Posted on 12/03/2010 4:14:50 PM PST by bibletruth
1 Timothy 2:5 ...one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.
There is NO debate here: God's Word clearly points out who the mediator is between God and men: i.e., Christ Jesus
If you believe in God's Word, who is Christ Jesus: The Word of God, then 1 Timothy 2:5 will be easily be understood as Christ the mediator.
Why not? It's perfectly scriptural - 2Macc 15:12-16
Just use the scriptural examples.
Afterall, is there any record of souls, of the deceased, being conscious and having interaction with anyone other than God (i.e. the transfiguration), except the sad King Saul/spirit of Samuel event?
Jesus said that Jarius’ daughter was asleep, while everyone present knew that she had died.
He told his disciples that deceased Lazarus was asleep.
A sidenote: The unrelated rich man/Lazarus parable is spiritual instruction on righteousness and faithfulness, and pointing out the hardness of hearts that won’t believe ‘though one rise from the dead’. And notice, ‘Lazarus’ (who was carried by angels to ‘Abraham’s bosom’) does not respond, nor is there any indication that he hears the plea of the rich man; there is only the response from ‘Abraham’.
After the Christ died, some of the ‘saints which slept arose’ and came out of their graves (just WOW! and I bet they looked perfectly healthy, not like ‘night of the living dead’ or ‘thriller’).
“...we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep........the dead in Christ shall rise first”. 1Thess. 4:15,16
My personal belief is that, just like deep sleep, or a coma, there is no knowledge of time passing. When a saint dies, though a thousand years go by, the next conscious moment (which will seem like the same day) will be the uniting with other saints and meeting the Lord in heaven.
As far as visions by those that have ‘died’ and been brought back to life; when the brain goes short on oxygen, halucinations can result. Physically, you’re dead when your blood is dead.
Good to see you Arthur.
I'm curious how you've got your knowledge of what is and isn't possible in heaven.
Gee, key word there would be CONTRIBUTES.
Your answer is a non-sequitor to my question which was....
Where does Catholicism state that there is any means to the Father other than His Son, Our Lord Jesus Christ? Where does Catholicism state that salvation is by any means other than the birth, death and resurrection of Him?
Maybe look at post 59.
Sounds like Catholics are elevating Mary’s status and making her equal with the Son of God himself.
God Bless
And that is precisely what The Catholic Church does.
Your insinuations aside, if we’re untruthful or uninformed, why did you have to dig up an obscure fringe group as a source. A “bimonthly Marian e-zine (blog)?” A bi-monthly blog? Reallty? A quick check of Alexa shows it ranked #3,000,000 in popularity. Is it possible, Iscool, that you simply went a-googling to come up with your accusation?
So I did my own googling. Turns out Benedict was petitioned by 5 Cardinals to proclaim Mary “Mediatrix.” And he REFUSED. And why? Exactly as I stated, because it can introduce confusion.
Nice try, Iscool.
>> Maybe look at post 59. Sounds like Catholics are elevating Mary’s status and making her equal with the Son of God himself. <<
Maybe look at post 69. Using Google to proof-text the entire internet in the quest for Catholic heresy is a bad idea.
You do realize that the parable of Lazarus and Abraham as told by Jesus reveals a couple things that non-Catholics might find uncomfortable to accept.
First, the angels take Lazarus’ body to Abraham’s bosom and not to God. Why? Abraham is the “father” of the Jewish faithful. Note that Abraham is awake and able to hear and see the rich man.
Second, Abraham’s response to the rich man is that there is a chasm separating the two places, and even if one were to desire to cross from one place to the other, one couldn’t. In order to have such a desire, one would have to have an awareness of one’s situation.
Third, the rich man does not cry out to Lazarus, rather his prayer is directed to Abraham. He asks Abraham to send Lazarus to his brothers so that they will not end up in the same place. Abraham does not refuse for the reason that he cannot do such, rather, Abraham refuses because he says the brothers will not believe since they have not believed after having heard Moses and the prophets.
There are many lessons in this parable, which is typical of all parables. Hardness of heart is but one of them.
Sidenote: I have attended many protestant funerals and at each and every one the preacher/minister says quite unequivocally that the deceased is in heaven, Praise be to God.
So which is it? Does the soul of the deceased reside in heaven with Jesus or does the soul merely exist in limbo awaiting the final day whereupon it will learn its eternal fate?
Hey, I’m from Vegas too!
But, back to the subject at hand.
As the good Doc before you, you do not directly answer the question as stated. I do not deny that Catholics have a great reverence for Mary, I do not deny that many of our practices outside of the Mass are focused on her and her example to us of the perfect disciple of Christ. She is what she is because He is who He is. It’s that simple. Just as with each and every Christian, we are not saved without Him.
Now the word “equally” seems to have come into play in this thread and non-Catholics would like others to believe that Catholics teach that Mary is “equal” to Christ. Not true and there is nothing in Catholic doctrine that you can argue here that says otherwise.
What Catholics believe is that because of Jesus, His life, His death and His resurrection, we are sharers in His divinity and His sonship. We too are heirs to the Kingdom of God and will one day enjoy the glorious reward of heaven.
Mary is equal to Jesus only in that she is a daughter of God, adopted by the blood of Christ and shares in the reward of eternal life in heaven with God. She is what every Christian should aspire to.
And if you would like to truly get on the path to real salvation, not just head knowledge about Jesus..please call 206-315-4836. Free recorded mental exercise...be still..used widely now by our troopers! Because it works.
A friend told me that if Protestants understood Catholics, instead of their hostile caricature of it, they would understand that neither Mary nor any other saint "mediates between God and men" in addition to or apart from Christ, but always, only, and strictly between men and the God-man, Christ Jesus Our Lord.
They would further understand that objections to that apply equally well to any other intercessory prayer by Christians on behalf of each other, because all of it is mediation between the Christian being prayed for and the Redeemer.
I considered that I may have erred and some fringe sight made up the fact that your pope Benedict calls Mary the Mediatrix...
So here it is from another site...Read it and weep...
It doesn't matter which site posts the unfortunate news, it the message, not the messenger...
29 Jesus answered and said to them, “You are mistaken, not knowing the Scriptures nor the power of God. 30 For in the resurrection they neither marry nor are given in marriage, but are like angels of God[b] in heaven. 31 But concerning the resurrection of the dead, have you not read what was spoken to you by God, saying, 32 ‘I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob’?[c] God is not the God of the dead, but of the living.” 33 And when the multitudes heard this, they were astonished at His teaching. -- Matthew 22:29-33
20 Now Martha, as soon as she heard that Jesus was coming, went and met Him, but Mary was sitting in the house. 21 Now Martha said to Jesus, “Lord, if You had been here, my brother would not have died. 22 But even now I know that whatever You ask of God, God will give You.”
23 Jesus said to her, “Your brother will rise again.”
24 Martha said to Him, “I know that he will rise again in the resurrection at the last day.”
25 Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in Me, though he may die, he shall live. 26 And whoever lives and believes in Me shall never die. Do you believe this?”
27 She said to Him, “Yes, Lord, I believe that You are the Christ, the Son of God, who is to come into the world.” -- John 11:20-27
Read it and weep.
I read it and did not weep. Rather, I read it and rejoiced.
For unto to us a child was born of the Virgin Mary. Unto us came our savior through the person of Mary; the human link, chosen by God to deliver salvation.
"Mediatrix of grace" and "Mediatrix between men and the Father in place of Jesus" aren't two ways of saying the same thing. The Pope said the former; you seem to be accusing him of saying the latter.
You guys flip out when you see the word "mediator" or "mediatrix" (merely the Latin feminine form of "mediator"). A "mediator" is a go-between; nothing more. If you ask someone to pray for you, you're asking them to mediate, by definition. Someone who mediates is a mediator, again by definition.
I've even seen Protestants on the 'net take this inescapable logic to its entirely reasonable conclusion, and say that Christians shouldn't ask other Christians to pray for them.
Only one little problem with that:
Now I beg you, brethren, through the Lord Jesus Christ, and through the love of the Spirit, that you strive together with me in prayers to God for me ... -- Rom 15:30
2 Continue earnestly in prayer, being vigilant in it with thanksgiving; 3 meanwhile praying also for us, that God would open to us a door for the word, to speak the mystery of Christ, for which I am also in chains, 4 that I may make it manifest, as I ought to speak. -- Col 4:2-4
1 Therefore I exhort first of all that supplications, prayers, intercessions*, and giving of thanks be made for all men ... -- 1 Tim 2:1
*"intercession," by definition, is mediation before a superior party on behalf of an inferior party. Scripture also says that Jesus "lives always to make intercession for us" (Heb 7:25), yet also that we are to intercede for one another. I suppose Hebrews 7:25 is the Protestant Paul speaking, and 1 Tim 2:1 is the Catholic Paul, who switches over to the Protestant Paul by the time he gets to 1 Tim 2:5 ??
My response:
Abusus non tollit usum
that is, "The abuse of a thing does not invalidate the legitimate use of the same thing."
Exactly, There is but one mediator between God and man ... those that seek another mediator have none..
Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.