The Real Presence [Church Fathers on the Holy Eucharist, cont'd ]

The Church Fathers ^ | 100AD-431AD

[Bobsvainbabblings]

I trust the church, because I trust Jesus.

It is a stretch to deny that there is no “church” regardless of how one wishes to interpret the word ekklesia.

There is a body of believers, one gathers with them to worship. It is clear that that is what the first Christians did.

There was obviously a need for teaching, correction and instruction on how one was to live within the body of Christ.

What I meant by saying there is no earthly church building, the people gethered in homes. It was never meant to evolve into what the Catholic Church has become. The Church claims Jesus spent extra time with the apostles to justify their claims. They use Jesus changing Peter's name and telling Peter to feed His sheep three times some how established an earthly church with Peter as its head.

We can look in the Old Testament to see how God set up His earthly priesthood and who would be their successors. He goes into great detail in every thing from how they dress. How the garments were to be made. What was to be sacrificed and how. If Jesus had done that in His Church, we wouldn't be arguing as to whether He is present in the communion wafer. 

Here is a sample of who the priests are and what they wear. Exodus 28:1-

Chapter 28

Aaron and his sons are to be consecrated and anointed to minister in the priest’s office—Aaron’s garments are to include a breastplate, an ephod, a robe, a coat, a miter, and a girdle—The breastplate of judgment is to contain twelve precious stones with the names of the tribes of Israel thereon—The Urim and Thummim are to be carried in the breastplate.

 1And take thou unto thee ^aAaron thy brother, and his sons with him, from among the children of Israel, that he may minister unto me in the ^bpriest’s ^coffice, even Aaron, ^dNadab and Abihu, Eleazar and ^eIthamar, Aaron’s ^fsons.

 2And thou shalt make holy ^agarments for Aaron thy brother for glory and for ^bbeauty.

 3And thou shalt speak unto all that are ^awise hearted, whom I have filled with the spirit of ^bwisdom, that they may make Aaron’s garments to consecrate him, that he may minister unto me in the priest’s office.

 4And these are the ^agarments which they shall make; a breastplate, and an ^bephod, and a robe, and a broidered ^ccoat, a ^dmitre, and a girdle: and they shall make holy garments for Aaron thy brother, and his sons, that he may minister unto me in the ^epriest’s office.

 5And they shall take gold, and blue, and purple, and scarlet, and fine linen.

 6¶And they shall make the ^aephod of gold, of blue, and of purple, of scarlet, and fine twined linen, with cunning work.

 7It shall have the two shoulderpieces thereof joined at the two edges thereof; and so it shall be joined together.

 8And the ^acurious girdle of the ephod, which is upon it, shall be of the same, according to the work thereof; even of gold, of blue, and purple, and scarlet, and fine twined linen.

 9And thou shalt take two ^aonyx stones, and grave on them the names of the children of Israel:

 10Six of their names on one stone, and the other six names of the rest on the other stone, according to their birth.

 11With the work of an ^aengraver in stone, like the engravings of a signet, shalt thou engrave the two stones with the names of the children of Israel: thou shalt make them to be set in ^bouches of gold.

 12And thou shalt put the two stones upon the shoulders of the ephod for stones of memorial unto the children of Israel: and Aaron shall bear their names before the Lord upon his two shoulders for a memorial.

 13¶And thou shalt make ouches of gold;

 14And two chains of pure gold at the ends; of ^awreathen work shalt thou make them, and fasten the wreathen chains to the ouches.

 15¶And thou shalt make the ^abreastplate of judgment with cunning work; ^bafter the work of the ephod thou shalt make it; of gold, of blue, and of purple, and of scarlet, and of fine twined linen, shalt thou make it.

 16Foursquare it shall be being doubled; a span shall be the length thereof, and a span shall be the breadth thereof.

 17And thou shalt set in it settings of stones, even four rows of stones: the first row shall be a sardius, a topaz, and a carbuncle: this shall be the first row.

 18And the second row shall be an emerald, a sapphire, and a diamond.

 19And the third row a ligure, an agate, and an amethyst.

 20And the fourth row a beryl, and an onyx, and a jasper: they shall be set in gold in their inclosings.

 21And the stones shall be with the names of the children of Israel, twelve, according to their names, like the engravings of a signet; every one with ^ahis name shall they be according to the ^btwelve tribes.

 22¶And thou shalt make upon the breastplate chains at the ends of wreathen work of pure gold.

 23And thou shalt make upon the breastplate two rings of gold, and shalt put the two rings on the two ends of the breastplate.

 24And thou shalt put the two wreathen chains of gold in the two rings which are on the ends of the breastplate.

 25And the other two ends of the two wreathen chains thou shalt fasten in the two ouches, and put them on the shoulderpieces of the ephod before it.

 26¶And thou shalt make two rings of gold, and thou shalt put them upon the two ends of the breastplate in the border thereof, which is ^ain the side of the ephod inward.

 27And two other rings of gold thou shalt make, and shalt put them on the two sides of the ephod underneath, toward the forepart thereof, over against the other coupling thereof, above the curious girdle of the ephod.

 28And they shall bind the breastplate by the rings thereof unto the rings of the ephod with a lace of blue, that it may be above the curious girdle of the ephod, and that the breastplate be not loosed from the ephod.

 29And Aaron shall bear the names of the children of Israel in the breastplate of judgment upon his heart, when he goeth in unto the holy place, for a memorial before the Lord continually.

 30¶And thou shalt put in the breastplate of judgment the ^aUrim and the Thummim; and they shall be upon Aaron’s heart, when he goeth in before the Lord: and Aaron shall bear the judgment of the children of Israel upon his heart before the Lord continually.

 31¶And thou shalt make the robe of the ephod all of blue.

 32And there shall be an ^ahole in the top of it, in the midst thereof: it shall have a binding of woven work round about the hole of it, as it were the ^bhole of an habergeon, that it be not rent.

 33¶And beneath upon the hem of it thou shalt make pomegranates of blue, and of purple, and of scarlet, round about the hem thereof; and bells of gold between them round about:

 34A golden bell and a pomegranate, a golden bell and a pomegranate, upon the hem of the robe round about.

 35And it shall be upon Aaron ^ato minister: and his sound shall be heard when he goeth in unto the holy place before the Lord, and when he cometh out, that he die not.

 36¶And thou shalt make a ^aplate of pure gold, and grave upon it, like the engravings of a signet, ^bHoliness to the Lord.

 37And thou shalt ^aput it on a blue lace, that it may be upon the ^bmitre; upon the forefront of the mitre it shall be.

 38And it shall be upon Aaron’s forehead, that Aaron may ^abear the iniquity of the holy things, which the children of Israel shall hallow in all their holy gifts; and it shall be always upon his forehead, that they may be ^baccepted before the Lord.

 39¶And thou shalt embroider the ^acoat of fine ^blinen, and thou shalt make the mitre of fine linen, and thou shalt make the girdle of needlework.

 40¶And for Aaron’s sons thou shalt make ^acoats, and thou shalt make for them girdles, and ^bbonnets shalt thou make for them, for glory and for beauty.

 41And thou shalt put them upon Aaron thy brother, and his sons with him; and shalt ^aanoint them, and ^bconsecrate them, and sanctify them, that they may minister unto me in the priest’s office.

 42And thou shalt make them linen breeches to cover their nakedness; from the loins even unto the thighs they shall reach:

 43And they shall be upon Aaron, and upon his sons, when they ^acome in unto the ^btabernacle of the congregation, or when they come near unto the altar to minister in the holy place; that they ^cbear not iniquity, and die: it shall be a ^dstatute for ever unto him and his seed after him.

If God had wanted a New Testament earthly Church Like the Catholic's have today, we would all know who the Pope is and why he wears what he wears. 

I said I read with a Catholic heart. You call that bias. I could then counter and say that when you read Scripture you do so with an anti-Catholic bias. You might claim that you have some special knowledge that I don’t have when you read that allows you to see the truth and hinders my ability to do likewise. I think that’s called Gnosticism.

I am sorry for the misunderstanding of what I meant by bias. I am old enough that I learned the whole world functioned in inches, feet, yards and miles. I am more comfortable with fractions then meters and milimeters. That is how I meant a bias. Because you were first schooled in Catholicism, you are more comfortable with their teachings. It is our nature.

What I can see from our conversation though is that we both love the Lord and though we have deep disagreements about how to live in that love, we can be honorable in those disagreements.

Thank you and may God bless us both with His truth, BVB

I trust the church, because I trust Jesus.

It is a stretch to deny that there is no “church” regardless of how one wishes to interpret the word ekklesia.

There is a body of believers, one gathers with them to worship. It is clear that that is what the first Christians did.

There was obviously a need for teaching, correction and instruction on how one was to live within the body of Christ.

What I meant by saying there is no earthly church building, the people gethered in homes. It was never meant to evolve into what the Catholic Church has become. The Church claims Jesus spent extra time with the apostles to justify their claims. They use Jesus changing Peter's name and telling Peter to feed His sheep three times some how established an earthly church with Peter as its head.

We can look in the Old Testament to see how God set up His earthly priesthood and who would be their successors. He goes into great detail in every thing from how they dress. How the garments were to be made. What was to be sacrificed and how. If Jesus had done that in His Church, we wouldn't be arguing as to whether He is present in the communion wafer. 

Here is a sample of who the priests are and what they wear. Exodus 28:1-

Chapter 28

Aaron and his sons are to be consecrated and anointed to minister in the priest’s office—Aaron’s garments are to include a breastplate, an ephod, a robe, a coat, a miter, and a girdle—The breastplate of judgment is to contain twelve precious stones with the names of the tribes of Israel thereon—The Urim and Thummim are to be carried in the breastplate.

 1And take thou unto thee ^aAaron thy brother, and his sons with him, from among the children of Israel, that he may minister unto me in the ^bpriest’s ^coffice, even Aaron, ^dNadab and Abihu, Eleazar and ^eIthamar, Aaron’s ^fsons.

 2And thou shalt make holy ^agarments for Aaron thy brother for glory and for ^bbeauty.

 3And thou shalt speak unto all that are ^awise hearted, whom I have filled with the spirit of ^bwisdom, that they may make Aaron’s garments to consecrate him, that he may minister unto me in the priest’s office.

 4And these are the ^agarments which they shall make; a breastplate, and an ^bephod, and a robe, and a broidered ^ccoat, a ^dmitre, and a girdle: and they shall make holy garments for Aaron thy brother, and his sons, that he may minister unto me in the ^epriest’s office.

 5And they shall take gold, and blue, and purple, and scarlet, and fine linen.

 6¶And they shall make the ^aephod of gold, of blue, and of purple, of scarlet, and fine twined linen, with cunning work.

 7It shall have the two shoulderpieces thereof joined at the two edges thereof; and so it shall be joined together.

 8And the ^acurious girdle of the ephod, which is upon it, shall be of the same, according to the work thereof; even of gold, of blue, and purple, and scarlet, and fine twined linen.

 9And thou shalt take two ^aonyx stones, and grave on them the names of the children of Israel:

 10Six of their names on one stone, and the other six names of the rest on the other stone, according to their birth.

 11With the work of an ^aengraver in stone, like the engravings of a signet, shalt thou engrave the two stones with the names of the children of Israel: thou shalt make them to be set in ^bouches of gold.

 12And thou shalt put the two stones upon the shoulders of the ephod for stones of memorial unto the children of Israel: and Aaron shall bear their names before the Lord upon his two shoulders for a memorial.

 13¶And thou shalt make ouches of gold;

 14And two chains of pure gold at the ends; of ^awreathen work shalt thou make them, and fasten the wreathen chains to the ouches.

 15¶And thou shalt make the ^abreastplate of judgment with cunning work; ^bafter the work of the ephod thou shalt make it; of gold, of blue, and of purple, and of scarlet, and of fine twined linen, shalt thou make it.

 16Foursquare it shall be being doubled; a span shall be the length thereof, and a span shall be the breadth thereof.

 17And thou shalt set in it settings of stones, even four rows of stones: the first row shall be a sardius, a topaz, and a carbuncle: this shall be the first row.

 18And the second row shall be an emerald, a sapphire, and a diamond.

 19And the third row a ligure, an agate, and an amethyst.

 20And the fourth row a beryl, and an onyx, and a jasper: they shall be set in gold in their inclosings.

 21And the stones shall be with the names of the children of Israel, twelve, according to their names, like the engravings of a signet; every one with ^ahis name shall they be according to the ^btwelve tribes.

 22¶And thou shalt make upon the breastplate chains at the ends of wreathen work of pure gold.

 23And thou shalt make upon the breastplate two rings of gold, and shalt put the two rings on the two ends of the breastplate.

 24And thou shalt put the two wreathen chains of gold in the two rings which are on the ends of the breastplate.

 25And the other two ends of the two wreathen chains thou shalt fasten in the two ouches, and put them on the shoulderpieces of the ephod before it.

 26¶And thou shalt make two rings of gold, and thou shalt put them upon the two ends of the breastplate in the border thereof, which is ^ain the side of the ephod inward.

 27And two other rings of gold thou shalt make, and shalt put them on the two sides of the ephod underneath, toward the forepart thereof, over against the other coupling thereof, above the curious girdle of the ephod.

 28And they shall bind the breastplate by the rings thereof unto the rings of the ephod with a lace of blue, that it may be above the curious girdle of the ephod, and that the breastplate be not loosed from the ephod.

 29And Aaron shall bear the names of the children of Israel in the breastplate of judgment upon his heart, when he goeth in unto the holy place, for a memorial before the Lord continually.

 30¶And thou shalt put in the breastplate of judgment the ^aUrim and the Thummim; and they shall be upon Aaron’s heart, when he goeth in before the Lord: and Aaron shall bear the judgment of the children of Israel upon his heart before the Lord continually.

 31¶And thou shalt make the robe of the ephod all of blue.

 32And there shall be an ^ahole in the top of it, in the midst thereof: it shall have a binding of woven work round about the hole of it, as it were the ^bhole of an habergeon, that it be not rent.

 33¶And beneath upon the hem of it thou shalt make pomegranates of blue, and of purple, and of scarlet, round about the hem thereof; and bells of gold between them round about:

 34A golden bell and a pomegranate, a golden bell and a pomegranate, upon the hem of the robe round about.

 35And it shall be upon Aaron ^ato minister: and his sound shall be heard when he goeth in unto the holy place before the Lord, and when he cometh out, that he die not.

 36¶And thou shalt make a ^aplate of pure gold, and grave upon it, like the engravings of a signet, ^bHoliness to the Lord.

 37And thou shalt ^aput it on a blue lace, that it may be upon the ^bmitre; upon the forefront of the mitre it shall be.

 38And it shall be upon Aaron’s forehead, that Aaron may ^abear the iniquity of the holy things, which the children of Israel shall hallow in all their holy gifts; and it shall be always upon his forehead, that they may be ^baccepted before the Lord.

 39¶And thou shalt embroider the ^acoat of fine ^blinen, and thou shalt make the mitre of fine linen, and thou shalt make the girdle of needlework.

 40¶And for Aaron’s sons thou shalt make ^acoats, and thou shalt make for them girdles, and ^bbonnets shalt thou make for them, for glory and for beauty.

 41And thou shalt put them upon Aaron thy brother, and his sons with him; and shalt ^aanoint them, and ^bconsecrate them, and sanctify them, that they may minister unto me in the priest’s office.

 42And thou shalt make them linen breeches to cover their nakedness; from the loins even unto the thighs they shall reach:

 43And they shall be upon Aaron, and upon his sons, when they ^acome in unto the ^btabernacle of the congregation, or when they come near unto the altar to minister in the holy place; that they ^cbear not iniquity, and die: it shall be a ^dstatute for ever unto him and his seed after him.

If God had wanted a New Testament earthly Church Like the Catholic's have today, we would all know who the Pope is and why he wears what he wears. 

I said I read with a Catholic heart. You call that bias. I could then counter and say that when you read Scripture you do so with an anti-Catholic bias. You might claim that you have some special knowledge that I don’t have when you read that allows you to see the truth and hinders my ability to do likewise. I think that’s called Gnosticism.

I am sorry for the misunderstanding of what I meant by bias. I am old enough that I learned the whole world functioned in inches, feet, yards and miles. I am more comfortable with fractions then meters and milimeters. That is how I meant a bias. Because you were first schooled in Catholicism, you are more comfortable with their teachings. It is our nature.

What I can see from our conversation though is that we both love the Lord and though we have deep disagreements about how to live in that love, we can be honorable in those disagreements.

Thank you and may God bless us both with His truth, BVB

[MEGoody]

Saying that the words He spoke were Spirit is not an adequate answer to me.

That's fine, and that's your choice. But you can't say no one answered your question.

He said they are Spirit and Life. Not symbols and life.

He also did not say they are flesh and life.

Of all the “hard things” Jesus said, that particular one is the only one that made some leave.

Not true. When Jesus told the man to sell all he had, give to the poor, and follow him, the man left.

Why tell them they had to EAT HIS FLESH and DRINK HIS BLOOD?

It's a spiritual act of receiving the sacrifice Jesus gave on the cross. I'm sure you won't agree with that answer, but you can't say your question wasn't answered. :)

[Jvette]

See, we agree again.

The only thing I can say regarding the disciples is that there was special authority and deference paid to those who actually walked with Jesus.

That is why they were suspicious of Paul, that and of course, his persecution of them.

The point is that from the beginning those who spent actual time with Jesus were considered in a different light.

As for the rest, I truly believe that the developments of the church and such were all natural and not surprising considering human nature.

[Bobsvainbabblings]

The only thing I can say regarding the disciples is that there was special authority and deference paid to those who actually walked with Jesus.

That is why they were suspicious of Paul, that and of course, his persecution of them.

The point is that from the beginning those who spent actual time with Jesus were considered in a different light.

As for the rest, I truly believe that the developments of the church and such were all natural and not surprising considering human nature.

  Let's see what Our Lord has to say about who He thought was special in the early Church.
 

Acts 8:10-17

And there was a certain disciple at Damascus, named Ananias; and to him said the Lord in a vision, Ananias. And he said, Behold, I am here, Lord. 11 And the Lord said to him, Arise, and go into the street which is called Straight, and inquire in the house of Judas for one called Saul, of Tarsus: for, behold, he prays, 12 And has seen in a vision a man named Ananias coming in, and putting his hand on him, that he might receive his sight. 13 Then Ananias answered, Lord, I have heard by many of this man, how much evil he has done to your saints at Jerusalem: 14 And here he has authority from the chief priests to bind all that call on your name. 15 But the Lord said to him, Go your way: for he is a chosen vessel to me, to bear my name before the Gentiles, and kings, and the children of Israel: 16 For I will show him how great things he must suffer for my name's sake. 17 And Ananias went his way, and entered into the house; and putting his hands on him said, Brother Saul, the Lord, even Jesus, that appeared to you in the way as you came, has sent me, that you might receive your sight, and be filled with the Holy Ghost.

Ananias is a disciple from Damascus who the Lord told in a vision what to do. The apostles had noting to do with this. Our Lord, and his Lord, spoke and he obeyed. That same disciple laid hands on Paul and filled him with the Holy Ghost.

The Church claims that Peter was somehow in charge. Nothing could be further from the truth. Our Lord and God's Spirit were in charge. Paul tells others multiple times he will do something if the Spirit bids him to do it. Not once dose he say, "If Peter wills it."

May God bless us with His truth, BVB

The only thing I can say regarding the disciples is that there was special authority and deference paid to those who actually walked with Jesus.

That is why they were suspicious of Paul, that and of course, his persecution of them.

The point is that from the beginning those who spent actual time with Jesus were considered in a different light.

As for the rest, I truly believe that the developments of the church and such were all natural and not surprising considering human nature.

  Let's see what Our Lord has to say about who He thought was special in the early Church.
 

Acts 8:10-17

[Jvette]

I think the problem here is that though Catholics do believe that St. Peter had primacy, we know that the Holy Spirit works through whomever He chooses.

Saul was on his way to Damascus and the Apostles were in Jerusalem, but that is beside the point that I am making here.

By accepting Peter’s place at the head, we do not mean that it is only through him that the Spirit works.

The Church is not just the pope and the Holy Spirit moves within so many that it is a mistake to think that He moves only through the pope.

This fact is perfectly demonstrated in the lives of saints who with the Holy Spirit added so much to the prayer life and charitable life of the church.

The pope is merely the visible head, and when he speaks as the Church we are assured of his infallibility. The Holy Spirit protects us from error in matters of faith and morals.

It is not your fault that your impression of the Church and her members is that of puppet master and oppressed followers. Nothing could be further from the truth, but that is the picture that is painted.