[Cronos]

Dear Alex,

The Church teaches that Christ's sacrifice was "super-sufficient" for salvation. Namely, we were saved by the sacrifice of the lamb.

Nothing more is needed or can be added to Christ's sacrifice which won us our salvation.

The concept of purgatory takes away nothing from Christ's sacrifice or His winning our salvation. Souls in purgatory are those for whom Christ gave of Himself. They are saved and WILL BE in heaven, no doubt about that.

The STATE of purgatory answers the question -- nearly all of us, no matter how holy, are still unworthy at the time of our death to be in the presence of (note, just about being the presence of , nothing to do with our salvation which was already won by Christ) God

These souls are purified in purgatory -- whatever that may be, The Church is silent.

If you, dear Alex, die tomorrow, Christ's sacrifice would be sufficient for your salvation, yet some "purification" like the purification that Temple priests did would be needed before going into the presence of God.

Now as to plain talk's very valid question -- Jesus saved the thief on the cross (just as He saved us). Was the thief an exceptionally holy man? Or did Jesus Our Lord and Our God also 'cleanse' the theif and bring him to the state of purity needed to be immediately in the presence of God? I like to think the latter, however in either case, purgatory i.e. the "purification" process did happen.

The problem is that purgatory gets thought of as a place, not as a process of cleansing. It is also a place of joy, not torment

[Alex Murphy]

If you, dear Alex, die tomorrow, Christ's sacrifice would be sufficient for your salvation, yet some "purification" like the purification that Temple priests did would be needed before going into the presence of God.

Allow me to parse that for better understanding. In Catholicism:

• "Salvation" does not mean "Presence of God"
• Christ's sacrifice only paid for Salvation. His shed blood is an insufficient payment for entering (directly) into the Presence of God.
• Before entering into the Presence of God, a "purification period" is required after death.
• There is no full and sufficient payment that can be made, by man or by another on his behalf, to accomplish instant purification.
• To achieve purification, an individual man must make his own "sufficient payment" via personal obedience, penance, and indulgence before death, or via time in Purgatory after death.

Did I get anything wrong?

[plain talk]

The STATE of purgatory answers the question -- nearly all of us, no matter how holy, are still unworthy at the time of our death to be in the presence of (note, just about being the presence of , nothing to do with our salvation which was already won by Christ) God

You are incorrect. Christ's salvation was sufficient. There is nothing we can do to purify ourselves - purgatory or otherwise. The only remedy is what Christ did on the cross. Purgatory is a theory invented by men. It may or may not exist. Only God knows. I have no problem with discussions like this but they are in a theoretical abstract realm and are not based on scripture.