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Why the Dome-of-the-Rock is Better than a Re-Built Temple
American Vision ^ | December 10, 2010 | Joel McDurmon

Posted on 12/10/2010 9:41:02 AM PST by topcat54

Why is there no need for a Jewish Temple to replace the Muslim Dome-of-the-Rock?

Well, first of all, the Dome is very pretty, and would make a nice Church some day.

But secondly, the idea that a Jewish Temple must one day (soon) stand in the place of the Muslim Dome of the Rock is a pure superstition. It is founded upon a tradition of the Jews—infused with some imagination—and not upon any command of God’s Word.

With all of the talk and Bible study concerning the Jewish Temple Mount, you would expect the Bible to have much to say about that particular Mount. But most Christians—especially the ones who lecture us most about a coming rebuilt Temple—would certainly be surprised by how little the Bible actually says about that location. Most of what is assured to us today—and what is the subject of geopolitical tension and theological fighting—is founded upon little more than assumptions.

We are told in 2 Chronicles 3:1 that Solomon built the Temple on Mount Moriah, and that this was the location of Ornan’s threshingfloor which David purchased. Today archeological evidence places the site of the Second Temple (Herod’s Temple, the one which stood when Jesus walked the earth) where the golden-domed Mosque now stands. But surprisingly, there is no archaeological proof that the first Temple, Solomon’s Temple, stood on that same location, although there is no evidence of it being anywhere else, either. So, we are left with no proof—biblical or historical—that the current Temple Mount is in the same place as Ornan’s threshingfloor. But this is not the main point of the story.

Before we go further, we should remember that there are actually a series of mountains associated with the city of Jerusalem: Mounts Moriah, Zion, Olives, and a few others that have little or no biblical significance of which we can tell. Mt. Zion is the highest peak, and stands almost half a mile west of the Temple Mount itself, which is Mt. Moriah. Between the two is a considerable valley. Even farther east of the Temple Mount, across an even deeper valley, rises the Mount of Olives which is also higher than Mt. Moriah. From this peak, Jesus and His disciples looked westward upon the Temple, and Jesus declared its pending destruction (Matt. 24, Mark 13, Luke 21). A picture from the Mount of Olives today reveals the Mosque to the west where the Temple once was, and the clearly much higher ridge of Mt. Zion farther in the western background. Here’s a simple cross-section on Wikipedia illustrating the relationship in size and location of Mt. Zion (left) and the Temple Mount, Moriah.

The Biblical Data

On what grounds was the Temple ever built on Mt. Moriah to begin with?

For the location of the Temple, the Bible tells us Solomon chose Mt. Moriah, “where the Lord had appeared to David his father, at the place that David had appointed, on the threshing floor of Ornan the Jebusite” (2 Chron 3:1 ESV). “Appointed” is more properly “prepared,” as the KJV and NAS have it. David not only appointed this place, but actively established, made ready, or set up the site. And why did David establish this as a site for a permanent Temple? Did he have a command from God to do so?

Not really. The story of David and Ornan is told a few chapters earlier in 1 Chronicles 21. God had sent a plague upon the people of Israel as punishment for David numbering the people (1 Chron. 21:1–14). Via the Angel of the Lord, the plague killed 70,000 men. When the Angel reached Jerusalem, God stopped short of destroying the city, and the Angel was stopped at the point of Ornan’s threshingfloor.

Then God sent the prophet Gad to instruct David to go to Ornan’s threshingfloor and set up an altar in that place. This would have been a simple altar of uncut stones and without steps, according to God’s law (Ex. 20:24–26). David obeyed. The altar was eventually set up, David offered sacrifices and prayers to God, and God answered by fire from heaven upon the altar. All said and done, the Angel of the Lord was commanded to sheathe his sword, officially ending the plague upon Israel.

It is important to note all that was required of David, and the purpose for it. David was only required by God to build an altar, not even necessarily to sacrifice on it. And the purpose of the altar was clearly in response to the presence of God’s wrath via the Angel of the Lord and the temporary instance of the plague. There is no indication anywhere that God intended this to be a permanent location, and there certainly is no requirement, commandment, or statute that it should be so.

Ornan, however, was actually willing to donate the whole property to the King for this purpose. David insisted on paying for it. The transaction went down. Therefore, the property legally belonged to David. Since God never indicated any need to dedicate the property to the Lord or a Temple or Priesthood, then we can only assume that for the rest of David’s life, the property legally belonged to the King.

Consequently, it was purely David’s decision—not God’s command—that the Temple be built at the site of Ornan’s (Araunah in 2 Sam. 24) threshingfloor.

But David himself was not allowed to build a house for God; God forbid him to do so because he had been a man of bloodshed and war (1 Chron. 22:8). Rather, David’s future son would build the house, and “his name shall be Solomon” (1 Chron. 22:9). He would be a man of rest.

As a side note, we could easily assume that God referred to David’s then immediate son Solomon. But remember, when that Solomon was born, it was David who named him Solomon; but God sent the prophet Nathan to give the child a different God-given name, Jedidiah (2 Sam. 12:24–25). God did not see David’s “Solomon” as Solomon, but Jedidiah. Moreover, David’s words to Solomon indicate that the son who would build the Temple and bring peace was yet to be born: “Behold, a son shall be born to you who shall be a man of rest” (1 Chron. 22:9). Obviously, as David spoke, his Solomon was already born, alive and listening to his father speak. We are left to conclude that the ultimate Solomon—“peaceable and perfect”—which God promised David was Jesus. In the mean time, Solomon would provide a type of that yet-to-come True Solomon.

When Solomon later built a house to the Lord, he followed through with what his father had already established and prepared (2 Chron. 3:1). Like his father, Solomon had no explicit direction or command from God where to put the Temple, but only directions to build it and how. In addition to having bought the real estate and established it as the site, David also prepared raw materials, construction supplies, organized labor, and secured government clearances, support, and aid for the construction project he put before his son (1 Chron. 22:2–5, 14–19).

The whole project, from conception to completion, was David’s design. The only exception was the pattern for the Temple and its instruments: these God supplied to David (1 Chron. 28:11–19). But of the location of the Temple, God commanded nothing. It was David’s decision.

David decided this location not because he had a command from God or directions from the prophet, but because he was afraid of the Angel of the Lord that had been stationed at Ornan’s threshingfloor. Even though God had accepted David’s sacrifices, the Angel of the Lord had sheathed His sword, and the plague and threat were ended, David nevertheless was afraid.

Meanwhile, the actual priesthood, the tabernacle, and the ark of the covenant were all fifteen miles away in Gibeon (1 Chron. 21:29; 16:37–43). But, “David could not go before it to inquire of God, for he was afraid of the sword of the angel of the Lord” (1 Chron. 21:30). Yet in the very next verse (22:1), we find David declaring of Ornan’s threshingfloor, “Here shall be the house of the Lord God and here the altar of burnt offering for Israel.”

So not only did David not have a command from God where to build, but he never even asked God. Afraid to leave the place he was at, he just declared it, unilaterally, the site of God’s House.

Thus the location of Solomon’s Temple was the result of David’s momentary weakness and self-interested convenience.

Zion or Moriah?

Many people have argued that the site on Mt. Moriah is significant for the Temple because it is the same spot where Abraham bound Isaac as a sacrifice, and where God provided the substitute. Thus David’s altar was upon the same spot as Abraham’s altar, and thus the Temple belongs there. The proof of this is supposed to be in Genesis 22:2, where God tells Abraham, “Take your son, your only son Isaac, whom you love, and go to the land of Moriah, and offer him there as a burnt offering on one of the mountains of which I shall tell you.” But notice here God does not designate “Mount Moriah” as is designated in 2 Chronicles 3:1. Here it only says the “land of Moriah,” which is a general area. Remember that this area, assuming it is the Jerusalem area, has several mountains. In this general area, God promises to reveal to Abraham “one of the mountains” on which to sacrifice. In the rest of the story in Genesis 22, we are never told exactly which one of the mountains God chose. Anyone arguing that it must be Mount Moriah is trying to get away with an argument from silence—a pure assumption unwarranted by the Scripture.

But there is good reason for this silence. God does not want any particular geographic location to become an idol for His people. He wants us to be free from all idolatry, including inordinate attachments to the rituals and rudiments he once commanded. At other times, God has “hidden” certain things in order to prevent idolatry. He would not allow the whereabouts of Moses’ body to be known after his death (Deut. 34:5–6). Similarly, He allowed the ark of the covenant to be lost (contemporary claims notwithstanding), as the Jews had allowed the mere presence of it along with the Temple rituals to become idolatry. Even after the Solomonic Temple was destroyed and the Second Temple rebuilt, the ark was never restored. Thus the writer of Hebrews could not speak of its existence (Heb. 9:5). Likewise, nowhere does Scripture specifically prescribe the location of the alleged Temple Mount. The word “Moriah” only appears in Scripture in two places (Gen. 22:2 and 2 Chron. 3:1), and “Mount Moriah” only the one time, and this latter was David’s choice, not God’s.

Scripture does say where God has chosen to dwell forever, and it is, in fact, in Jerusalem. Psalm 132:13–14 says it plainly: “For the Lord has chosen Zion; he has desired it for his dwelling place: this is my resting place forever; here I will dwell, for I have desired it.” But this does not require a Jewish Temple to be rebuilt at all, let alone on Mt. Moriah. Even if we presumed to interpret this literally (as we shall see, we should not), and presumed that God’s “dwelling place” indicates a literal Temple, then we should more properly desire a Temple upon the higher peak of Mt. Zion rather than Moriah; for the text says, “the Lord has chosen Zion.” Now, many times, especially in the Psalms, Scripture uses “Zion” to designate the entire city of Jerusalem. But this would rather expand the available real estate rather than narrow it to the so-called Temple Mount: we should then be open to place a Temple anywhere in Jerusalem.

I will summarize all I have said to this point: Scripture nowhere designates the so-called Temple Mount as a necessary place for a Jewish Temple. It never did, God never said it, God never required it, and He does not require it now or anytime in the future.

A Re-Built Temple?

But many Christians today, swayed by the old dispensational school of theology, believe strongly that the exact location of the Temple Mount, Mt. Moriah, must be the location of a future Jewish Temple. And, of course, the problem is that large golden-domed Al Sakhra Mosque (and actually a second mosque as well, the Al Aqsa, sits within the southern wall of the Temple Mount) sits on that location. Supporters of a rebuilt Temple, therefore, wish for the day that Mosque will be removed. For example, one dispensationalist woman in the video Waiting for Armageddon (see at 1:18ff) is so committed to the claims of that system that she punctuates her tour of the Temple Mount with the exclamation: “There’s no place for that Mosque. It has to be removed.” In the same production, tour guide and dispensational scholar H. Wayne House imposes his belief in a rebuilt Temple via Photoshop: he displays a picture of the tour group with Temple Mount in the background, but has digitally cut out the Dome-of-the-Rock, and spliced in a rendering of the Jewish Temple. Voila! A digitally-answered prayer for a future re-built Jewish Temple on Mt. Moriah.

This prayer bears two parts: 1) that a future Temple must be built, and 2) that it must be built exactly where the Dome sits now.

The first claim often makes reference to Revelation 11:1–2. There John is told to “measure the temple of God.” Dispensationalists assume that this must refer to a Temple that will be built in the future. One reason for this is due to their belief that Revelation was not written until AD 90, when no Jewish Temple was left standing. But this assumption rests on highly fragile footing, surprising considering that so many people are ready to stake an international holocaust on it. But the work of Kenneth Gentry and others on the dating of Revelation has left this “late date” view severely crippled. His book Before Jerusalem Fell has established for decades now that Revelation was much more likely written before AD 70. David Chilton’s Days of Vengeance shows why such a dating allows the book to make much more sense: it mostly pertained to localized events of that time and place. And with an “early date” of AD 66 or 68 or so, it makes sense for John to be told to “measure the temple,” because the Jerusalem Temple was still standing.

Nevertheless, even if we granted that Revelation 11 speaks of a future Temple, it says absolutely nothing about where that Temple must be located. Silence. Anyone who assumes it must be Mt. Moriah, in the place of the Dome-of-the-Rock, is adding to Scripture here in a big way.

Why Not Start Tomorrow?

So we are absent any—and I mean any—Scripture mandate about where a Temple should have been, or should be located. This is no big deal to a preterist, of course, since he or she would not expect a rebuilt Temple anyway. But it should be quite freeing to a Zionist or a dispensationalist. For these people now no longer have to worry about replacing the Dome-of-the-Rock (perhaps, for my service in providing this illumination, they may desire to send a donation to American Vision). Since the whole complex of mountains called “Zion” is at their disposal, they could biblically, prophetically, start building a Temple tomorrow, or even today.

But, if the Jews want that Mount so badly as to insist on it, they should do what David did: pay fair market value. And if the Muslims don’t want to sell at any price, tough lamb chops. Go somewhere else.

Israel has control over all of Mt. Zion except the Mosque-domed Temple Mount. But Israel doesn’t need this, biblically speaking. So, I have a proposition: every Zionist, Orthodox Jew, Dispensationalist, and Premillennialist who believes there must be a rebuilt Temple ought immediately to start a foundation and a movement to build a Temple anywhere in Jerusalem that Israel already controls. This will hasten the last days and the coming of Jesus Himself!

Of course, failure to do this will be a tacit admission that all of these parties are more interested in bashing Muslims than advancing their own religion. Thus, their motivation to capture the Temple Mount when they don’t really need it will be revealed as pure envy.

Such a motivation may be masked by arguments about the special significance of the actual rock beneath that Dome—being the rock on which Abraham meant to sacrifice Isaac, or David stood, etc.—but we have already seen how none of these arguments has merit. To insist on these positions is to declare oneself in the service of the traditions of men, or ancient Jewish superstitions. Ironically, to do this puts the Christian or Jew on no better grounds than the Muslims who occupy that rock now, clinging to the superstition that Mohammed ascended to heaven from than spot.

Why trade one superstition for another? Especially with the risk of bloodshed and war, which cost David the privilege of building a Temple to begin with?

Conclusion

There is no biblical reason that any Temple should ever stand (or ever should have stood) upon Mt. Moriah. If anything, it should be upon Mt. Zion, taken either as the particular peak named Zion—a half-mile West of Mt. Moriah—or as anywhere in the general area of Jerusalem. To insist on anything more specific is to trade the dictates of Scripture for superstition.

I say let the Dome-of-the-Rock stand. In fact, I will go so far as to say that it would be non-Christian and unbiblical to call for its replacement by a Jewish Temple. Rather, in due time, Christ reigning from his current throne will spread the Gospel and subdue all His enemies—even the Muslim and Jewish enemies. He will bring them into the Church—His body—the only True Temple and Dwelling Place of God. Even Zion has been “spiritualized,” if you will—revealed to be fulfilled in the person of the Ascended Christ: “But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to innumerable angels in festal gathering, and to the assembly of the firstborn who are enrolled in heaven, and to God, the judge of all, and to the spirits of the righteous made perfect, and to Jesus, the mediator of a new covenant” (Heb. 12:22–24). (Was the writer of Hebrews really guilty of “spiritualizing” the text?!)

What is Zion but the Spirit-Indwelt people of God? What is the Temple except these same Indwelt people of God? To trade this truth for any stack of concrete blocks on any hill is to trample the Son of God underfoot and slap God in the face.

Someday, even Muslims and Jews will be converted and understand this truth. Some dispensationalists may see it, too. When that day comes, that beautiful golden-domed Mosque may just make a very pretty church.

Before then, I would hate to see it spoiled with the worthless blood of bulls and goats, and the idolatrous incantations of would be Sadducees (Heb. 9).


Permission to reprint granted by American Vision, P.O. Box 220, Powder Springs, GA 30127, 800-628-9460.


TOPICS: Theology
KEYWORDS: domeoftherock; eschatology; holyland; islam; judaism; solomonstemple; terroists; wot
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To: CynicalBear

Because that’s soooo what I’m doing...

And again I say lol...


161 posted on 12/12/2010 6:58:47 PM PST by streetpreacher (I'm not a preacher of anything; I'm just a recipient and unworthy steward of God's grace.)
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To: topcat54

The Dispensationalist seeks umbrage from the unbelieving Jew... how ironic...


162 posted on 12/12/2010 7:01:36 PM PST by streetpreacher (I'm not a preacher of anything; I'm just a recipient and unworthy steward of God's grace.)
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To: topcat54

It’s called “avoidance”. It’s not “having a hard time”; it’s a deliberate refusal to engage you on the “hard questions” so it’s just easier to hide behind “I believe it has come time agree that we will not agree” and “one day, I believe soon, we will know”... when all else fails, appeal to emotion and the “mystery” argument.


163 posted on 12/12/2010 7:06:18 PM PST by streetpreacher (I'm not a preacher of anything; I'm just a recipient and unworthy steward of God's grace.)
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To: topcat54; CynicalBear
That translation only tends to reinforce the future understanding of the passage. Would I be correct in that?

Future yes, but not about Jesus. You have to read the links I provide. Here is another:

Zech 12:10

164 posted on 12/12/2010 7:11:42 PM PST by blasater1960 (Deut 30, Psalm 111...the Torah and the Law, is attainable past, present and forever.)
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To: blasater1960
From Zech 12:10 post: "by the writers of the Christian Septuagint"

Are they being serious?

165 posted on 12/12/2010 7:23:00 PM PST by topcat54 ("Dispensationalism -- like crack for the eschatologically naive.")
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To: topcat54

The Jewish Rabbi’s of the septuagint only translated the Torah. The 5 books of Moses. There rest of the Tanakh, or “OT” was done by Christian translators.


166 posted on 12/12/2010 7:31:34 PM PST by blasater1960 (Deut 30, Psalm 111...the Torah and the Law, is attainable past, present and forever.)
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To: blasater1960

>> Future yes, but not about Jesus. You have to read the links I provide. Here is another:<<

Hey thanks! That helped me a lot. I have always had a struggle with exactly who was being talked about regarding who they were mourning for. I knew it had to be a future event but the normal Christian reference to Jesus was somewhat troubling. That link cleared it up pretty well for me. I appreciate your input.


167 posted on 12/12/2010 7:35:02 PM PST by CynicalBear
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To: CynicalBear

Sure thing FRiend


168 posted on 12/12/2010 7:36:26 PM PST by blasater1960 (Deut 30, Psalm 111...the Torah and the Law, is attainable past, present and forever.)
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To: streetpreacher

See post 164


169 posted on 12/12/2010 7:37:47 PM PST by blasater1960 (Deut 30, Psalm 111...the Torah and the Law, is attainable past, present and forever.)
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To: blasater1960
The Jewish Rabbi’s of the septuagint only translated the Torah. The 5 books of Moses. There rest of the Tanakh, or “OT” was done by Christian translators.

That's a fairy tale. The extant Hebrew Scriptures were translated by Jewish rabbis into Greek over a period of two centuries beginning in the 3rd century BC. It was completed before Christ (and, hence, before there were any Christians).

170 posted on 12/12/2010 7:55:05 PM PST by topcat54 ("Dispensationalism -- like crack for the eschatologically naive.")
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To: CynicalBear; blasater1960
the normal Christian reference to Jesus was somewhat troubling. That link cleared it up pretty well for me. I appreciate your input.

Are you saying you prefer the rabbinic Jewish explanation over and against the inspired NT interpretation given to us by the apostle John?

171 posted on 12/12/2010 7:57:47 PM PST by topcat54 ("Dispensationalism -- like crack for the eschatologically naive.")
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To: topcat54; CynicalBear; blasater1960

Unbelievable.


172 posted on 12/12/2010 9:13:17 PM PST by streetpreacher (I'm not a preacher of anything; I'm just a recipient and unworthy steward of God's grace.)
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To: topcat54
That's a fairy tale. The extant Hebrew Scriptures were translated by Jewish rabbis into Greek over a period of two centuries beginning in the 3rd century BC. It was completed before Christ (and, hence, before there were any Christians).

Not a fairy tale. Documented fact.

From Rabbi Singer:

...the Septuagint in our hands today is not a Jewish document, but rather a Christian one. The original Septuagint, created 2,200 years ago by 72 Jewish translators, was a Greek translation of the Five Books of Moses alone. It therefore did not contain prophetic Books of the Bible such as Isaiah, which you asserted that Matthew quoted from. The Septuagint as we have it today, which includes the Prophets and Writings as well, is a product of the church, not the Jewish people. In fact, the Septuagint remains the official Old Testament of the Greek Orthodox Church, and the manuscripts that consist of our Septuagint today date to the third century C.E. The fact that additional books known as the Apocrypha, which are uniquely sacred to the Roman Catholic and Orthodox Church, are found in the Septuagint should raise a red flag to those inquiring into the Jewishness of the Septuagint.

Christians such as Origin and Lucian (third and fourth century C.E.) had an enormous impact on creating and shaping the Septuagint that missionaries use to advance their untenable arguments against Judaism. In essence, the present Septuagint is largely a post-second century Christian translation of the Bible, used zealously by the church throughout the centuries as an indispensable apologetic instrument to defend and sustain Christological alterations of the Jewish scriptures.

The fact that the original Septuagint translated by rabbis more than 22 centuries ago was only of the Pentateuch and not of prophetic books of the Bible such as Isaiah is confirmed by countless sources including the ancient Letter of Aristeas, which is the earliest attestation to the existence of the Septuagint. The Talmud also states this explicitly in Tractate Megillah (9a), and Josephus as well affirms that the Septuagint was a translation only of the Law of Moses in his preface to Antiquities of the Jews.1 Moreover, Jerome, a church father and Bible translator who could hardly be construed as friendly to Judaism, affirms Josephus' statement regarding the authorship of the Septuagint in his preface to The Book of Hebrew Questions.2 Likewise, the Anchor Bible Dictionary reports precisely this point in the opening sentence of its article on the Septuagint which states, "The word 'Septuagint,' (from Lat septuaginta = 70; hence the abbreviation LXX) derives from a story that 72 elders translated the Pentateuch into Greek; the term therefore applied originally only to those five books."3

In fact, Dr. F.F. Bruce, the preeminent professor of Biblical exegesis, keenly points out that, strictly speaking, the Septuagint deals only with the Pentateuch and not the whole Old Testament. Bruce writes, "The Jews might have gone on at a later time to authorize a standard text of the rest of the Septuagint, but . . . lost interest in the Septuagint altogether. With but few exceptions, every manuscript of the Septuagint which has come down to our day was copied and preserved in Christian, not Jewish, circles."4 This is important to note because the manuscripts which consist of our LXX today date to the third century AD. Although there are fragments which pre-date Christianity and some of the Hebrew DSS agree with the LXX, the majority of manuscripts we have of the LXX date well into the Christian era. And, not all of these agree.

Footnotes:Josephus, preface to Antiquities of the Jews, section 3. For Josephus' detailed description of events surrounding the original authorship of the Septuagint, see Josephus, Antiquities of the Jews, XII, ii, 1-4. 2 St. Jerome, preface to The Book of Hebrew Questions, Nicene and Post-Nicene Fathers, Volume 6. Pg. 487. Hendrickson. 3The Anchor Bible Dictionary. Excerpt from "Septuagint," New York: Vol. 5, pg. 1093. 4 F.F. Bruce, The Books and the Parchments, p.150.

Septuagint Online, Kalvesmaki:

Philo of Alexandria (fl. 1st c CE) confirms that only the Torah was commissioned to be translated, and some modern scholars have concurred, noting a kind of consistency in the translation style of the Greek Penteteuch. Over the course of the three centuries following Ptolemy's project, however, other books of the Hebrew Scriptures were translated into Greek. It is not altogether clear which book was translated when, and in what locale. It seems that sometimes a Hebrew book was translated more than once, or that a particular Greek translation was revised. In other cases, a work was composed afresh in Greek, yet was included in subsequent collections of the Scriptures. By observing technical terms and translation styles, by comparing the Greek versions to the Dead Sea Scrolls, and by comparing them to Hellenistic literature, scholars are in the process of stitching together an elusive history of the translations that eventually found their way into collections.

So....even if the whole of Tanakh was completed in LXX before Jesus, the Torah portion is the only reliable part. Nobody knows who or when the rest was done by. We do know that the authors of the LXX did not accurately translate the prophets into Hebrew. And it was further tampered with over time.

173 posted on 12/12/2010 11:54:44 PM PST by blasater1960 (Deut 30, Psalm 111...the Torah and the Law, is attainable past, present and forever.)
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To: topcat54

>> Are you saying you prefer the rabbinic Jewish explanation over and against the inspired NT interpretation given to us by the apostle John?<<

Rather then use the term “rabbinic Jewish” why don’t you use the term “those who understand the Hebrew language better then we do”? I have found several instances where a clearer understanding of individual passages was gained from looking at word usage from a Hebrew perspective. While most of the translation was very accurate there are a few instances, while not changing the overall meaning, there have been clearer understanding and context given when word usage was understood.

One thing I may not have explained to you is that I originally believed much the same as you do. It was back in the early 70’s that I began to have questions and started to earnestly study. It has been a gratifying and enlightening journey.

I understand that you have your view but I would suggest that you spend some time researching the dispensational side. The internet makes it very easy these days. You may already have done what you believe is an adequate study and if that is the case I respect your right to have your view. I just believe that with careful, prayerful study asking God to give you His truth it will at least give you a better understanding of why we believe as we do. Don’t take someone else’s interpretation without questioning it as I know you will. Check their Biblical reference compared to the views of others then ask God to help you understand.


174 posted on 12/13/2010 5:53:16 AM PST by CynicalBear
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To: topcat54
>> over and against the inspired NT interpretation given to us by the apostle John?<<

Keep in mind that John did not write in English. It had to be translated. I always use the example of the word “love”. In English we can love our children, love our wife, make love to our wife, love a good meal, or love the weather. Which type of love did Jesus ask Peter that he had for Him? In the original there is Agape, Eros, Philia, and Storge. All have simply been translated “love” in our English Bibles. You can see that a different meaning comes out when the original understanding of the word is used. When Jesus was asking Peter if he loved Him he used different words each time.

• Agápe means "love" (brotherly love) in modern day Greek, such as in the term s'agapo, which means "I love you". In Ancient Greek, it often refers to a general affection or deeper sense of "true love" rather than the attraction suggested by "eros". Agape is used in the biblical passage known as the "love chapter", 1 Corinthians 13, and is described there and throughout the New Testament as sacrificial love. Agape is also used in ancient texts to denote feelings for a good meal, one's children, and the feelings for a spouse. It can be described as the feeling of being content or holding one in high regard.

• Éros is passionate love, with sensual desire and longing. The Modern Greek word "erotas" means "intimate love;" however, eros does not have to be sexual in nature. Eros can be interpreted as a love for someone whom you love more than the philia, love of friendship. It can also apply to dating relationships as well as marriage. Plato refined his own definition: Although eros is initially felt for a person, with contemplation it becomes an appreciation of the beauty within that person, or even becomes appreciation of beauty itself. Plato does not talk of physical attraction as a necessary part of love, hence the use of the word platonic to mean, "without physical attraction." Plato also said eros helps the soul recall knowledge of beauty, and contributes to an understanding of spiritual truth. Lovers and philosophers are all inspired to seek truth by eros. The most famous ancient work on the subject of eros is Plato's Symposium, which is a discussion among the students of Socrates on the nature of eros.

• Philia means friendship in modern Greek. It is a dispassionate virtuous love, a concept developed by Aristotle. It includes loyalty to friends, family, and community, and requires virtue, equality and familiarity. In ancient texts, philos denoted a general type of love, used for love between family, between friends, a desire or enjoyment of an activity, as well as between lovers.

• Storge means "affection" in ancient and modern Greek. It is natural affection, like that felt by parents for offspring. Rarely used in ancient works, and then almost exclusively as a descriptor of relationships within the family. It is also known to express mere acceptance or putting up with situations, as in "loving" the tyrant.

175 posted on 12/13/2010 6:12:00 AM PST by CynicalBear
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To: CynicalBear; fishtank; streetpreacher; Lee N. Field; RJR_fan; Dr. Eckleburg; Gamecock
Keep in mind that John did not write in English.

Did I mention English? What does that have to do with John’s plain identification of the fulfillment of Zech. 12 with Jesus' crucifixion in John 19? And how does a commentary on the various Greek words for “love” get us any closer to a proper understanding?

You made a rather provocative statement which seemed to favor the rabbinic retranslation/interpretation of Zech 12 over and against the inspired word of God given through the apostle John. I don’t see these comments as addressing that issue.

176 posted on 12/13/2010 8:18:39 AM PST by topcat54 ("Dispensationalism -- like crack for the eschatologically naive.")
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To: CynicalBear; fishtank; streetpreacher; Lee N. Field; RJR_fan; Dr. Eckleburg; Gamecock
Rather then use the term “rabbinic Jewish” why don’t you use the term “those who understand the Hebrew language better then we do”?

Because I do not accept that premise. I see it as fundamentally flawed for several reasons.

1) There have been many worthy Hebrew scholars through the ages who happened to be Christians. When it comes to the technical issues of translating Hebrew into other languages, they can stand with the best of them.

2) The post-resurrection rabbis have a vested interest in downplaying the prophetic Scriptures as pointing conclusively to Jesus Christ. This should come as no surprise to anyone who has read their writings.

3) The apostle John provided the infallible/inspired interpretation of Zech 12 when he applied it to Christ on the cross. This is true of all the NT writers. The constant reframe of “for these things were done that the Scripture should be fulfilled” is not unique to John. Proving Christ was who He claimed to be from the OT was the task of the NT writers under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit. The post-resurrection rabbis’ interpretation was not at the same level, and does not carry this divine authority. Physical genetics does not trump spiritual genetics. God the Father provides His people with the means to understand His word by imparting the Spirit. The rabbis who deny Messiah has come in the flesh do not share in that blessing.

One thing I may not have explained to you is that I originally believed much the same as you do. … I understand that you have your view but I would suggest that you spend some time researching the dispensational side.

And I used to be a die-hard dispensationalist. I have studied it extensively and I know its many weaknesses. It starts with a fundamentally unbiblical premise -- the radical distinction between Israel and the Church -- and then deteriorates from there. E.g., The rapture doctrine was invented to support the basic theory.

177 posted on 12/13/2010 8:51:56 AM PST by topcat54 ("Dispensationalism -- like crack for the eschatologically naive.")
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To: blasater1960
The original Septuagint, created 2,200 years ago by 72 Jewish translators, was a Greek translation of the Five Books of Moses alone.

Your good rabbis are merely parroting Philo’s legend. There’s no history to support the legend.

178 posted on 12/13/2010 8:54:01 AM PST by topcat54 ("Dispensationalism -- like crack for the eschatologically naive.")
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To: CynicalBear
I have found several instances where a clearer understanding of individual passages was gained from looking at word usage from a Hebrew perspective.

You do see how you appear to be forcing the Scripture into your futurist theory by preferring post-resurrection Jewish reinterpretation over and against God’s apostles?

179 posted on 12/13/2010 8:57:41 AM PST by topcat54 ("Dispensationalism -- like crack for the eschatologically naive.")
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To: topcat54
And I used to be a die-hard dispensationalist. I have studied it extensively and I know its many weaknesses. It starts with a fundamentally unbiblical premise -- the radical distinction between Israel and the Church -- and then deteriorates from there. E.g., The rapture doctrine was invented to support the basic theory.

The thing I find most irrational about dispensationalists is that while they claim to take OT prophecies literally and criticize those who spiritualize OT prophecies-- clearly Jesus and the Apostles spiritualized OT prophecies and they accept those interpretations as legitimate but cast aspersions on Christians who follow Jesus and the Apostles method of interpretation.

180 posted on 12/13/2010 9:17:06 AM PST by the_conscience (We ought to obey God, rather than men. (Acts 5:29b))
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