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To: dangus
Your insinuations aside, if we’re untruthful or uninformed, why did you have to dig up an obscure fringe group as a source. A “bimonthly Marian e-zine (blog)?” A bi-monthly blog? Reallty? A quick check of Alexa shows it ranked #3,000,000 in popularity. Is it possible, Iscool, that you simply went a-googling to come up with your accusation?

I considered that I may have erred and some fringe sight made up the fact that your pope Benedict calls Mary the Mediatrix...

So here it is from another site...Read it and weep...

It doesn't matter which site posts the unfortunate news, it the message, not the messenger...

Your pope says Mary is your Mediatrix

75 posted on 12/04/2010 9:47:26 AM PST by Iscool (I don't understand all that I know...)
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To: Iscool

Read it and weep.

I read it and did not weep. Rather, I read it and rejoiced.

For unto to us a child was born of the Virgin Mary. Unto us came our savior through the person of Mary; the human link, chosen by God to deliver salvation.


77 posted on 12/04/2010 10:07:27 AM PST by Jvette
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To: Iscool
your pope Benedict calls Mary the Mediatrix

"Mediatrix of grace" and "Mediatrix between men and the Father in place of Jesus" aren't two ways of saying the same thing. The Pope said the former; you seem to be accusing him of saying the latter.

You guys flip out when you see the word "mediator" or "mediatrix" (merely the Latin feminine form of "mediator"). A "mediator" is a go-between; nothing more. If you ask someone to pray for you, you're asking them to mediate, by definition. Someone who mediates is a mediator, again by definition.

I've even seen Protestants on the 'net take this inescapable logic to its entirely reasonable conclusion, and say that Christians shouldn't ask other Christians to pray for them.

Only one little problem with that:

Now I beg you, brethren, through the Lord Jesus Christ, and through the love of the Spirit, that you strive together with me in prayers to God for me ... -- Rom 15:30

2 Continue earnestly in prayer, being vigilant in it with thanksgiving; 3 meanwhile praying also for us, that God would open to us a door for the word, to speak the mystery of Christ, for which I am also in chains, 4 that I may make it manifest, as I ought to speak. -- Col 4:2-4

1 Therefore I exhort first of all that supplications, prayers, intercessions*, and giving of thanks be made for all men ... -- 1 Tim 2:1

*"intercession," by definition, is mediation before a superior party on behalf of an inferior party. Scripture also says that Jesus "lives always to make intercession for us" (Heb 7:25), yet also that we are to intercede for one another. I suppose Hebrews 7:25 is the Protestant Paul speaking, and 1 Tim 2:1 is the Catholic Paul, who switches over to the Protestant Paul by the time he gets to 1 Tim 2:5 ??

78 posted on 12/04/2010 10:14:56 AM PST by Campion
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To: Iscool
You have an artful way of twisting words! I plainly stated that Mary, as do all the saints, mediates for us, yet she is not granted the title of Mediatrix, because it is confusing. So, first you present as if it were proof that she has been granted the title of Mediatrix an article about some people who'd LIKE to give her the title... except they were refused. Now, you come up with an article about how the Pope declares Christ "divine legislator" of the universe, the "source of all justice," "Justice in person." Yet because he uses the common noun "mediatrix" -- not the title, "Mediatrix" -- you cite that article as proof we rely on Mary, not Christ, as our Mediator/Mediatrix to God?

Yet since you seem hell-bent on slandering the doctrine of the Church, here is Pope John Paul II making very clear the position of the Church, citing infallibly declared documents to do so:

2. To understand Mary's presence on our journey to the Father, we must recognize with all the Churches that Christ is "the way, and the truth, and the life" (Jn 14:6) and the only Mediator between God and men (cf. 1 Tm 2:5). Mary is involved in Christ's unique mediation and is totally at its service. Consequently, as the Council stressed in Lumen gentium: "Mary's function as mother of men in no way obscures or diminishes this unique mediation of Christ, but rather shows its power" (n. 60). In no way do we state that Mary has a role in the Church's life apart from Christ's mediation or alongside it, as if it were a parallel or competing mediation.

Mary's unique place is owed to the merits of Christ.

As I expressly said in the Encyclical Redemptoris Mater, Mary's maternal mediation "is mediation in Christ" (n. 38). The Council explains: "The Blessed Virgin's salutary influence on men originates not in any inner necessity but in the disposition of God. It flows forth from the superabundance of the merits of Christ, rests on his mediation, depends entirely on it and draws all its power from it. It does not hinder in any way the immediate union of the faithful with Christ but, on the contrary, fosters it" (Lumen gentium, n. 60).

Now, there are plenty of titles that Mary bears which we Catholics will defend, debate and discuss with non-Catholics, "Mother of God," "Full of Grace," "Ever-Virgin", "Queen of Angels," "Embodiment of the Church," "the New Eve," "Mother of the Church," "Spiritual Vessel," "Ark of the [New] Covenant," "Gate of Heaven," "Queen of Disciples," "Immaculate Conception." Yeah, we Catholics do think highly of Mary!

So no-one's shying away from controversy or trying to conceal occulted doctrines, like the Scientologists do. It's just that "Mediatrix" is not one of them. And frankly, it's insulting the way you and your posse are always saying, "No! You Catholics really believe..." or "Your Church really says..." Maybe that stuff works with the ignorant, unchurched who shop up at your churches and call themselves Catholic because their Grandma had a rosary. But it's a pretty lame way to win an argument with someone who knows better. And the fact that you have to slander other people's religion to convince people of the truth of yours... well that says shockingly poor things about your own faith.

87 posted on 12/04/2010 10:54:14 AM PST by dangus
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To: Iscool

ANd for the record, I am now done with this conversation.


88 posted on 12/04/2010 10:57:49 AM PST by dangus
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