OF SINS

Scripture

Jesus Christ Granted the Apostles His Authority to Forgive Sins
The Necessity and Practice of Orally Confessing Sins
Tradition / Church Fathers

The Early Church’s Practice of Oral Confession
Back · Home · Next

Scripture

I. Jesus Christ Granted the Apostles His Authority to Forgive Sins

John 20:21 - before He grants them the authority to forgive sins, Jesus says to the apostles, “as the Father sent me, so I send you.” As Christ was sent by the Father to forgive sins, so Christ sends the apostles and their successors forgive sins.

John 20:22 - the Lord “breathes” on the apostles, and then gives them the power to forgive and retain sins. The only other moment in Scripture where God breathes on man is in Gen. 2:7, when the Lord “breathes” divine life into man. When this happens, a significant transformation takes place.

John 20:23 - Jesus says, “If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven. If you retain the sins of any, they are retained.” In order for the apostles to exercise this gift of forgiving sins, the penitents must orally confess their sins to them because the apostles are not mind readers. The text makes this very clear.

Matt. 9:8 - this verse shows that God has given the authority to forgive sins to “men.” Hence, those Protestants who acknowledge that the apostles had the authority to forgive sins (which this verse demonstrates) must prove that this gift ended with the apostles. Otherwise, the apostles’ successors still possess this gift. Where in Scripture is the gift of authority to forgive sins taken away from the apostles or their successors?

Matt. 9:6; Mark 2:10 - Christ forgave sins as a man (not God) to convince us that the “Son of man” has authority to forgive sins on earth.

Luke 5:24 - Luke also points out that Jesus’ authority to forgive sins is as a man, not God. The Gospel writers record this to convince us that God has given this authority to men. This authority has been transferred from Christ to the apostles and their successors.

Matt. 18:18 - the apostles are given authority to bind and loose. The authority to bind and loose includes administering and removing the temporal penalties due to sin. The Jews understood this since the birth of the Church.

John 20:22-23; Matt. 18:18 - the power to remit/retain sin is also the power to remit/retain punishment due to sin. If Christ’s ministers can forgive the eternal penalty of sin, they can certainly remit the temporal penalty of sin (which is called an “indulgence”).

2 Cor. 2:10 - Paul forgives in the presence of Christ (some translations refer to the presences of Christ as “in persona Christi”). Some say that this may also be a reference to sins.

2 Cor. 5:18 - the ministry of reconciliation was given to the ambassadors of the Church. This ministry of reconciliation refers to the sacrament of reconciliation, also called the sacrament of confession or penance.

James 5:15-16 - in verse 15 we see that sins are forgiven by the priests in the sacrament of the sick. This is another example of man’s authority to forgive sins on earth. Then in verse 16, James says “Therefore, confess our sins to one another,” in reference to the men referred to in verse 15, the priests of the Church.

1 Tim. 2:5 - Christ is the only mediator, but He was free to decide how His mediation would be applied to us. The Lord chose to use priests of God to carry out His work of forgiveness.

Lev. 5:4-6; 19:21-22 - even under the Old Covenant, God used priests to forgive and atone for the sins of others.

Top

II. The Necessity and Practice of Orally Confessing Sins

James 5:16 - James clearly teaches us that we must “confess our sins to one another,” not just privately to God. James 5:16 must be read in the context of James 5:14-15, which is referring to the healing power (both physical and spiritual) of the priests of the Church. Hence, when James says “therefore” in verse 16, he must be referring to the men he was writing about in verses 14 and 15 – these men are the ordained priests of the Church, to whom we must confess our sins.

Acts 19:18 - many came to orally confess sins and divulge their sinful practices. Oral confession was the practice of the early Church just as it is today.

Matt. 3:6; Mark 1:5 - again, this shows people confessing their sins before others as an historical practice (here to John the Baptist).

1 Tim. 6:12 - this verse also refers to the historical practice of confessing both faith and sins in the presence of many witnesses.

1 John 1:9 - if we confess are sins, God is faithful to us and forgives us and cleanse us. But we must confess our sins to one another.

Num. 5:7 - this shows the historical practice of publicly confessing sins, and making public restitution.

2 Sam. 12:14 - even though the sin is forgiven, there is punishment due for the forgiven sin. David is forgiven but his child was still taken (the consequence of his sin).

Neh. 9:2-3 - the Israelites stood before the assembly and confessed sins publicly and interceded for each other.

Sir. 4:26 - God tells us not to be ashamed to confess our sins, and not to try to stop the current of a river. Anyone who has experienced the sacrament of reconciliation understands the import of this verse.

Baruch 1:14 - again, this shows that the people made confession in the house of the Lord, before the assembly.

1 John 5:16-17; Luke 12:47-48 - there is a distinction between mortal and venial sins. This has been the teaching of the Catholic Church for 2,000 years, but, today, most Protestants no longer agree that there is such a distinction. Mortal sins lead to death and must be absolved in the sacrament of reconciliation. Venial sins do not have to be confessed to a priest, but the pious Catholic practice is to do so in order to advance in our journey to holiness.

Matt. 5:19 - Jesus teaches that breaking the least of commandments is venial sin (the person is still saved but is least in the kingdom), versus mortal sin (the person is not saved).

Top

Tradition / Church Fathers

I. The Early Church’s Practice of Oral Confession

Do not come to prayer with a guilty conscience.” Epistle of Barnabas, 19:12 (A.D. 74).

“In church confess your sins, and do not come to your prayer with a guilt conscience. Such is the Way of Life...On the Lord’s own day, assemble in common to break bread and offer thanks; but first confess your sins, so that your sacrifice may be pure.” Didache, 4:14,14:1 (c. A.D. 90).

“Moreover, it is in accordance with reason that we should return to soberness[of conduct], and, while yet we have opportunity, exercise repentance towards God. It is well to reverence both God and the bishop.” Ignatius, Epistle to the Smyraeans, 9 (c. A.D. 110).

“Moreover, that this Marcus compounds philters and love-potions, in order to insult the persons of some of these women, if not of all, those of them who have returned to the Church of God—a thing which frequently occurs—have acknowledged, confessing, too, that they have been defiled by him, and that they were filled with a burning passion towards him. A sad example of this occurred in the case of a certain Asiatic, one of our deacons, who had received him (Marcus) into his house. His wife, a woman of remarkable beauty, fell a victim both in mind and body to this magician, and, for a long time, travelled about with him. At last, when, with no small difficulty, the brethren had converted her, she spent her whole time in the exercise of public confession, weeping over and lamenting the defilement which she had received from this magician.” Irenaeus, Against Heresies, 1:13 (A.D. 180).

“Such are the words and deeds by which, in our own district of the Rhone, they have deluded many women, who have their consciences seared as with a hot iron. Some of them, indeed, make a public confession of their sins; but others of them are ashamed to do this, and in a tacit kind of way, despairing of [attaining to] the life of God, have, some of them, apostatized altogether; while others hesitate between the two courses, and incur that which is implied in the proverb, ‘neither without nor within;’ possessing this as the fruit from the seed of the children of knowledge.” Irenaeus, Against Heresies, 1:13 (A.D. 180).

“Father who knowest the hearts of all grant upon this Thy servant whom Thou hast chosen for the episcopate to feed Thy holy flock and serve as Thine high priest, that he may minister blamelessly by night and day, that he may unceasingly behold and appropriate Thy countenance and offer to Thee the gifts of Thy holy Church. And that by the high priestly Spirit he may have authority to forgive sins...” Hippolytus, Apostolic Tradition, 3 (A.D. 215).

“The Pontifex Maximus—that is, the bishop of bishops—issues an edict: ‘I remit, to such as have discharged (the requirements of) repentance, the sins both of adultery and of fornication.’” Tertullian, Modesty, 1 (A.D. 220).

“In addition to these there is also a seventh, albeit hard and laborious: the remission of sins through penance...when he does not shrink from declaring his sin to a priest of the Lord.” Origen, Homilies on Leviticus, 2:4 (A.D. 248).

“For although in smaller sins sinners may do penance for a set time, and according to the rules of discipline come to public confession, and by imposition of the hand of the bishop and clergy receive the right of communion: now with their time still unfulfilled, while persecution is still raging, while the peace of the Church itself is not vet restored, they are admitted to communion, and their name is presented; and while the penitence is not yet performed, confession is not yet made, the hands Of the bishop and clergy are not yet laid upon them, the eucharist is given to them; although it is written, ‘Whosoever shall eat the bread and drink the cup of the Lord unworthily, shall be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord.’” Cyprian, To the Clergy, 9 (16):2 (A.D. 250).

“Moreover, how much are they both greater in faith and better in their fear, who, although bound by no crime of sacrifice to idols or of certificate, yet, since they have even thought of such things, with grief and simplicity confess this very thing to God’s priests, and make the conscientious avowal, put off from them the load of their minds, and seek out the salutary medicine even for slight and moderate wounds, knowing that it is written, ‘God is not mocked.’ God cannot be mocked, nor deceived, nor deluded by any deceptive cunning. Yea, he sins the more, who, thinking that God is like man, believes that he evades the penalty of his crime if he has not openly admitted his crime…I entreat you, beloved brethren, that each one should confess his own sin, while he who has sinned is still in this world, while his confession may be received, while the satisfaction and remission made by the priests are pleasing to the Lord?” Cyprian, To the Lapsed, 28-29 (A.D. 251).

“It is necessary to confess our sins to those whom the dispensation of God’s mysteries is entrusted.” Basil, Rule Briefly Treated, 288 (A.D. 374).

“These are capital sins, brethren, these are mortal.” Pacian of Barcelona, Penance, 4 (A.D. 385).

“For if any one will consider how great a thing it is for one, being a man, and compassed with flesh and blood, to be enabled to draw nigh to that blessed and pure nature, he will then clearly see what great honor the grace of the Spirit has vouchsafed to priests; since by their agency these rites are celebrated, and others nowise inferior to these both in respect of our dignity and our salvation. For they who inhabit the earth and make their abode there are entrusted with the administration of things which are in Heaven, and have received an authority which God has not given to angels or archangels. For it has not been said to them, ‘Whatsoever ye shall bind on earth shall be bound in Heaven, and whatsoever ye shall loose on earth shall be loosed in Heaven.’ They who rule on earth have indeed authority to bind, but only the body: whereas this binding lays hold of the soul and penetrates the heavens; and what priests do here below God ratifies above, and the Master confirms the sentence of his servants. For indeed what is it but all manner of heavenly authority which He has given them when He says, ‘Whose sins ye remit they are remitted, and whose sins ye retain they are retained?’ What authority could be greater than this? ‘The Father hath committed all judgment to the Son?’ But I see it all put into the hands of these men by the Son.” John Chrysostom, The Priesthood, 3:5 (A.D. 387).

“The Church holds fast its obedience on either side, by both retaining and remitting sin; heresy is on the one side cruel, and on the other disobedient; wishes to bind what it will not loosen, and will not loosen what it has bound, whereby it condemns itself by its own sentence. For the Lord willed that the power of binding and of loosing should be alike, and sanctioned each by a similar condition…Each is allowed to the Church, neither to heresy, for this power has been entrusted to priests alone. Rightly, therefore, does the Church claim it, which has true priests; heresy, which has not the priests of God, cannot claim it. And by not claiming this power heresy pronounces its own sentence, that not possessing priests it cannot claim priestly power. And so in their shameless obstinacy a shamefaced acknowledgment meets our view. Consider, too, the point that he who has received the Holy Ghost has also received the power of forgiving and of retaining sin. For thus it is written: ‘Receive the Holy Spirit: whosesoever sins ye forgive, they are forgiven unto them, and whosesoever sins ye retain, they are retained.’ So, then, he who has not received power to forgive sins has not received the Holy Spirit. The office of the priest is a gift of the Holy Spirit, and His right it is specially to forgive and to retain sins. How, then, can they claim His gift who distrust His power and His right?” Ambrose, Concerning Repentance, I:7-8 (A.D. 388).

“All mortal sins are to be submitted to the keys of the Church and all can be forgiven; but recourse to these keys is the only, the necessary, and the certain way to forgiveness. Unless those who are guilty of grievous sin have recourse to the power of the keys, they cannot hope for eternal salvation. Open your lips, them, and confess your sins to the priest. Confession alone is the true gate to Heaven.” Augustine, Christian Combat (A.D. 397).

“Just as in the Old Testament the priest makes the leper clean or unclean, so in the New Testament the bishop and presbyter binds or looses not those who are innocent or guilty, but by reason of their office, when they have heard various kinds of sins, they know who is to be bound and who loosed.” Jerome, Commentary on Matthew, 3:16,19 (A.D. 398).

[johngrace]

http://www.scripturecatholic.com/confession.html#confession-I

[Jvette]

Well, I certainly agree that we are called to forgive those who sin against us.

But, if one can also retain sin, does that put into the hands of others whether or not a sin is forgiven? It seems in that case that forgiveness can be held hostage to the whims of human emotion or vengeance.

We have to go all the way back to the beginning to get it.

Adam and Eve sinned because they wanted what only God had, i.e. the knowledge of right and wrong. They wanted to choose for themselves what is right and what is wrong.

But, that judgment is retained by God and God alone.

Forgiving sins was one thing Jesus did that was considered blasphemous. Only God can forgive sin.

As johngrace has shown, Jesus specifically gave to the Apostles what God had given to Him, the power to forgive sins. It is the utmost in powers because sin is what separates us from eternity with God, and sin is why Jesus came as man and died such a horrific death.

If we repent, God in His mercy forgives. He has no axe to grind or petty human grudges. His mercy is boundless and unequivocal in the face of true repentance.

So, as you can see, I cannot accept that whether or not my sin is forgiven is in the hands of other men. And it must be pointed out not all sins are against others, some are against God and ourselves. Also, when the Church binds or looses, it does so under the guidance of the Holy Spirit, therefore it is not just some man, but God leading them.

When we bring our sins to a priest, we are not bringing them to a man, but to God. We are called to be honest with ourselves and to confess for our own spiritual health. When the priest speaks the words of absolution, he is not speaking for himself, he is speaking for Jesus.

[Bobsvainbabblings]

The Old Testament scriptures are all before God gave His Spirit to all who ask. The New Testament Scriptures speak of people who do not let God's Spirit guide them as Jesus promised to those who ask.

 

Men an incapable of understand the things of God, apart from the Holy Spirit. Whenever man attempts to think of God and his ways, apart from the Holy Spirit, he always fashions a god in his mind that resembles himself; his desires, his likes and dislikes, etc......

Now who thinks he knows the mind of God? He is the only one who knows whether my thoughts come from His Spirit or the spirit of the world. 

Here you go again. You are not the arbiter of fair, and all authority in heaven and earth comes FROM God. He is not bound by anything or anyone. God is not under rules; God is the rule.

Hebrews 6:13-20 (New King James Version)

 

God’s Infallible Purpose in Christ

   
¹³ For when God made a promise to Abraham, because He could swear by no one greater, He swore by Himself, ¹⁴ saying, “Surely blessing I will bless you, and multiplying I will multiply you.”^{[a] 15} And so, after he had patiently endured, he obtained the promise. ¹⁶ For men indeed swear by the greater, and an oath for confirmation is for them an end of all dispute. ¹⁷ Thus God, determining to show more abundantly to the heirs of promise the immutability of His counsel, confirmed it by an oath, ¹⁸ that by two immutable things, in which it is impossible for God to lie, we might^[b] have strong consolation, who have fled for refuge to lay hold of the hope set before us.
¹⁹ This hope we have as an anchor of the soul, both sure and steadfast, and which enters the Presence behind the veil, ²⁰ where the forerunner has entered for us, even Jesus, having become High Priest forever according to the order of Melchizedek.

God tells us we have free will. If He takes it away, it makes Him a liar which He says is an impossibility.

God has to abide by the rules He makes for us to trust Him.

Was it “fair” that Jesus suffered and died for people who were utterly sinful, although He Himself never committed a single sin?

God thinks so. That is all that matters. He asked Jesus to do it and He complied. Jesus used His free will to please His Father and save us of all.

Was it “fair” that Jesus chose 12 men to follow Him closely on earth and left everyone else out?

Was it “fair” that Jesus chose 3 men to be in His inner circle and left the other 9 out?

Was it “fair” that Jesus explained the parables to His disciples, without explaining them to the crowds?

All of this is the Church of the Magisterium making suppositions to bolster their claim that Jesus spent extra time with them to instruct them in the governance of a non scriptural physical earthly church.

He choose lots of people. You could just as easily suppose these men draw closer to Jesus because they believed Him more than the others. If He had truly shown favoritism to them, it would have been a sin.

God is way too big for our little minds. Rather than trying to reason your way to him, you need to humble yourself before His Word, and let Him tell you what He’s like. Let Him tell you about fairness. You should never rely on your own sense of right and wrong, and you should never, never, never rely on your own thought of God, for that is the essence of idolatry. I am sorry you think God is way be too big for your little mind. Jesus told me to come with the mind of a child and His Spirit will guide me.

It is only for my heavenly Father to judge whether my thoughts offend Him. He is the only One who matters. 

BVB

 

 

Was it “fair” that Jesus suffered and died for people who were utterly sinful, although He Himself never committed a single sin?

God thinks so. That is all that matters. He asked Jesus to do it and He complied. Jesus used His free will to please His Father and save us of all.

Was it “fair” that Jesus chose 12 men to follow Him closely on earth and left everyone else out?

Was it “fair” that Jesus chose 3 men to be in His inner circle and left the other 9 out?

Was it “fair” that Jesus explained the parables to His disciples, without explaining them to the crowds?

All of this is the Church of the Magisterium making suppositions to bolster their claim that Jesus spent extra time with them to instruct them in the governance of a non scriptural physical earthly church.

He choose lots of people. You could just as easily suppose these men draw closer to Jesus because they believed Him more than the others. If He had truly shown favoritism to them, it would have been a sin.

God is way too big for our little minds. Rather than trying to reason your way to him, you need to humble yourself before His Word, and let Him tell you what He’s like. Let Him tell you about fairness. You should never rely on your own sense of right and wrong, and you should never, never, never rely on your own thought of God, for that is the essence of idolatry. I am sorry you think God is way be too big for your little mind. Jesus told me to come with the mind of a child and His Spirit will guide me.

It is only for my heavenly Father to judge whether my thoughts offend Him. He is the only One who matters. 

BVB

Was it “fair” that Jesus suffered and died for people who were utterly sinful, although He Himself never committed a single sin?

God thinks so. That is all that matters. He asked Jesus to do it and He complied. Jesus used His free will to please His Father and save us of all.

Was it “fair” that Jesus chose 12 men to follow Him closely on earth and left everyone else out?

Was it “fair” that Jesus chose 3 men to be in His inner circle and left the other 9 out?

Was it “fair” that Jesus explained the parables to His disciples, without explaining them to the crowds?

All of this is the Church of the Magisterium making suppositions to bolster their claim that Jesus spent extra time with them to instruct them in the governance of a non scriptural physical earthly church.

He choose lots of people. You could just as easily suppose these men draw closer to Jesus because they believed Him more than the others. If He had truly shown favoritism to them, it would have been a sin.

God is way too big for our little minds. Rather than trying to reason your way to him, you need to humble yourself before His Word, and let Him tell you what He’s like. Let Him tell you about fairness. You should never rely on your own sense of right and wrong, and you should never, never, never rely on your own thought of God, for that is the essence of idolatry. I am sorry you think God is way be too big for your little mind. Jesus told me to come with the mind of a child and His Spirit will guide me.

It is only for my heavenly Father to judge whether my thoughts offend Him. He is the only One who matters. 

BVB

[paulist]

Reading your posts brings to mind an relevant Scripture passage.

“See to it that no one takes you captive by philosophy and empty deceit, according to human tradition, according to the elemental spirit of the world, and not according to Christ.” - Colossians 2:8

[Bobsvainbabblings]

“See to it that no one takes you captive by philosophy and empty deceit, according to human tradition, according to the elemental spirit of the world, and not according to Christ.” - Colossians 2:8

 

Thank you for trying to set me straight by posting that scripture. Please help me by answering these questions about that scripture so I can get things right.

 

1. What part of my posts makes you think I have been taken captive by philosophy & what philosophy you think it is?

                                                                                                                                                                    2. What part of my posts makes you think I have been taken captive by empty deceit?

3. What part of my posts makes you think I have been taken captive according to human tradition & what human tradition you think it is?

 

4. What part of my posts makes you think I have been taken captive according to the elemental spirit of the world, Satan? 

 

2. What part of my posts you think are not according to Christ?

Thanks, BVB

 

 

 

 

 

“See to it that no one takes you captive by philosophy and empty deceit, according to human tradition, according to the elemental spirit of the world, and not according to Christ.” - Colossians 2:8

 

Thank you for trying to set me straight by posting that scripture. Please help me by answering these questions about that scripture so I can get things right.

 

1. What part of my posts makes you think I have been taken captive by philosophy & what philosophy you think it is?

                                                                                                                                                                    2. What part of my posts makes you think I have been taken captive by empty deceit?

3. What part of my posts makes you think I have been taken captive according to human tradition & what human tradition you think it is?

 

4. What part of my posts makes you think I have been taken captive according to the elemental spirit of the world, Satan? 

 

2. What part of my posts you think are not according to Christ?

Thanks, BVB

 

 

“See to it that no one takes you captive by philosophy and empty deceit, according to human tradition, according to the elemental spirit of the world, and not according to Christ.” - Colossians 2:8

 

Thank you for trying to set me straight by posting that scripture. Please help me by answering these questions about that scripture so I can get things right.

 

1. What part of my posts makes you think I have been taken captive by philosophy & what philosophy you think it is?

                                                                                                                                                                    2. What part of my posts makes you think I have been taken captive by empty deceit?

3. What part of my posts makes you think I have been taken captive according to human tradition & what human tradition you think it is?

 

4. What part of my posts makes you think I have been taken captive according to the elemental spirit of the world, Satan? 

 

2. What part of my posts you think are not according to Christ?

Thanks, BVB

 

 

[paulist]

1. “God can do nothing to stop what we do, right or wrong. He also cannot stop what Satan does.”

2. “God can only suggest how we find truth.”

3. “He can only keep trying to show us the right way desiring all will use their free will to chose salvation”

4. “Just as God gives rules for our lives, He has given rules to Himself He cannot violate. Our freewill is one of those rules.”

5. “One of those rules allows us to have free will to make decisions, good or bad, in our lives. If He violates any rules He has made, including our free will, He is a liar and can’t be trusted about anything He says.”

Completely and utterly un-Scriptural. These are the musings of man, based on empty philosophy.

[Bobsvainbabblings]

More musings of a man I suppose,

Numbers 23:19 (New King James Version)

19 “God is not a man, that He should lie,
Nor a son of man, that He should repent.
Has He said, and will He not do?
Or has He spoken, and will He not make it good?

God says He is the same yesterday, today and tomorrow.

He gave me freewill. I had freewill yesterday. I have freewill today. I will have free will tomorrow.

He can only tell me I have to believe in His son for my salvation and that I will be damn to Hell if I refuse.

I used the freewill He gave me to choose His Son.

If you think that is completely and utterly un-Scriptural we have no more to talk about. Thanks BVB

[paulist]

“If you think that is completely and utterly un-Scriptural we have no more to talk about.”

The point is that the Scriptures you provide do not support your ridiculous assertions about God being bound by some “rules”, or that God must respect your “sovereign’ free will. There is only one Sovereign in this universe, and it isn’t you.

John 15:16 - “You did not choose me, but I chose you......”

Romans 9:14-16 - “What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Not at all! For he says to Moses, ‘I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.’ It does not, therefore, depend on man’s desire or effort, but on God’s mercy.”