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My point is that Protestantism is fundamentally incoherent. How can the Bible be "the sole rule of faith" if Luther himself rejected his own principle, by rejecting the Bible that was in use in his day?

For the Bible to be inerrant, the source(s) that wrote, and preserved it must have been inerrant, and the authority that compiled it must have acted infallibly.

We're left with a dilemma: Either Luther acted infallibly in determining the canon of Scripture, or The Catholic Church acted infallibly in determining the Canon of Scripture.

Protestants often object that the Bible supports "Sola Scriptura." Even if that were true, this is a circular argument. One is assuming the inerrancy of the Bible to support the inerrancy of the Bible.

But Christians who love the Bible should not despair. There is a logically consistent argument in support of the inerrancy of Scripture. See the bold sections below.

Proving Inspiration

The Reformers said the Bible is the sole source of religious truth, and its understanding must be found by looking only at the words of the text. No outside authority may impose an interpretation, and no outside authority, such as the Church, has been established by Christ as an arbiter.

As heirs of the Reformers, fundamentalists work on the basis of sola scriptura, and they advance this notion at every opportunity. One might think it would be easy for them to explain why they believe this principle.

But there is perhaps no greater frustration, in dealing with fundamentalists, than in trying to pin them down on why the Bible should be taken as a rule of faith at all, let alone the sole rule of faith. It all reduces to the question of why fundamentalists accept the Bible as inspired, because the Bible can be taken as a rule of faith only if it is first held to be inspired and, thus, inerrant.

Now this is a problem that doesn't keep most Christians awake at night. Most have never given it any serious thought. To the extent they believe in the Bible, they believe in it because they operate in a milieu that is, if post-Christian in many ways, still steeped in Christian ways of thought and presuppositions.

A lukewarm Christian who wouldn't give the slightest credence to the Koran would think twice about casting aspersions on the Bible. It has a certain official status for him, even if he can't explain it. You might say he accepts the Bible as inspired (whatever that may mean for him) for some "cultural" reason, but that, of course, is hardly a sufficient reason, since on such a basis the Koran rightly would be considered inspired in a Moslem country.

Similarly, it is hardly enough to say that one's family has always believed in the Bible, "and that's good enough for me." It may indeed be good enough for the person disinclined to think, and one should not disparage a simple faith, even if held for an ultimately weak reason, but mere custom cannot establish the inspiration of the Bible.

Some fundamentalists say they believe the Bible is inspired because it is "inspirational," but that is a word with a double meaning. On the one hand, if used in the strict theological sense, it clearly begs the question, which is: How do we know the Bible is inspired, that is, "written" by God, but through human authors? And if "inspirational" means nothing more than "inspiring" or "moving," then someone with a deficient poetic sense might think the works of a poetaster are inspired.

Indeed, parts of the Bible, including several whole books of the Old Testament, cannot be called "inspirational" in this sense in the least, unless one works on the principle, reported by Ronald Knox, of the elderly woman who was soothed every time she heard "the blessed word Mesopotamia." One betrays no disrespect in admitting that some parts of the Bible are as dry as military statistics--indeed, some parts are nothing but military statistics--and there is little there that can move the emotions.

So, it is not enough to believe in the inspiration of the Bible merely out of culture or habit, nor is it enough to believe in its inspiration because it is a beautifully-written or emotion-stirring book. There are other religious books, and even some plainly secular ones, that outscore most of the Bible when it comes to fine prose or poetry.

What about the Bible's own claim to inspiration? There are not many places where such a claim is made even tangentially, and most books in the Old and New Testaments make no such claim at all. In fact, no New Testament writer seemed to be aware that he was writing under the impulse of the Holy Spirit, with the exception of the author of the Apocalypse.

Besides, even if every biblical book began with the phrase, "The following is an inspired book," such phrases would prove nothing. The Koran claims to be inspired, as does the Book of Mormon, as do the holy books of various Eastern religions. Even the writings of Mary Baker Eddy, founder of Christian Science, claim inspiration. The mere claim of inspiration is insufficient to establish a book's bona fides.

These tests failing, most fundamentalists fall back on the notion that "the Holy Spirit tells me the Bible is inspired," an exercise in subjectivism that is akin to their claim that the Holy Spirit guides them in interpreting the text. For example, the anonymous author of How Can I Understand the Bible?, a booklet distributed by the Radio Bible Class, lists twelve rules for Bible study. The first is, "Seek the help of the Holy Spirit. The Spirit has been given to illumine the Scriptures and make them alive to you as you study them. Yield to his enlightenment."

If one takes this as meaning that anyone asking for a proper interpretation will be given one by God--and that is exactly how most fundamentalists understand the assistance of the Holy Spirit to work--then the multiplicity of interpretations, even among fundamentalists, should give people a gnawing sense that the Holy Spirit hasn't been doing his job very effectively.

Most fundamentalists don't say, in so many words, that the Holy Spirit has spoken to them directly, assuring them of the inspiration of the Bible. They don't phrase it like that. Rather, in reading the Bible they are "convicted" that it is the word of God, they get a positive "feeling" that it is inspired, and that's that--which often reduces their acceptance of the Bible to culture or habit. No matter how it's looked at, the fundamentalist's position is not one that is rigorously reasoned to.

It must be the rare fundamentalist who, even for sake of argument, first approaches the Bible as though it is not inspired and then, upon reading it, syllogistically concludes it is. In fact, fundamentalists begin with the fact of inspiration--just as they take the other doctrines of fundamentalism as givens, not as deductions--and then they find things in the Bible that seem to support inspiration, claiming, with circular reasoning, that the Bible confirms its inspiration, which they knew all along.

The man who wrestles with the fundamentalist approach to inspiration (or any of these other approaches, for that matter) at length is unsatisfied because he knows he has no good grounds for his belief. The Catholic position is the only one that, ultimately, can satisfy intellectually.

The Catholic method of finding the Bible to be inspired is this. The Bible is first approached as any other ancient work. It is not, at first, presumed to be inspired. From textual criticism we are able to conclude that we have a text the accuracy of which is more certain than the accuracy of any other ancient work.

Sir Frederic Kenyon, in The Story of the Bible, notes that "For all the works of classical antiquity we have to depend on manuscripts written long after their original composition. The author who is the best case in this respect is Virgil, yet the earliest manuscript of Virgil that we now possess was written some 350 years after his death. For all other classical writers, the interval between the date of the author and the earliest extant manuscript of his works is much greater. For Livy it is about 500 years, for Horace 900, for most of Plato 1,300, for Euripides 1,600." Yet no one seriously disputes that we have accurate copies of the works of these writers.

Not only are the biblical manuscripts we have older than those for classical authors, we have in absolute numbers far more manuscripts to work from. Some are whole books of the Bible, others fragments of just a few words, but there are thousands of manuscripts in Hebrew, Greek, Latin, Coptic, Syriac, and other languages. What this means is that we can be sure we have an accurate text, and we can work from it in confidence.

Next we take a look at what the Bible, considered merely as a history, tells us, particularly the New Testament, and particularly the Gospels. We examine the account of Jesus's life and death and his reported resurrection.

Using what is in the Gospels themselves, what we find in extra-biblical writings from the early centuries, and what we know of human nature (and what we can otherwise, from natural theology, know of divine nature), we conclude that Jesus either was just what he claimed to be, God, or was a madman. (The one thing we know he could not have been was merely a good man who was not God, because no merely good man would make the claims he made.)

We are able to eliminate his being a madman not just from what he said--no madman ever spoke as he did; for that matter, no sane man ever did either--but from what his followers did after his death. A hoax (the supposedly empty tomb) is one thing, but you do not find people dying for a hoax, at least not one from which they have no prospect of advantage. The result of this line of reasoning is that we must conclude that Jesus indeed rose from the dead and that he was therefore God and, being God, meant what he said and did what he said he would do.

One thing he said he would do was found a Church, and from both the Bible (still taken as merely a historical book, not at this point in the argument as an inspired one) and other ancient works, we see that Christ established a Church with the rudiments of all we see in the Catholic Church today--papacy, hierarchy, priesthood, sacraments, teaching authority, and, as a consequence of the last, infallibility. Christ's Church, to do what he said it would do, had to have the note of infallibility.

We have thus taken purely historical material and concluded that there exists a Church, which is the Catholic Church, divinely protected against teaching error. Now we're at the last part of the argument.

That Church now tells us the Bible is inspired, and we can take the Church's word for it precisely because it is infallible. Only after having been told by a properly constituted authority (that is, one set up by God to assure us of the truth of matters of faith, such as the status of the Bible) that the Bible is inspired do we begin to use it as an inspired book.

Note that this is not a circular argument. We are not basing the inspiration of the Bible on the Church's infallibility and the Church's infallibility on the word of an inspired Bible. That indeed would be a circular argument. What we have is really a spiral argument. On the first level we argue to the reliability of the Bible as history. From that we conclude an infallible Church was founded. And then we take the word of that infallible Church that the Bible is inspired. It all reduces to the proposition that, without the existence of the Church, we could not tell if the Bible were inspired.

Now what has just been discussed is not, obviously, the kind of mental exercise people go through before putting trust in the Bible, but it is the only truly reasonable way to do so. Every other way is inferior--psychologically adequate, perhaps, but actually inferior. In mathematics we accept on "faith" that one and one makes two and that one, when added to any integer, will produce the next highest integer. These truths seem elementary to us and we are satisfied to take such things at face value, but apprentice mathematicians must go through a semester's course the whole of which is taken up demonstrating such "obvious" truths.

The point is that fundamentalists are quite right in believing the Bible is inspired, but their reasons for so believing are inadequate because knowledge of the inspiration of the Bible can be based only on an authority established by God to tell us the Bible is inspired, and that authority is the Church.

And this is where a more serious problem comes in. It seems to some that it makes little difference why one believes in the Bible's inspiration, just so one believes in it. But the basis for one's belief in its inspiration directly affects how one goes about interpreting the Bible. The Catholic believes in inspiration because the Church tells him so--that's putting it bluntly--and that same Church has the authority to interpret the inspired text. Fundamentalists believe in inspiration, though on weak grounds, but they have no interpreting authority other than themselves.

Cardinal Newman put it this way in an essay on inspiration first published in 1884: "Surely then, if the revelations and lessons in Scripture are addressed to us personally and practically, the presence among us of a formal judge and standing expositor of its words is imperative. It is antecedently unreasonable to suppose that a book so complex, so unsystematic, in parts so obscure, the outcome of so many minds, times, and places, should be given us from above without the safeguard of some authority; as if it could possibly, from the nature of the case, interpret itself. Its inspiration does but guarantee its truth, not its interpretation. How are private readers satisfactorily to distinguish what is didactic and what is historical, what is fact and what is vision, what is allegorical and what is literal, what is idiomatic and what is grammatical, what is enunciated formally and what occurs obiter, what is only of temporary and what is of lasting obligation? Such is our natural anticipation, and it is only too exactly justified in the events of the last three centuries, in the many countries where private judgment on the text of Scripture has prevailed. The gift of inspiration requires as its complement the gift of infallibility."

The advantages of the Catholic approach are two. First, the inspiration is really proved, not just "felt." Second, the main fact behind the proof--the fact of an infallible, teaching Church--leads one naturally to an answer to the problem that troubled the Ethiopian eunuch (Acts 8:31): How is one to know what interpretations are right? The same Church that authenticates the Bible, that establishes its inspiration, is the authority set up by Christ to interpret his Word.


1 posted on 01/23/2011 5:13:01 AM PST by St_Thomas_Aquinas
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To: St_Thomas_Aquinas

So the books of the Bible were solely selected by Luther? A false premise so the rest of the argument is not worth reading.

But of course if you want to attack Protestants its a good start.


2 posted on 01/23/2011 5:17:14 AM PST by driftdiver (I could eat it raw, but why do that when I have a fire.)
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To: St_Thomas_Aquinas
"We're left with a dilemma: Either Luther acted infallibly in determining the canon of Scripture, or The Catholic Church acted infallibly in determining the Canon of Scripture."

There's a clear, obvious third choice.

3 posted on 01/23/2011 5:22:40 AM PST by muir_redwoods (Obama. Chauncey Gardiner without the homburg.)
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To: St_Thomas_Aquinas

This is the great consolation of Catholicism: we have an historical Church tracing itself back to Christ who in turn promises His guidance to the same. Our reason after finding the historical Church serves as a buttress to the the divine gift of Faith. In a nutshell we are blessed with the whole deposit of Scripture and have no doubts about it....Come home folks!


5 posted on 01/23/2011 5:25:05 AM PST by GonzoII (Quia tu es, Deus, fortitudo mea...Quare tristis es anima mea?)
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To: St_Thomas_Aquinas
A remarkably stupid post by a remarkably ignorant Catholic. Anyone who has spent even the smallest amount of time studying scripture will know how Scripture came to be. This is rubbish. All Christian denominations, with the exception of the usual fringe, understand and recognize which books and included and, more importantly, why.
6 posted on 01/23/2011 5:25:38 AM PST by April Lexington (Study the Constitution so you know what they are taking away!)
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To: St_Thomas_Aquinas

Of course he did. And Islam is a religionofpeace.


10 posted on 01/23/2011 5:35:26 AM PST by the invisib1e hand (talk to the hand.)
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To: St_Thomas_Aquinas

“Therefore being justified by faith we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ. By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.”(Romans 5:1-2)

“So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.” (Romans 10:17)

I’ll chose to stand with the blind man that said:
“I know not whether this man be a sinner or no, but I know wherein I was blind, and now I see.” (John 9:25)
And:”Thy word is a lamp unto my feet, and a light unto my path.” Psalm 119:105)

“Entrance to thy words giveth light; it giveth understand unto the simple.” (Psalm 119:130)

JESUS SAID:”YE SHALL KNOW THEM BY THEIR FRUITS.”

WE SHOULD NOT SO MUCH AS DEBATE GOD’S WORD, BUT WE SHOULD LIVE IT, THAT IS THE PROOF!


18 posted on 01/23/2011 6:23:03 AM PST by LetMarch (If a man knows the right way to live, and does not live it, there is no greater coward. (Anonymous)
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To: St_Thomas_Aquinas

Having gotten my undergraduate degree from Notre Dame and taken a theology course taught by a priest who was a proponent of textual criticism I can assure you that proving the inspiration of Scripture is the furthest thing from the mind of the textual critic.

While the Catholic and Greek Orthodox churches may be the oldest Christian organizations on earth, it is the Baptists who most closely capture the faith and mindset of the early church fathers in the first few hundred years AD in this modern world.


20 posted on 01/23/2011 6:44:06 AM PST by Yet_Again
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To: St_Thomas_Aquinas

We’re left with a dilemma: Either Luther acted infallibly in determining the canon of Scripture, or The Catholic Church acted infallibly in determining the Canon of Scripture.


There is no church that is infallible, even the early church was being invaded by people who were trying to bring in false doctrines.

If you will read 1 cor ch 11 with a common sense approach you will see that Paul was telling the Corinthians that the men who were making a custom of wearing long hair and the women hacking their hair off was wrong, and he told them that the church of God did not have that custom.

The Christians at Corinth had been subjected to the customs of the religion of the Goddess Diana in which women shaved their heads and many of them became the whore of their temple, and the men let their hair grow long as to be in subjection to the woman or some such thing.

The spirit of God is the only reason some people believes Gods word and others do not.

The reason we have so many differences is because there are so many people thinks they have the revelation from God concerning a certain scripture that may be hard to understand, others may not want to understand some scripture the way it is written and will twist it around to make it appear to be the way they want it.

I believe it would be better to admit we do not know if we can not prove it with simple scripture, even if we really believe our understanding is the correct one.

I don,t know, but i believe religion is the culprit because religion is power and wealth, all churches that i have been to have points that i agree with and all of them have points i do not agree with.

I can set down with some one who has not been indoctrinated by a religious sect or raised in a church and have few things which we disagree , providing they are not college educated.

But trying to make a conservation with a person educated in religion or someone who has been indoctrinated by some one who has been educated in religion is impossible.

Well any way i don,t know anything ,just some thoughts concerning my way of thinking about it.


21 posted on 01/23/2011 6:44:54 AM PST by ravenwolf (Just a bit of the long list of proofs)
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To: St_Thomas_Aquinas

What’s up with all the negative religious stuff lately?

Bashing Mormons, Catholics and Protestants is becoming common here. It looks like an orchestrated effort to divide and conquer. I trust the good Lord to make himself known to each man and woman as he sees fit. His will be done.

I have enough of a hard time keeping myself “on the path” to worry about someone else.


29 posted on 01/23/2011 7:19:34 AM PST by Outrance
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To: St_Thomas_Aquinas

good description.


30 posted on 01/23/2011 7:19:42 AM PST by Cronos (Bobby Jindal 2012)
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To: St_Thomas_Aquinas; sayuncledave; 0beron; Molly K.; Not gonna take it anymore; Celtic Cross; ...
+

Freep-mail me to get on or off my Catholic Apologetics and the Defense of the Faith ping list:

Add me / Remove me

Please ping me to Catholic threads where I can help defend our common faith!

37 posted on 01/23/2011 7:34:38 AM PST by narses ( 'Prefer nothing to the love of Christ.')
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To: St_Thomas_Aquinas

Here is an article I posted a long time ago about how the canon is viewed by Orthodox, Protestants and Catholics. If you goal is understanding, it should help. If it is just to piss in someone else’s wheaties, don’t bother.

How We Got the New Testament - 2 1/2 Views (LONG!)

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-religion/2320483/posts


53 posted on 01/23/2011 8:10:19 AM PST by Mr Rogers (Poor history is better than good fiction, and anything with lots of horses is better still)
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To: St_Thomas_Aquinas
A question from the back of The Cathedral.

Martin Luther began his religious life as a Catholic Monk. What happened? What caused his dissastisfaction with The Catholic Church?

61 posted on 01/23/2011 8:17:05 AM PST by Texas Eagle (If it wasn't for double-standards, Liberals would have no standards at all -- Texas Eagle)
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To: St_Thomas_Aquinas

You might want to re-read your church history, discussions of canon were already happening in the early church, back to Origen and Irenaeus. Athanasius, Bishop of Alexandria, listed the same NT canon as we have today...in 367.

These were affirmed by the Synod of Hippo and the Council of Carthage under the authority of St. Augustine back around 400 AD. This was affirmed by Rome in the 4th century, and by the 5th the canon was considered pretty much settled.


81 posted on 01/23/2011 9:50:57 AM PST by Free Vulcan (The cult of Islam must be eradicated by any means necessary.)
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To: St_Thomas_Aquinas

** How do you know?**

W know that Martin Luther could not act infallibly because he was not a Pope or a Magisterium or did not represent the Catholic Church in any way at all.

He was and is WRONG!


84 posted on 01/23/2011 9:57:50 AM PST by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: St_Thomas_Aquinas
Bible


"We are compelled to concede to the Papists
that they have the Word of God,
that we received it from them,
and that without them
we should have no knowledge of it at all."

~ Martin Luther



History of the Bible (caution: long)
Catholic and Protestant Bibles
THE CATHOLIC CHURCH: ON READING THE BIBLE [Catholic Caucus]

Because I Love the Bible
Where Is That Taught in the Bible?
When Was the Bible Really Written?
Three Reasons for Teaching the Bible [St. Thomas Aquinas]
The Smiting Is Still Implied (God of the OT vs the NT)
Where Is That Taught in the Bible?
Friday Fast Fact: The Bible in English
Bible Reading is Central in Conversions to Catholicism in Shangai, Reports Organization
Verses (in Scripture) I Never Saw
5 Myths about 7 Books

Lectionary Statistics - How much of the Bible is included in the Lectionary for Mass? (Popquiz!)
Pope calls Catholics to daily meditation on the Bible
What Are the "Apocrypha?"
The Accuracy of Scripture
US Conference of Catholic Bishops recommendations for Bible study
CNA unveils resource to help Catholics understand the Scriptures
The Dos and Don’ts of Reading the Bible [Ecumenical]
Pope to lead marathon Bible reading on Italian TV
The Complete Bible: Why Catholics Have Seven More Books [Ecumenical]
Beginning Catholic: Books of the Catholic Bible: The Complete Scriptures [Ecumenical]

Beginning Catholic: When Was The Bible Written? [Ecumenical]
The Complete Bible: Why Catholics Have Seven More Books [Ecumenical]
U.S. among most Bible-literate nations: poll
Bible Lovers Not Defined by Denomination, Politics
Dei Verbum (Catholics and the Bible)
Vatican Offers Rich Online Source of Bible Commentary
Clergy Congregation Takes Bible Online
Knowing Mary Through the Bible: Mary's Last Words
A Bible Teaser For You... (for everyone :-)
Knowing Mary Through the Bible: New Wine, New Eve

Return of Devil's Bible to Prague draws crowds
Doctrinal Concordance of the Bible [What Catholics Believe from the Bible] Catholic Caucus
Should We Take the Bible Literally or Figuratively?
Glimpsing Words, Practices, or Beliefs Unique to Catholicism [Bible Trivia]
Catholic and Protestant Bibles: What is the Difference?
Church and the Bible(Caatholic Caucus)
Pope Urges Prayerful Reading of Bible
Catholic Caucus: It's the Church's Bible
How Tradition Gave Us the Bible
The Church or the Bible

86 posted on 01/23/2011 9:59:29 AM PST by Salvation ("With God all things are possible." Matthew 19:26)
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To: St_Thomas_Aquinas

The biblical canon was set long before Luther. The only book he questioned was James because of its emphasis on works, but as we know, he relented.


105 posted on 01/23/2011 10:45:19 AM PST by InvisibleChurch ( ever y one has the rig ht to be left out)
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To: St_Thomas_Aquinas

Your whole post is based on fiction. Your bias of the Reformation and Martin Luther has no basis in fact. Read the following learn some factual history in regards to Martin Luther’s beliefs.

You might be surprised to find Luther was more in line with the Catholic church, no surprise since he was raised Catholic.

Apocrypha—intertestamental books

The additional books included in Roman Catholic Bibles are the so-called Apocrypha, several books written between the time of the Old and New Testaments. Generally considered to be part of the Apocrypha are 1 and 2 Esdras, Tobit, Judith, Wisdom of Solomon, Ecclesiasticus, Baruch, Letter of Jeremiah, Prayer of Manasseh, 1 and 2 Maccabees, and additions to Daniel and Esther. In 1546, at the Council of Trent and as part of the Counter-Reformation, the Catholic Church officially declared the Apocrypha to be part of the biblical canon. Their omission of 1 and 2 Esdras and the Prayer of Manasseh from the list seems to have been a mistake since they are included in later, official editions of Catholic Bibles.

Apocryphal books have been included in various editions of the Bible prior to and beyond Roman Catholic Bibles. They were included in the Greek translation of the Old Testament known as the Septuagint, although manuscripts of the Septuagint are not consistent about which books are included. St. Jerome included them in his Latin translation, the Vulgate (about 400 a.d.). Luther included them in his German translation of the Bible. Editions of the King James Bible also included them.

Apocrypha—inspired books?

The critical question is whether they are part of the biblical canon and should be regarded as divinely inspired. The Jewish believers prior to Christ did not consider them canonical. The Old Testament at the time of Jesus had three major divisions: the law of Moses, the prophets, and the psalms—but no apocryphal books. Jesus and the apostles did not consider them inspired or authoritative. Luther said they were beneficial books to read, but they could not be recognized as part of the inspired books of the Bible. Not all Catholics accepted them as part of the Bible until the church hierarchy declared them to be so and attached a curse on everyone who did not accept their ruling.

Protestants do not count the apocryphal books among inspired ones for two reasons: (1) Jesus did not accept them as canonical, and (2) they contain errors and anti-scriptural teachings (like praying for the dead). In fairness it should be said that false doctrines in Catholicism result more from tradition and misuse of canonical Scripture.

If people are worried that by excluding the Apocrypha from the canon they will miss out on something God wants them to know, they should read these books. I believe that their fears will be quickly laid to rest.

You rightly observe that official Catholic Bible translations differ to a degree from Protestant ones. The main reason for this is that Protestant translations are normally based on the original Hebrew and Greek texts of the Old and New Testaments, while Catholic translations are usually based on their official authoritative text—the Latin Vulgate. John Wyclif’s pre-Reformation English translation was drawn from the Vulgate, but after the Reformation only Catholic translations continued to lean on that Latin version. This explains most translation differences that prevail despite the fact that all are translations of the Bible text.


138 posted on 01/23/2011 11:57:44 AM PST by Vegasrugrat
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To: St_Thomas_Aquinas

My point is that worship of the catholic ‘church’ is fundamentally incoherent, and evil beyond all comprehension.

No man can or ever has acted ‘infallibly,’ but the Holy Spirit, who guides us to the word of God, does constantly.


162 posted on 01/23/2011 12:25:14 PM PST by editor-surveyor (NOBAMA - 2012)
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To: St_Thomas_Aquinas; CynicalBear; editor-surveyor; muir_redwoods; cripplecreek; Lexington; GonzoII; ..

What follows is a lot to digest, and i am not going to get into another extended FR debate on all this, which might be better done with the sources, but provide this as a supplement to what has been said here.

It is a common misconception that Luther was basically acting alone and in a summary manner in rejecting the apocrypha, and did not include James and Hebrews in his Bible, and the we look to Luther as a pope, but in reality the rejecting and questioning of a few books by Luther, whose views were part inn a process of development, was based upon the judgment of scholars of Rome and scholarly principles. Luther and the Reformers treated the Apocrypha as did many in the centuries preceding them, which was that these books are not to be held as equal to the Scriptures, but are useful and good to read. More.

Substantial dissent existed through the centuries and right into Trent, even among some of the best scholars over the apocryphal books. (Hubert Jedin Papal Legate At The Council Of Trent: St Louis: B. Herder Book Co., 1947; pp. 278, 281-282). Among them was Cardinal Seripando. The Roman Catholic historian (and expert on Trent) Hubert Jedin explained “he was aligned with the leaders of a minority that was outstanding for its theological scholarship” at the Council of Trent.” The Roman Catholic historian (and expert on Trent) Hubert Jedin writes that his position was Tobias, Judith, the Book of Wisdom, the books of Esdras, Ecclesiasticus, the books of the Maccabees, and Baruch are only "canonici et ecclesiastici" and make up the canon morum in contrast to the canon fidei. These, Seripando says in the words of St. Jerome, are suited for the edification of the people, but they are not authentic, that is, not sufficient to prove a dogma. Seripando emphasized that in spite of the Florentine canon the question of a twofold canon was still open and was treated as such by learned men in the Church. Without doubt he was thinking of Cardinal Cajetan, who in his commentary on the Epistle to the Hebrews accepted St. Jerome's view which had had supporters throughout the Middle Ages.” (Hubert Jedin, Papal Legate At The Council Of Trent (St Louis: B. Herder Book Co., 1947), pp. 270-271).

Despite decrees by early councils such as Hippo, Carthage and Florence, the decision of Trent in 1546 was the first “infallible” and final definition of the Roman Catholic canon, (New Catholic Encyclopedia, Vol. II, Bible, III (Canon), p. 390; The Canons and Decrees of the Council of Trent : Rockford: Tan, 1978), Fourth Session, Footnote #4, p. 17) possibly after a vote of 24 yea, 15 nay, with 16 abstaining (44%, 27%, 29%). This definition, coming over 1400 hundreds years after the last book was written, was issued in reaction to Martin Luther and the Reformation. And in so doing, it arguably chose to follow a weaker tradition in pronouncing the apocryphal books to be inspired. In addition, some of the books of the Pseudepigrapha were invoked by some church fathers, and found their way into other canons of various Eastern churches.

Thus , if the canon list was dogma prior to Trent, then there were many Catholics throughout history who would have been de facto excommunicated. More.

Jedin also explains that Luther “was aligned with the leaders of a minority that was outstanding for its theological scholarship” at the Council of Trent. Luther's opponent at Augsburg, Cardinal Cajetan, following Jerome, expressed doubts concerning the canonicity of Hebrews, James, 2 and 3 John, and Jude. Of the latter three he states, "They are of less authority than those which are certainly Holy Scripture."63 Erasmus likewise expressed doubts concerning Revelation as well as the apostolicity of James, Hebrews and 2 Peter. It was only as the Protestant Reformation progressed, and Luther's willingness to excise books from the canon threatened Rome that, at Trent, the Roman Catholic Church hardened its consensus stand on the extent of the New Testament canon into a conciliar pronouncement.64 http://bible.org/article/evangelicals-and-canon-new-testament#P137_49234 Nor was Luther the first to have “alone” in Rm. 3:28.

The Catholic Encyclopedia states also, "only the decisions of ecumenical councils and the ex cathedra teaching of the pope have been treated as strictly definitive in the canonical sense, and the function of the magisterium ordinarium has been concerned with the effective promulgation and maintenance of what has been formally defined by the magisterium solemne or may be legitimately deduced from its definitions." http://www.bible-researcher.com/gelasius.html

The oft made claim that the Council of Rome (382) approved an infallible canon is contrary to later Roman Catholic statements which point to Trent, and the prior claim depends upon the Decretum Gelasianum, the authority of which is disputed (among RC's themselves), based upon evidence that is was pseudepigraphical, being a sixth century compilation put together in northern Italy or southern France at the beginning of the 6th cent. More: http://www.tertullian.org/articles/burkitt_gelasianum.htm

Therefore, as shown in previous debates, what can be said is that the Roman Catholic canon was largely settled early by the time of Carthage, but not without disagreement by notable Catholics scholars until Trent settled the issue, when it provided the “first infallible and effectually promulgated declaration on the Canon of the Holy Scriptures,” (The Canons and Decrees of the Council of Trent (Rockford: Tan, 1978), Fourth Session, Footnote #4, p. 17; http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/03267a.htm; cf. New Catholic Encyclopedia, Vol. II, Bible, III (Canon), p. 390) though this was not exactly the same canon affirmed by such councils as Carthage, but which ended the debate which went on among Roman Catholic scholars right into Trent. (Hubert Jedin, Papal Legate At The Council Of Trent (St Louis: B. Herder Book Co., 1947), pp. 278, 281-282.“ More . And that in Trent itself there was some debate about the apocrypha, and that Luther sided with some notable Catholic authorities in rejecting the it, yet he commented favorably upon 1 Maccabees as being able to be included. He questioned the apostolicity of Hebrews, James, Jude, and Revelation because the early church categorized these books as antilegomena. Yet Luther 's Bible contained the disputed books, though they were placed last in order, while his views on some of these books changed in later years.

As for James and Hebrews,

He had a low view of Hebrews, James, Jude, and the Revelation, and so when he published his New Testament in 1522 he placed these books apart at the end. In his Preface to Hebrews, which comes first in the series, he says, "Up to this point we have had to do with the true and certain chief books of the New Testament. The four which follow have from ancient times had a different reputation."'

Regarding James, in his preface he states,

Though this epistle of St. James was rejected by the ancients, 1 I praise it and consider it a good book, because it sets up no doctrines of men but vigorously promulgates the law of God. However, to state my own opinion about it, though without prejudice to anyone, I do not regard it as the writing of an apostle; and my reasons follow.

In the first place it is flatly against St. Paul and all the rest of Scripture in ascribing justification to works. It says that Abraham was justified by his works when he offered his son Isaac; though in Romans 4 St. Paul teaches to the contrary that Abraham was justified apart from works, by his faith alone, before he had offered his son, and proves it by Moses in Genesis 15.”

In the second place its purpose is to teach Christians, but in all this long teaching it does not once mention the Passion, the resurrection, or the Spirit of Christ.

Luther's translation of the Bible contained all of its books. Luther also translated and included the Apocrypha, saying, "These books are not held equal to the Scriptures, but are useful and good to read." He expressed his thoughts on the canon in prefaces placed at the beginning of particular Biblical books. In these prefaces, he either questioned or doubted the canonicity of Hebrews, James, Jude, and Revelation (his Catholic contemporaries, Erasmus and Cardinal Cajetan, likewise questioned the canonicity of certain New Testament books). Of his opinion, he allows for the possibility of his readers to disagree with his conclusions. Of the four books, it is possible Luther's opinion fluctuated on two (Hebrews and Revelation). Luther was of the opinion that the writers of James and Jude were not apostles, therefore these books were not canonical. Still, he used them and preached from them.” Five More Luther Myths

Luther's questioned Hebrews by pointing out that throughout Church history it has had a “reputation” of uncertain canonicity. Erasmus had a critical attitude to the same four New Testament books Luther did. Cardinal Cajetan questioned the canonical status of Hebrews, James, II Peter, II and III John, and Jude (among others).

The Epistle of James is classed by Eusebius (in Bk. III. chap. 25) among the antilegomena (disputed books). The ancient testimonies for its authenticity are very few: It was used by no one, except Hermas, down to the end of the second century. Iren`us seems to have known the epistle (his works exhibit some apparent reminiscences of it), but he nowhere directly cites it. The Muratorian Fragment omits it, but the Syriac Peshito contains it, and Clement of Alexandria shows a few faint reminiscences of it in his extant works, and according to Eusebius VI. 14, wrote commentaries upon "Jude and the other catholic epistles." (see Bk. III. chap. 25, note 1).” Source: Nicene and Post Nicene Fathers Series II, Vol. 1 http://www.ccel.org/fathers2/NPNF2-01/footnote/fn14.htm

Most writing from before 200 do not mention the Epistle of James. One significant text does quote James: The Shepherd of Hermas, written before 140 M66. (The theologian and biblical scholar, Origen, quotes James extensively between 230 and 250. He mentions that James was Jesus' brother, but does not make it clear if the letter is scripture M138. Hippolytus and Tertullian, from early in the third century, do not mention or quote James. Cyprian of Carthage, in the middle of the third century, also makes no mention. The "Muratorian Canon," from around 200, lists and comments on New Testament books, but fails to mention James, Hebrews, and 1 and 2 Peter. Yet by 340 Eusebius of Caesarea, an early Christian historian, acknowledges that James is both canonical and orthodox, and widely read. However, he categorizes it, along with the other catholic epistles, as "disputed texts" M203. Two Greek New Testaments from that time each include James, along with the other catholic epistles M207. In 367 Athanasius lists the 27 New Testament books we presently use as the definitive canon M212. But the battle for James was not won. Bishops in 428 and 466 rejected all the catholic epistles M215. Early bibles from Lebanon, Egypt, Armenia, India and China do not include James before the sixth century M219. A ninth century manuscript from Mount Sinai leaves out the catholic epistles and the Syriac Church, headquartered in Kerala, India, continues to use a lectionary without them still today M220. — James and Canon: The Early Evidence)

Also, as one researcher states, neither was Rome completely unified in its soteriology before Trent, and between extremes “were many combinations; and though certain views predominated in late nominalism. In condemning the Protestant Reformation, the Council of Trent condemned part of its own catholic tradition." — Jaroslav Pelikan, The Riddle of Roman Catholicism (New York: Abingdon Press, 1959), pp. 51-52.

As for the claim that Scripture has no infallible list, this is true, but it also evidences that writings were recognized as being such (and faith was preserved) by Jesus time without an assuredly infallible magisterium (AIM), as its means of establishment was essentially the same as how a true man of God is established as such, by his/her unique qualities and supernatural effects, which conform to that which God prior established by the same means. The manna from heaven owes its enduring acceptance to what it is and thus does, more than church decrees, as valid and helpful as they can be.

And there is also no infallible list of traditions, nor a complete list of all infallible definitions. And the “stewardship=infallibility logic is invalid, and would require submission to the Judaism.

217 posted on 01/23/2011 2:46:35 PM PST by daniel1212 ( "Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out," Acts 3:19)
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