Why I Am Catholic: For Purgatory, Thank Heavens (Ecumenical)

WhyIAmCatholic.bloogspot.com ^ | November 2010 | Frank Weathers

[Cronos]

Dear Alex,

The Church teaches that Christ's sacrifice was "super-sufficient" for salvation. Namely, we were saved by the sacrifice of the lamb.

Nothing more is needed or can be added to Christ's sacrifice which won us our salvation.

The concept of purgatory takes away nothing from Christ's sacrifice or His winning our salvation. Souls in purgatory are those for whom Christ gave of Himself. They are saved and WILL BE in heaven, no doubt about that.

The STATE of purgatory answers the question -- nearly all of us, no matter how holy, are still unworthy at the time of our death to be in the presence of (note, just about being the presence of , nothing to do with our salvation which was already won by Christ) God

These souls are purified in purgatory -- whatever that may be, The Church is silent.

If you, dear Alex, die tomorrow, Christ's sacrifice would be sufficient for your salvation, yet some "purification" like the purification that Temple priests did would be needed before going into the presence of God.

Now as to plain talk's very valid question -- Jesus saved the thief on the cross (just as He saved us). Was the thief an exceptionally holy man? Or did Jesus Our Lord and Our God also 'cleanse' the theif and bring him to the state of purity needed to be immediately in the presence of God? I like to think the latter, however in either case, purgatory i.e. the "purification" process did happen.

The problem is that purgatory gets thought of as a place, not as a process of cleansing. It is also a place of joy, not torment

[starlifter]

So all the people who lived before Jesus went where?

And those alive today who never heard of Him go where?

[Mad Dawg]

Great question!

Um, moving on ....

No, seriously, that's a great question. I say, not the Lord (and not the Church either, as far as I know) that it has to do with that old point of friction, the relationship between time and eternity. the way temporality is embraced and invaded by eternity, and that sort of thing.

In related news, from OUR side, there is an 'imperfection' similarly embraced and invaded by perfection, and that is hinted at in Col 1:24. In one and the most important sense, "Tetelestai!" -- it is finished, perfected wrapped up, finito, DONE! But, I think we would say, there is still the gift and duty of Hope, which suggests that within that completion there is still a dynamic, a coming to perfection.

In today's reading (for us smarmily pious Cat'licks, we read (2 Pet 1:10-11) "... be the more zealous to confirm you call and election, for if you do this you will never fall; ..."

Here's how I handle this, FWIW:

Me:Whaddya mean, "be zealous to confirm yatta yatta"? Are you saying it's not confirmed in Jesus:

Peter: Shaddup! Yes, you bozo, it's confirmed and perfected in Jesus. Do you think I'm telling you to step outside of Jesus' work? Get out of town! I'm telling you the current, right now, truth of that perfection is that you are called and enabled by grace working in you not to sit back and cruise but to live in the coming to be in you of what is already accomplished.

Okay, maybe that's not so clear. Haven't had enough coffee.

[Mad Dawg]

By that reckoning the only important difference (that I can see, open to correction) is that we imagine an instant or a period of time after death when there is still some sanctification going on, while you say that it stops at death.

It is interesting in this connection to wonder about the usual Catholic teaching that "Purgatory" (which, at rock bottom is NOT held necessarily to be a place or duration) will end at the end of the world. I've never worked that out to my complete and detailed satisfaction.

[Cronos]

Neither is the Trinity explicitly mentioned

[Cronos]

Hello! And Thank you for bringing your orthodoxy to The Church, you enrich Christ's Church with your presence and faith

1. How do we know? Well, we can guess, but there's no harm in keeping on praying -- prayer is always helpful. Maybe if person A is already purified, then the prayers will help person B? Who knows? (besides GOd of course!) -- one can never pray too much!

2. We don't know anything of the ways,methods,process of purgatory -- we'd say limbo or I don't know.
I do not believe that The Church says for certain that some go straight to heaven -- we can guess at this, but we don't know. It is not wise to be too legalistic (that's something the orthodox say we are -- and sometimes I think they are right!)

[Alex Murphy]

If you, dear Alex, die tomorrow, Christ's sacrifice would be sufficient for your salvation, yet some "purification" like the purification that Temple priests did would be needed before going into the presence of God.

Allow me to parse that for better understanding. In Catholicism:

• "Salvation" does not mean "Presence of God"
• Christ's sacrifice only paid for Salvation. His shed blood is an insufficient payment for entering (directly) into the Presence of God.
• Before entering into the Presence of God, a "purification period" is required after death.
• There is no full and sufficient payment that can be made, by man or by another on his behalf, to accomplish instant purification.
• To achieve purification, an individual man must make his own "sufficient payment" via personal obedience, penance, and indulgence before death, or via time in Purgatory after death.

Did I get anything wrong?

[Cronos]

I'm sorry, but your parsing is completely wrong.

In Christianity

• "Salvation" means Salvation -- the general meaning of liberation from straitened circumstances or from other evils, and of a translation into a state of freedom and security. If you are in a state of purgatory, you ARE in a state of freedom and security because you ARE going to heaven, you're not going to hell. Purgatory is no more than washing your hands before entering the temple of God - metaphorically speaking
  
• Christ's sacrifice paid for salvation. His shed blood is sufficient payment for us to enter into the presence of God. Remember the example of washing your hands before entering the Lord's presence -- THAT is the state of purgatory
  li>Before entering into the Presence of God you need to be pure -- for the same reason that Aaronic priests had a cleanliness ritual, you too need to be purified to be able to enter into God's presence. Sin has no place in the presence of God and is burned away, hence purgatory is the process by which your sin is burnt away
  
• There is full and sufficient payment for your salvation and entrance into heaven -- that's what Christ's sacrifice was about
  
• To achieve purification,an individual man is cleansed by God -- THAT's what the purgatory process is about

It's really quite simple -- take the simple analogy of Aaronic priests washing themselves before entering the presence of God. Did the washing mean that God did not welcome them in? Or was washing the "payment" to enter in? NEITHER. Washing was the way to be pure.

in the same way, the process or state of purgatory is the metaphorical washing away of our sins to be able to bear the holiness that is God.

Does God do this completely and utterly? Yes.

Can we do anything to pay for this? NO. God (Jesus Christ) already paid

Purgatory is NOT a final test -- those who are in the state or process of purgatory are already not going to hell, their "ticket" has been paid for by Christ's sacrifice which is super-sufficient for your salvation.

[Melian]

This passage from Scripture proves to me that salvation is not by faith alone but requires works, and, therefore, proves that there must be a Purgatory:

“And by this we know that we have come to know him, if we keep his commandments. Whoever says ‘I know him’ but does not keep his commandments is a liar, and the truth is not in him, but whoever keeps his word, in him truly the love of God is perfected. By this we may know that we are in him: whoever says he abides in him ought to walk in the same way in which he walked.” (1 John 2: 3–6).

If you read on to verse 11, it becomes plain that more is required of believers than simple belief. Actions must follow belief.

Now what happens to all those who believe but whose actions are lacking? They do believe, so they shouldn’t go to Hell; but they are seriously tainted by sin so they can’t go to Heaven. Nothing impure can enter Heaven. It stands to reason that a merciful Father allows a place of purification so one can become clean and worthy to enter into Heaven.

Purgatory is an affirmation of God’s love and mercy for his children.

[Alex Murphy]

I'm sorry, but your parsing is completely wrong....Purgatory is NOT a final test -- those who are in the state or process of purgatory are already not going to hell, their "ticket" has been paid for by Christ's sacrifice which is super-sufficient for your salvation.

Please re-read my previous post. I said nothing about a "final test". I said nothing about going to hell (odd that you didn't capitalize it, BTW). I said nothing about an individual not entering the Presence of God after spending time in/completing Purgatory.

It is clear, when one considers Catholic beliefs about indulgences, that Purgatory is not an equal experience for all Christians, and that one goal of Catholics is to reduce the time they will spend in Purgatory, through personal sacrifice and behavior. At the same time, however, Catholicism teaches that Christ's sacrifice does not completely replace/eliminate the requirement to spend some time in Purgatory. Heaven may not be far away, but it is a long trip.

To paraphrase the apostle's words, "to be apart from the body is to eventually be present with the Lord."

[starlifter]

Neither is the Internet or the Dallas Cowboys.

Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.

[Mad Dawg]

If you want to get all technical ...

Some teach that Baptism removes all the effects of sin, including "the temporal penalty of sin." That's why if you want to become Catholic, if you've been validly baptized you ordinarily have to go to confession before reception, confirmation, etc. But if you have not been baptized, no confession is required.

I would think of "Dismas" as receiving the Baptism of Desire (since the 'desire' for Christ is the point, not the desire for a sacrament of which one might never have heard.

I think it's the wrong emphasis to say a perfect act of contrition (which would be a phenomenon of grace, BTW) "serves as a Plenary Indulgence." It's like saying a football player's being levitated to the end zone, "served in place of a run." It's more like plenary indulgences (and running) are that to which we take recourse because levitation and perfect acts of contrition are not usually available.

This is not authoritative. This is Mad Dawg winging it.

[Secret Agent Man]

Yes that is essentially correct. You believe the process of glorification requires a period of time after death (in purgatory). Protestants believe this happens instantaneously, just as Justification does.

And please know I never said sanctification “stops” at death. It is completed at death because Christ finishes it.

[Secret Agent Man]

Funny, why will I be unpleasantly surprised? I will be getting cleansed before going into heaven. My salvation is in Christ doing everything to save me - as yours is, not whether I believe in purgatory or not.

[Mad Dawg]

humma, humma ...

1. "Salvation" does not mean "Presence of God"
2. Christ's sacrifice only paid for Salvation. His shed blood is an insufficient payment for entering (directly) into the Presence of God.
3. Before entering into the Presence of God, a "purification period" is required after death.
4. There is no full and sufficient payment that can be made, by man or by another on his behalf, to accomplish instant purification.
5. To achieve purification, an individual man must make his own "sufficient payment" via personal obedience, penance, and indulgence before death, or via time in Purgatory after death.

And

It is clear, when one considers Catholic beliefs about indulgences, that Purgatory is not an equal experience for all Christians, and that one goal of Catholics is to reduce the time they will spend in Purgatory, through personal sacrifice and behavior. At the same time, however, Catholicism teaches that Christ's sacrifice does not completely replace/eliminate the requirement to spend some time in Purgatory. Heaven may not be far away, but it is a long trip.

This is so hard to nail down. My complaint, not with you but with the usual analogy for Purgatory is that it goes too far with the "fine", "transactional", "debt," legal tort language. Also, the language of time and place is unhelpful (except in Dante, of course, where everything is helpful, if not downright marvelous.)

In any event, though I cannot recall where, I do recall reading some learned Catholic writing that it was not necessarily true that purgatory had a duration or a place. As far as I can tell, the "non-negotiable" is only that some (most?) of the saved will undergo "purification".

1. I say that God is everywhere present, at least eschatologically. His intimate presence to those who reject him is torture.
2. Purgatory is a mercy, a gift of grace, made accessible to us by the Sacrifice of Christ. The question, I think, is not about the sufficiency of Christ's sacrifice but about HOW sanctification is perfected in sinners who have turned to Jesus.
3. Yes. For some the purification seems to take place in a dramatic moment of conversion. For others the grace of God works in their lives "through many dangers, toils, and [possible even] snares". For others the process is completed in the purgation after death.

   Some become people of virtue at conversion. For most of us the development of the 'habit' (as 'the Philsopher' says) takes time.

4. God can and does purify. I do not know if some saint's penances could entirely provide purgation for another. I say again "payment" is, IMHO, not a useful term. We're not talking about paying a debt any more than dieting is paying the debt of getting fat. (Not much less either, I would venture to say.)
5. Same objection to payment.

I hope this is clear. Right is probably too much to hope for ... But you never know.

[FourtySeven]

Good post and thread bump!

[johngrace]

I like your explanation. I even learned. I also use to listen to Catholic answers radio. You sound like them. Thanks!

[Kolokotronis]

“Yeah, but they have great food, and the Liturgy is to die for.”

Too true, too true!

[Kolokotronis]

“I’d suggest that the interesting and fruitful part of the conversation is on the question of grace and freedom.”

And even more interesting, whether that grace is created or uncreated.

[Mad Dawg]

You believe the process of glorification requires a period of time after death (in purgatory).

The period of time language is controversial among Catholics. It COULD be an instantaneous process.

How do you construe this:

[2 Cor 3:18] And we all, with unveiled face, beholding the glory of the Lord, are being changed into his likeness from one degree of glory to another; for this comes from the Lord who is the Spirit.